There's a lot of toxicity on this forum, but there are also legitimate issues we'd like the team to address

There's a lot of toxicity on this forum, but there are also legitimate issues we'd like the team to address

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Zoolimar

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If you want to know my opinion, I think everyone in this forum is overreacting massively, asking impossible things and being way to clingy overall to the game.

Devs already have said they are working on fixes. They improved lag in federations, and reduced micro in the lastest minor patches. They can't solve everything at once.
I'm pretty sure they can't fix it at all. Because a lot of the problems are due to how the core features of the game function. They can put a bunch of workarounds on top, scale the population down and so on. It will improve performance and maybe lower the micromanagement/planetary-babysitting to a more sustainable level. But I don't see how they can deal with the underlying problems without reworking the core features of planetary management. Again.
 
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I'm pretty sure they can't fix it at all. Because a lot of the problems are due to how the core features of the game function. They can put a bunch of workarounds on top, scale the population down and so on. It will improve performance and maybe lower the micromanagement/planetary-babysitting to a more sustainable level. But I don't see how they can deal with the underlying problems without reworking the core features of planetary management. Again.

I can't agree more. The economy is designed to be unstable, it demands constant player attention (likely also by design) while also making it unwieldly for the AI.
 
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prismaticmarcus

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The last thing could be that they are working on a really big 3.0 patch in the background scheduled for next year, but this helps absolutely nothing when nobody knows about that NOW.
i think you've hit the nail on the head here. the fact that people will still come to the forum to post these things means that they do trust that PDS will hear them. some people are just frustrated because they feel like they're not getting a response
 
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i think you've hit the nail on the head here. the fact that people will still come to the forum to post these things means that they do trust that PDS will hear them. some people are just frustrated becaused they feel like they're not getting a response

And for what obscure reason this big overhaul would need a total silence generating so much frustration?
We are not talking about nuclear program, just a game crippled by bugs.

What is so important to hide, that they just can't say "We are working on a big overhaul, no realese secluded for now, stay tuned"

IMHO, sometimes, if someone say nothing, he just has nothing to say. And the Mrfreakes post is just that, empty words. But we will see with the next DD I guess.
 
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Enero

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People frequently mention "toxicity", but i have never got any intoxication on these forums.

I don't understand all these "etiquette". If there are complains, people should be able to express themselves without being blamed "toxic".

Toxicity is not being critical.
 
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If you want to know my opinion, I think everyone in this forum is overreacting massively, asking impossible things and being way to clingy overall to the game.
I agree. I find it quite mystifying how people can spend literal hours complaining about the game instead of e.g. playing another game that they like more. It's like a horrifying toxic relationship where someone detest their partner's guts but instead of leaving and moving on just continues to insult that person.
 
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I find it quite mystifying how people can spend literal hours complaining about the game instead of e.g. playing another game that they like more.
This mysticism is pretty easy to explain: People have no interest to quit this game ( Stellaris ) since ( plot-twist ) it's indeed liked. There's just the big if if it would work properly which means that its state is criticised and that's in Paradox responsibility.

It's like a horrifying toxic relationship where someone detest their partner's guts but instead of leaving and moving on just continues to insult that person.
You try to narrate the story that Paradox is the abused victim, right ?
 
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I think people are maybe misunderstanding what I mean by "toxicity", so here's an example:

Not toxic: "It's really irritating that the game has been in a broken state for so long, I'm really disappointed and I want it fixed. I paid for this game and I expect it to function correctly."

Toxic: "Paradox doesn't give a shit about this game, they just want to sell you shitty DLCs and line their pockets. You're wasting your time trying to communicate with the devs because they don't care."
 
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I agree. I find it quite mystifying how people can spend literal hours complaining about the game instead of e.g. playing another game that they like more. It's like a horrifying toxic relationship where someone detest their partner's guts but instead of leaving and moving on just continues to insult that person.
I think your analogy is apt (though I don't understand what's mystifying about it). I fell in love with Stellaris when I played version 1.0, it was a breath of fresh air, light and bubbly. Each major version update was like an upgrade in the relationship. Promises of future joy, followed by months of excitement. DLC releases were like new children being born. This gradual progress continued up until 1.9.1, after all the positives we decided things couldn't keep improving without some drastic changes... So Stellaris redecorated (reworks), started drinking (added major bugs), had an affair and turned to prostitution (DLC visibility experiment, mobile spin-off with plagarism, lots of small DLCs)...

Now with 2.7.2 it's 3 years later and things are pretty rough. It's hard to throw away all that was good, the happy memories and the feeling of investment. It's easy to say that people should make a clean break but there's a reason so many people stay in abusive relationships. They have hope, sometimes it's a slim hope but even that is enough to make people want to fight to make things better, rebuild, salvage something and help each other learn from past mistakes. If you love something, it's hard to stand by as it debases itself. Criticism of the game is like pointing out a drinking problem. Stellaris hears, but is unwilling to make the changes that need to be made... It's been 3 years since Stellaris was last sober, now it's sluggish and struggles to put together a sentence but you know underneath, with a bit of work, there's something truly beautiful.


Toxic: "Paradox doesn't give a shit about this game, they just want to sell you shitty DLCs and line their pockets. You're wasting your time trying to communicate with the devs because they don't care."
I don't think that a statement like this is without value. If you break it up it's got 3 parts:
1. Feeling of abandonment (fewer Devs working on the project)
2. Lack of Developer communication (the Devs being silent)
3. DLC/sales seem to be a priority, DLC quality has dropped, perhaps indicating a lack of investment or the expectation that things will only be fixed at the same time something is being sold to you. Little aftercare. (e.g. the experiment with DLC visibility, having a DLC announcement with no (free features), (bug fixes) posts as they once did).

Wheras the first message;
Not toxic: "It's really irritating that the game has been in a broken state for so long, I'm really disappointed and I want it fixed. I paid for this game and I expect it to function correctly."
Has the following parts:
1. The game is broken. (we all know that)
2. I expect something broken to be fixed. (that's implicit when you say something is broken. You aren't pointing it out because you enjoy bugs and want to keep them)

If anything I'd say the non-toxic argument is of far less value than the toxic one. By trying to sound more polite you strip away the true feelings and underlying arguments. The toxic part is the emotion, the interpretation of the actions and motives of another person or entity. Those interpretations can be wrong, but the cause for those angry feelings must exist somewhere. It takes a bit of work to unpick an angry message, but there's a great deal of meaning there if you try.

Edit: I'm not trying to advise people to be "toxic", merely saying that labeling any angry comment as toxic wastes relevant feedback. Lots of swearing, lies or personal attacks should be dealt with by the moderators (with warnings, suggestions to curb language, corrections in the case of lies, timeouts etc.) but what is left, however angrily it is presented, has value.
 
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Enero

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I think people are maybe misunderstanding what I mean by "toxicity", so here's an example:

Not toxic: "It's really irritating that the game has been in a broken state for so long, I'm really disappointed and I want it fixed. I paid for this game and I expect it to function correctly."

Toxic: "Paradox doesn't give a shit about this game, they just want to sell you shitty DLCs and line their pockets. You're wasting your time trying to communicate with the devs because they don't care."

So "toxicity" is only about a form of expression the same things?

For me, "toxicity" is more about irrational hatred and illogical narration.

Not Toxic: "Paradox doesn't give a shit about this game, they just want to sell you shitty DLCs and line their pockets. You're wasting your time trying to communicate with the devs because they don't care." - broken game (AI, UI, sectors, performance, crises...); constant DLCs; no proper communication, lies (AI bonuses, performance, bug fixing...), behave like everything is OK.

Toxic : "Stellaris is shit because there are no Trade Centers like in EU. DLCs are cancer and should be BANNED in Steam! Devs are f*cking morons, who just grab your money, let them l*ck your *ss instead, haha!"
 
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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482

Its not just about bugs in the code. Its also about obvious things like numbers being way off, or the total lack of any balance. Feels like the devs don't spend time checking the things they add to the game at all. See two examples below.

How do you explain the fact that the Prethoryn Scourge relic grants a flat 30 society research per month as a passive effect, while the Contingency relic boosts all robot assembly speed by 100% as a passive effect? This is utter nonsense, not only the fact that Robots and pop growth in general is the strongest stat in the game, but a hilarious 30 society research is like half as much as you start the game with. By the way, I have pointed this out multiple times and so have others. It has never been adressed.

How do you explain the fact that Edict capacity was introduced and now Spiritualists have their Ethic effect "edict duration" and this is now almost entirely useless?

These are not the biggest issues, but they are issues. Anyone who looks at this for 2 seconds with common sense will realize these things are just wrong.

The Prethoryn Relic passive effect is utter garbage, while the Contingency relic is among the strongest in the game.

Everyone knows Spiritualists cannot compete with Materialists at all since 2.2, especially because Pop growth drastically relies on Robots. This is constantly being brought up by the community.
The fact that the developers chose to edit a system without adressing the balance issues and making it worse, shows that they really do not care.
 
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This mysticism is pretty easy to explain: People have no interest to quite the game since said game ( Stellaris ) is ( plot-twist ) liked. There's just the big if if it would work how it's supposed to work which means that the state of the game has to be changed and that's Paradox responsibility.


You try to narrate the story that Paradox is the abused victim, right ?
It being easy to explain doesn't make it less clingy and a waste of energy and time. The analogy he is doing makes sense not in the sense that Paradox is a victim, but in the sense that the people is pathetic enough (sorry for the term, but I can't find another that fits better) to not be able to move on, like an obsessive lover would do.

Showing constantly how hooked you are won't make them believe you will ever stop buying. There is life outside of Stellaris.

EDIT: Take a shot each time I say "sense"
 
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If anything I'd say the non-toxic argument is of far less value than the toxic one. By trying to sound more polite you strip away the true feelings and underlying arguments. The toxic part is the emotion, the interpretation of the actions and motives of another person or entity. Those interpretations can be wrong, but the cause for those angry feelings must exist somewhere. It takes a bit of work to unpick an angry message, but there's a great deal of meaning there if you try.

No the truth is that with all that toxic emotion most people just dont care what the person has to say. You just immediately ignore him and move on. That goes double for a gaming forum that is supposed to be about a bit of lighthearted fun. You even drive away other posters as most people are not that interested in reading a depressing forum when they just want to have some fun playing games. I guess thats why reddit is more successful as its still fun to read.

I wonder if people that don't get this have never met these kinds of people in real life? I have kicked customers like that out to protect employees and gotten applause from other customers, and i've made sure everyone else gets help before the guy that cant behave normally. I have been in meetings with coworkers that behaved like that and they never accomplished anything other than losing the respect of their coworkers.

This is why I think most people should work a year in a customer service job to really see how behavior like that affects you and how little you care about the actual complaint.
 
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I don't think that a statement like this is without value. If you break it up it's got 3 parts:
1. Feeling of abandonment (fewer Devs working on the project)
2. Lack of Developer communication (the Devs being silent)
3. DLC/sales seem to be a priority, DLC quality has dropped, perhaps indicating a lack of investment or the expectation that things will only be fixed at the same time something is being sold to you. Little aftercare. (e.g. the experiment with DLC visibility, having a DLC announcement with no (free features), (bug fixes) posts as they once did).

I think its important to note that toxicity is not about the content of a post but about the kind of arguments/strategies you use to convey that content.
You are right that "I feel abandonded" "I want more communication" and so on are all valuable feedback.
Its not even really about politeness. "I really hate that the devs are not talking to us more, I dont think this is an acceptable behavior for a company as big as Paradox" is still a valid point that people can engage with.

What makes it toxic is when you add stuff like hyperbole and conspiracy theories to your post or if you claim that your opinion is the only one worth listening to or other ways that make an exchange of opinions harder.
If someone wants sectors fixed, because he likes sectors, that is valuable.
If someone wants sectors fixed, because the game is literally unplayable without them for everyone and the only reason that sectors arent fixed yet is because Paradox is a bunch of money hungry suits and also dropping player numbers definetely prove that sectors are the only reason why the game is failing, you have a post that has the same worthwile feedback but with a bunch of unessecary baggage that will most certainly derail the thread into meaningless shouting matches.

(Unless the content of a post is direct insults to the devs or other players of course. "I think x should be fired" or "I feel like you are an idiot and should stop posting" will never lead to anything worth talking about.)

Which is not to say that there arent a ton of people on here who just want their opinions heard, because they love(d) the game and want to see it improved.

There is just also another bunch of people who seem to think that it's their responsibility to controll the narrative on here and remove all dissenters from it by any means necessary. And that group of people needs to be moderated much more than they currently are, if we want the first group to have interesting discussions about the game.
 
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I have this problem with Stellaris that I return to the game every 2-3 months, play one or two campaigns up to about 2300 and then I feel like I wasted a lot of time for subpar entertainment. There is this love-hate relationship. You return because you would love to have fun game in this rich and original universe, play for some time and are hooked, throw in some mods to kinda solve glaring problems with vanilla, but in the end something throws you off balance (like, mid-game planet micromanagement, extremely tedious and boring wars, busywork around balancing the economy, weird "one-slot linear growth" demography system, etc., sluggish performance - probably mods could exacerbate the last one) that you feel the whole experience becomes an annoyance and decide to give it a pass. And several months later you return to repeat the cycle, sometimes on your own, sometimes because of fun MP with friends.

Of course the reason is a disconnect between the potential hidden in this game and its current state. Well, maybe next time I feel this urge to get back to Stellaris I will just try to find another 4x for the new experience. Or play boardgames with friends. That would be better both for me (less of this toxic energy) and for guys responsible for this game (one disgruntled and pressuring fan less). Win-win?
 
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I have this problem with Stellaris that I return to the game every 2-3 months, play one or two campaigns up to about 2300 and then I feel like I wasted a lot of time for subpar entertainment. There is this love-hate relationship. You return because you would love to have fun game in this rich and original universe, play for some time and are hooked, throw in some mods to kinda solve glaring problems with vanilla, but in the end something throws you off balance (like, mid-game planet micromanagement, extremely tedious and boring wars, busywork around balancing the economy, weird "one-slot linear growth" demography system, etc., sluggish performance - probably mods could exacerbate the last one) that you feel the whole experience becomes an annoyance and decide to give it a pass. And several months later you return to repeat the cycle, sometimes on your own, sometimes because of fun MP with friends.

Of course the reason is a disconnect between the potential hidden in this game and its current state. Well, maybe next time I feel this urge to get back to Stellaris I will just try to find another 4x for the new experience. Or play boardgames with friends. That would be better both for me (less of this toxic energy) and for guys responsible for this game (one disgruntled and pressuring fan less). Win-win?

I would say that many people play the game this way. I regularly read the dev diaries at thursday or friday, sometimes i forget because i do something else. But as somebody who paid deep into the game i am very interested in whats going with the game and what i have to expect. I have these 5 minutes per week to read here, sometimes i dont write any comment here for weeks/months.

And you know what? Thats totally fine. Coming back every 3-6 months with the new content, play another 20-X hours and move on is very appealing to me. I do this with many (singleplayer) games. I dont mind the 5-20 bucks for new content AND further development for better or new experiences in known universes. But the development part is now lacking behind so much now, that the base game doesnt offer a base to buy me in for new experiences. Without any coast line in sight i will give some last advice and then jump off the ship.

I would call that a lost customer for this AND future games. Is Paradox really thinking i will commit so much money again for another game in the future? I know the answer...
 
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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482
Thank you responding to this thread. Would you be so kind and outline the communication strategy for Stellaris, which medium should we follow if we want to find out, what the current roadmap is, what the hottest issues are the team is currently working on? It seems, that I fail to find these (to me) critical pieces of information about the game.
Thank you ever so much in advance.
 
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Kayden_II

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It's like a horrifying toxic relationship where someone detest their partner's guts but instead of leaving and moving on just continues to insult that person.
It being easy to explain doesn't make it less clingy and a waste of energy and time.
The analogy he is doing makes sense not in the sense that Paradox is a victim, but in the sense that the people is pathetic enough (sorry for the term, but I can't find another that fits better) to not be able to move on, like an obsessive lover would do.
I bet that these kind of narrations has to be endured by a judge ( like the one in the case between Amber Heart ( no "The Sun" ) and Jonny Depp ) when he or she had to hear a similar story about this "horrifying" and "toxic" relationship in which the "pathetic", "clingy" and "obsessive lover" had just continued to "insult" his girl.
 
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asking impossible things
Fixing the game is impossible thing?
Then maybe game development is a wrong profession choice for 'em? :D
It's like a horrifying toxic relationship where someone detest their partner's guts but instead of leaving and moving on just continues to insult that person.
Not completely correct analogy.
Devs here do not let us know, that our "relationship" is over. Like "Okay, guys, we realized, that our game drowned in bugs beyond repair, so we gonna drop it and make Stellaris 2". So we have no choice, except moving on. But they pretend, that everything is good, here is new fancy DLC for money, and soon will be more! Game is alive! Stay with us! So they are a partner, that don't let us go, feed us with empty promises and call us "toxic", when we demand any sensible results.
 
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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482
I get it. Fixing bugs is hard, and the more the game is played the more bugs are found. However, in a continuous development cycle like Stellaris's an effective team needs to have the resources to address the new issues as they are introduced by the new content. Nobody is expecting a completely bug-free game, but your meme is correct in that, over the development cycle of Stellaris, bugs and gameplay issues have been introduced by new content at a rate faster than they can be fixed. This is not the fault of the devs themselves, but of whoever is managing and allocating resources to them.

This is the most critical problem with Stellaris in my opinion, that the dev team lacks man hours to work on existing issues. Instead, they have too great a proportion of their resources dedicated to creating new content. The results are obvious and have been elaborated upon ad nauseum by the forum and myself; poor AI, bad UI, imbalanced game mechanics, tedious gameplay (especially lategame), substandard performance, and numerous bugs.

Hopefully I'm wrong and you actually are working on these issues in a substantial way, but based on the last two years and lack of communication about them I'm not willing to take that as a matter of faith any more. In the months since Federations was released, I would expect at least some sort of communication on the "big picture roadmap" of how these glaring problems are going to be alleviated both to reassure the players that they are being worked on and give of us the opportunity to engage with constructive ideas. Until something like this happens, all I can conclude is that there is no significant work being done on them. Based on the forum of late, I think a substantial number of players have concluded the same.
 
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