There's a lot of toxicity on this forum, but there are also legitimate issues we'd like the team to address

There's a lot of toxicity on this forum, but there are also legitimate issues we'd like the team to address

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Liggi

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I'm hoping that we can discuss the real issues with the game and highlight the biggest priorities here without any of the toxicity. I appreciate that a lot of people are frustrated, as they feel that Stellaris is broken, but I don't feel like the snarky comments and pessimism is really going to help resolve the situation.

So can we talk matter-of-factly here about the highest priority issues affecting the game, and request politely that the devs address these concerns?

If you want to complain, make snarky comments, put down the devs / Paradox, then that's fine, but don't do it in this particular topic as I think it would be good to keep focused.

So I'm thinking we can each just highlight the BIGGEST issue that we currently have with Stellaris, why it's an issue, how long it's been an issue, and how it could potentially be fixed.

----------

For me, it's the broken endgame crisis. Other people have said this in other threads, but I'll go over it again briefly. To summarise: the endgame crisis is EXTREMELY lethargic, and just stops expanding after a while. It seems to be to do with the fact that purging is painfully slow since the POP changes (purging a populated planet takes hundreds of years), and also the fact that the crisis tends to randomly send construction ships from one side of it's territory to the other, which massively slows down it's expansion. Adding a 25x crisis has been mostly pointless because even if you leave the game running for 100s of years, they'll still barely expand.

The crisis is supposed to be the climax of the game, and with it currently broken, it takes a LOT of the fun out of the game. It's been broken for a very, very long time now (maybe since Megacorp).
 
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I'm hoping that we can discuss the real issues with the game and highlight the biggest priorities here without any of the toxicity. I appreciate that a lot of people are frustrated, as they feel that Stellaris is broken, but I don't feel like the snarky comments and pessimism is really going to help resolve the situation.

So can we talk matter-of-factly here about the highest priority issues affecting the game, and request politely that the devs address these concerns?

If you want to complain, make snarky comments, put down the devs / Paradox, then that's fine, but don't do it in this particular topic as I think it would be good to keep focused.

So I'm thinking we can each just highlight the BIGGEST issue that we currently have with Stellaris, why it's an issue, how long it's been an issue, and how it could potentially be fixed.

EDIT: I'll also try to keep a running tally of the most commonly mentioned issues in the first post here, so that it's obvious at a glance. So:

Endgame Crisis broken: 1 vote

----------

For me, it's the broken endgame crisis. Other people have said this in other threads, but I'll go over it again briefly. To summarise: the endgame crisis is EXTREMELY lethargic, and just stops expanding after a while. It seems to be to do with the fact that purging is painfully slow since the POP changes (purging a populated planet takes hundreds of years), and also the fact that the crisis tends to randomly send construction ships from one side of it's territory to the other, which massively slows down it's expansion. Adding a 25x crisis has been mostly pointless because even if you leave the game running for 100s of years, they'll still barely expand.

The crisis is supposed to be the climax of the game, and with it currently broken, it takes a LOT of the fun out of the game. It's been broken for a very, very long time now (maybe since Megacorp).
the topics are well knows and discussed to death, in fact we have a thread already on this some days ago
 
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Your intentions are good, yet we know of what the road of hell is paved. As @Hundar said, the problems are quite know. If the devs, and i don't say they are doing it, avoid the forums on purpose then any discussion in this platform is useless. If the devs don't avoid the forums they must know what is wrong and what people think of them and the state of the game. Also you may ask people their opinion, which will degenerate in a shouting contest as everyone try to put their own pet problem on top. Crisis, performance, AI, late game, Authoritarian vs Egalitarian. Lots of people may say what is the most problematic issue and will try to campaign for it. As i said, your intentions are good, but another thread reviewing what is wrong on the game is, and my apologies if this offend you, useless :/
 
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exi123

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I appreciate people trying to offer feedback on not finding this valuable, and that's absolutely fine, but I think it might be valuable. Maybe other people will too. This is really the exact kind of snark I was trying to avoid here. If you want that, fair enough, just avoid posting it here if you can.

Time for feedback for the most broken stuff was 1,5 - 2 years ago. What happened after Megacorp until now is not explainable. We have even surpassed the state where players are just disappointed, one part has left the game behind, the other part is becoming vocal and demands fixes. The longer it takes, the more toxic it gets. I would even say that this is normal accross all playersbases out there. The current state also looks more like a maintenance mode, this angers players even more.

The last thing could be that they are working on a really big 3.0 patch in the background scheduled for next year, but this helps absolutely nothing when nobody knows about that NOW.
 
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If Paradox would listen and fix all the broken stuff then there would be no toxicity, then there would be no playerbase divided by always defending fanboys and disappointed players.

But many companys dont think in advance.
 
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I personally wouldn't make the assumption that Paradox isn't fully aware of what the issues are. Paradox definitely know what the concerns are at this point, they're not this incompetent (I hope).

These threads come up all the time and the community makes solid posts on the subject only for them to disappear onto page 2-3 without a peep from the developers or even the CAs. MrFreake, who is supposed to be the CA is pretty much silent on here, even after the calls for them to make an official thread like the one you've made here. An official thread would get so much more traction but it appears to me that Paradox isn't all that interested and would rather chase a new player-base.
 
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MrFreake_PDX

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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

buggycat.jpg
 
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I think there is a couple of just plain broken things like the endgame crisis, the sector system, the fleet manager or the military AI.
These are still broken because they dont have the manpower to fix them (see the dev diaries on the AI during federations), so telling them that they are broken is kinda pointless. I guess making a priority list is stil helpfull, so that they know where to put their limited manpower. I never reach the point where the endgame crisis is relevant for instance, so fixing that before fixing the military AI makes no sense to me. Other people have different priorities of course.

And then there are the game design issues that are more subjective. For me the biggest issues are the amount of dead mechanics (stability, crime, empire sprawl and so on) that used to be something you had to think about but mostly solve themselves these days, the stalematetastic diplomacy that federations did not adress at all and that the AI enemies you meet all feel identical to each other.
 
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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482

Hello, I would say its good to hear from you chaps, but I am sorry; this just isn't good enough anymore.
Of course, someone talking to us is better than nothing, for which I am grateful, but after two years...
I think I can speak to most people here in stating that what's wanted are patch notes and dates.

At the risk of sounding a bit toxic:

The Game is not playable in live patch.

The Game is not playable in live patch.

Switch to 2.1.3, or down to 1.9.1.

And the game speeds up like a flash!
 
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I read the forums every day.
Aha ...
I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.
And now, how about "a bit" more details like since when you collect said feedback in regards to Stellaris ? And after this detail is cleared, how about that you point out your impressions and conclusions about said feedback in regards to Stellaris "a bit" more detailed as well ?

I will leave you with this:
I need some further explanations about that. And I mean not just necessarily just from you ( "MrFreake_PDX" ), but I keep you in mind when I've further questions how explanation A or B or C etc. fits in regards to Stellaris or / and in regards to Paradox as a whole.
 
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I have posted some of my thoughts elsewhere on the issues. I wasn't going to participate in this thread for the following reasons:
I'm hoping that we can discuss the real issues with the game and highlight the biggest priorities here without any of the toxicity. I appreciate that a lot of people are frustrated, as they feel that Stellaris is broken, but I don't feel like the snarky comments and pessimism is really going to help resolve the situation.
It's not a long quote, but there's a lot to unpack there.

"Real issues"
The use of the word real implies the contrary exists, that there are fake/imaginary issues. The idea that some issues aren't "Real" or worthy is a subtle, unprovoked attack on legitimate issues in the first line.

"without the toxicity"
This implies toxicity in other recent threads. Accusations of toxicity derail legitimate conversations. The word toxic itself used as a form of misdirection or ad-hominem attack (that target the person and not the meaning of their words, in this case that you shouldn't listen to someone because they aren't polite).

Imagine if you said "this french bread is a bit moldy and tastes funny" in a restaurant and the response included the phrase "discuss the issues...without the racism..." the implication is that the first party was being racist, itself a subtle personal attack that detracts from the legitimate complaint. Refuting the central point would be saying it's not moldy, it's garlic bread, it's supposed to have green on it.

It shouldn't matter if you said the initial criticism with a dozen impolite expletives or wedged between politely complementing the decor and ambiance the reason for the message is clear - the person thinks the bread is moldy. The exact form a criticism takes (polite or impolite, short or verbose, accurate or flawed, with suggested fixes or without) is independent of the reason for the criticism.

Going even further, by implying that recent discussions are toxic, without pointing to a specific example, has the effect of tarring everyone who has posted with the same brush. It is an attack on everyone. Rather like walking into a pub/shop/sporting venue and loudly proclaiming "it stinks in here!" the comment is not specific, it may be honest and heartfelt, but as it could apply to anyone, the insult could be felt by everyone.

"but I don't feel like the snarky comments and pessimism is really going to help resolve the situation"
Removing all humour, be it snark, parody, wit, levity or even (heaven forbid) memes... removes much of the personality and humanity from posts and makes them dull, cold and boring to read - which reduces engagement and is a good way of silencing detractors. There's a reason newspaper headlines are often filled with yellow journalism, while people rarely read detailed scientific articles in their original format. Emotive language drives engagement. (case in point, see the levity and memes coming from MrFreake)

While I appreciate someone trying to take charge and collate data... it's a fairly large task. The reddit megathread some time ago was an admirable job at collecting community thoughts. Yet one person doing it alone, judging what is and is not worthy of inclusion would be a tall order, and knowing what will and will not result in change is impossible. It is also stepping on the toes of Paradox staff who should be doing this themselves (MrFreake specifically). The true document of all the issues with Stellaris already exists: this forum. The thousands upon thousands of posts over several years. The toxic posts and posters have already been removed by moderators. What is left has already been sifted and sorted, the least popular issues fading into obscurity while others reach into the thousands of replies (see the megathreads), and each topic has already been voted upon with the tools given (namely the 7 reaction emojis). The nuggets of gold are sitting there waiting for anyone to see (although technically not for old posts which have been scrubbed of votes).

But it seems like, for whatever reason, this is the one place where Stellaris is both listening and speaking...
I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say.
The silence at times feels like a "Policy of deliberate ambiguity", as though the players are a foreign hostile nation and bug fixes are nuclear weapons you want to keep hidden and unknown. It's a no comment in the face of an uncomfortable question. The Glomar response (We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the information requested but, hypothetically, if such data were to exist, the subject matter would be classified, and could not be disclosed). Silence itself is a choice, it is a statement, a weapon. It hides the truth and drives a wedge between us all. It is harmful.

I'm sorry that you can't say more. Can't do more. Whatever the reason is I hope that the Stellaris team gets the resources it needs to fix things. I've been playing 1.9.1 for a few days, the game has lost so much since then it isn't funny. I don't know what of the multitude of issues is most important, if anyone is interested, here are my recent thoughts on current issues:
 
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While I do think this thread is redundant (but hell you did actually get a response) I do agree Liggi that criticism, including my own, is rapidly leaving the boundaries of ordinary politeness. There is finding humour in a bad situation, and there is the snarky stuff I am currently coming up with. I will try to ease off with it, but I think we all earned the right to vent a bit. I am frankly surprised we were able to keep a lid on it for so long, it's only today that things started to get a bit ugly. That being said, I think the vast majority of people here have said what they felt was wrong with the game; no more, no less. The ball is in Paradox's court now.
 
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Ambereyed

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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482

You don't respond in ANY thread, be honest. Everything we have is dev diary from time to time. We don't have any communication from you about most important problems.

Look on your friends from ck3 forum. There is mayor bug in newest patch and devs could write a post with explanation the same day. In Stellaris we have crippling issues from years and we even cannot hear simple "sorry, it's hard, we're trying". It's complete silence.

In Stellaris forum nobody hears devs voice. Because there isn't any.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I'm playing this game since release and I'm just fed up when 4 years after release I see how unpolished and bugged this game still is.
 
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Borgratz

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I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482

First, even though "we" of course know that you are reading the forums, it is always nice to see the occasional confirmation of what we know :). So thanks for that.

And secondly, I find posting that image (you are not the first paradox employe to do so :>) as a "defense" for why your game is in the state its in is a bit of a strawman. Yeah, there will always be some bugs left in the code, thats just a reality of working with a complex code, but very few players are actually demanding a bug free game. We are just asking for a level of quality that many other software and gaming companies achieve on a regular basis, even within paradox entertainment.
A level of quality, which Stellaris is currently lacking.

I believe you guys, when you tell us that these bugs dont exist, because you dont care about fixing them. But the reason that they exist is not because of some natural law of coding. Its because of something that went wrong at your end and which is your responsibility to fix.


There was a bunch of really great communication around federations. And we got a couple of really critical repairs afterwards.
But since then it has gone back to talking about new sidecontent, even though huge parts of the core game are quite literally not working. There should have been some adjustment to deal with that by now. More programmers, different approach to how you design the game, change in coding culture ... something. And from the outisde it looks like that has not been the case at all.
 
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FlyingPhoenix

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I have posted some of my thoughts elsewhere on the issues. I wasn't going to participate in this thread for the following reasons:
It's not a long quote, but there's a lot to unpack there.

"Real issues"
The use of the word real implies the contrary exists, that there are fake/imaginary issues. The idea that some issues aren't "Real" or worthy is a subtle, unprovoked attack on legitimate issues in the first line.

"without the toxicity"
This implies toxicity in other recent threads. Accusations of toxicity derail legitimate conversations. The word toxic itself used as a form of misdirection or ad-hominem attack (that target the person and not the meaning of their words, in this case that you shouldn't listen to someone because they aren't polite).

Imagine if you said "this french bread is a bit moldy and tastes funny" in a restaurant and the response included the phrase "discuss the issues...without the racism..." the implication is that the first party was being racist, itself a subtle personal attack that detracts from the legitimate complaint. Refuting the central point would be saying it's not moldy, it's garlic bread, it's supposed to have green on it.

It shouldn't matter if you said the initial criticism with a dozen impolite expletives or wedged between politely complementing the decor and ambiance the reason for the message is clear - the person thinks the bread is moldy. The exact form a criticism takes (polite or impolite, short or verbose, accurate or flawed, with suggested fixes or without) is independent of the reason for the criticism.

Going even further, by implying that recent discussions are toxic, without pointing to a specific example, has the effect of tarring everyone who has posted with the same brush. It is an attack on everyone. Rather like walking into a pub/shop/sporting venue and loudly proclaiming "it stinks in here!" the comment is not specific, it may be honest and heartfelt, but as it could apply to anyone, the insult could be felt by everyone.

"but I don't feel like the snarky comments and pessimism is really going to help resolve the situation"
Removing all humour, be it snark, parody, wit, levity or even (heaven forbid) memes... removes much of the personality and humanity from posts and makes them dull, cold and boring to read - which reduces engagement and is a good way of silencing detractors. There's a reason newspaper headlines are often filled with yellow journalism, while people rarely read detailed scientific articles in their original format. Emotive language drives engagement. (case in point, see the levity and memes coming from MrFreake)

While I appreciate someone trying to take charge and collate data... it's a fairly large task. The reddit megathread some time ago was an admirable job at collecting community thoughts. Yet one person doing it alone, judging what is and is not worthy of inclusion would be a tall order, and knowing what will and will not result in change is impossible. It is also stepping on the toes of Paradox staff who should be doing this themselves (MrFreake specifically). The true document of all the issues with Stellaris already exists: this forum. The thousands upon thousands of posts over several years. The toxic posts and posters have already been removed by moderators. What is left has already been sifted and sorted, the least popular issues fading into obscurity while others reach into the thousands of replies (see the megathreads), and each topic has already been voted upon with the tools given (namely the 7 reaction emojis). The nuggets of gold are sitting there waiting for anyone to see (although technically not for old posts which have been scrubbed of votes).

But it seems like, for whatever reason, this is the one place where Stellaris is both listening and speaking...

The silence at times feels like a "Policy of deliberate ambiguity", as though the players are a foreign hostile nation and bug fixes are nuclear weapons you want to keep hidden and unknown. It's a no comment in the face of an uncomfortable question. The Glomar response (We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the information requested but, hypothetically, if such data were to exist, the subject matter would be classified, and could not be disclosed). Silence itself is a choice, it is a statement, a weapon. It hides the truth and drives a wedge between us all. It is harmful.

I'm sorry that you can't say more. Can't do more. Whatever the reason is I hope that the Stellaris team gets the resources it needs to fix things. I've been playing 1.9.1 for a few days, the game has lost so much since then it isn't funny. I don't know what of the multitude of issues is most important, if anyone is interested, here are my recent thoughts on current issues:
This is exceptionally well said.
 
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Pellaken

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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say.
If I can be blunt, I'm more concerned with what you are not allowed to say. I've gotten the impression from various teams whenever I do ask questions that get answers that they really want to say a lot more, but that such answers would not be acceptable to the suits. For example "yes, we do ignore some bugs if they do not impact gameplay in a major way and only bother one person" and/or "no, we are never going to fix that, its too minor and we have better things to do". I admit this mostly comes from my experience with the HoI4 team, but I've seen the stellaris team back way the heck off after asking for and getting feedback.

I said as much here:
the DD is full of questions posed by the players and answers given by the developers. This is a good, healthy development that we, as players, should be encouraging, not insulting/discouraging. Stellaris' dev team has always given me the impression that they care about their players. If you want to see what happens when a pdx dev team does not care about their players just take a look at HoI4
(emphasis added for this post)
and this prediction, from where I'm sitting, is coming true 100%.

If the problem is toxicity, ban the toxic users. Things are not going in a healthy direction right now in terms of the relationship between the devs and the players. It started with these Q&A's, got worse over the summer, and is showing its strain here in the fall. Please; Do not let us get into winter with relations in such disrepair.
 
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Silyus

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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482
Whilst I appreciate that devs and CMs spend some time to check out the forum every day, I believe that a silent observation gives the impression of not listening to the community. You have to understand that we don't have access to the company slack channels or internal message boards, so we don't know if the issues that are discussed here are even acknowledged, let alone being worked on.

If someone post detailed issues here over a year, only to be met with a wall of silence over and over again, this inevitably generate toxicity. This toxicity often spills into parts of the games that they like, spoiling the whole experience (e.g. the "dead game" meme). Multiply this for several users and it's not surprising to get a toxic forum.

In this thread the community is currently gathering a summary of all the mayor issues in the current implementation of Stellaris. I believe that most (if not all) the criticism presented there is constructive in nature and it is representative of the player's experience which, it's always worth reminding, it's extremely different than the dev's experience. Hence its value in improving the game we all love.

If you are interested in reducing the toxicity I suggest to follow up that community feedback with some sort of official reply.

For instance, making an official post where the most recurring issues are reported, where each one is coupled with a dev commentary aimed to (1) acknowledge the issue and (2) stating the concrete steps that will be undertaken to mitigate/solve it, may be a beneficial first step in addressing people's complains.
 
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DrFranknfurter

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While I do think this thread is redundant (but hell you did actually get a response) I do agree Liggi that criticism, including my own, is rapidly leaving the boundaries of ordinary politeness. There is finding humour in a bad situation, and there is the snarky stuff I am currently coming up with. I will try to ease off with it, but I think we all earned the right to vent a bit. I am frankly surprised we were able to keep a lid on it for so long, it's only today that things started to get a bit ugly. That being said, I think the vast majority of people here have said what they felt was wrong with the game; no more, no less. The ball is in Paradox's court now.
I worry I've gotten a bit too heated in my language. I know I feel unreasonably angry with the situation at the moment. You wouldn't think it from my posts but I've tried very hard to tone them down repeatedly. Unfortunately with each pass I delete one thing and add something else (hence the length), and there's always far more left unsaid. But I think I've gotten most of the biggest issues off my chest.

This is exceptionally well said.
Thank you for reading and your comment. I was worried I was being too forceful. I deleted it once and closed the window, but the half-written comment popped back into existence thanks to the forum saving posts. Knowing at least one person understands makes writing worthwhile (though I'm afraid I still find it exhausting and not always easy to continue the discussions).
 
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otro_dia

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If you want to know my opinion, I think everyone in this forum is overreacting massively, asking impossible things and being way to clingy overall to the game.

Devs already have said they are working on fixes. They improved lag in federations, and reduced micro in the lastest minor patches. They can't solve everything at once.
If they end up not fixing anything, it's up to them. And if thats the case, you all should stop being so toxic and move on.

There are way better things to do than getting so obsessed with a videogame. Like playing something else.
 
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Spartakus

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Hi!

I read the forums every day. :)

I wouldn't assume that because we're not saying anything, that we have nothing to say. The forums are a valuable
place to collect feedback from our Community, and I know for a fact the Community team, the Devs, and QA read
the forums regularly, even if they don't respond to every thread.

I will leave you with this:

View attachment 634482
I've posted my feedback several times last week, not going to do it again here except for this: Posting anything on this forum that is not a direct question to something in a dev diary feels like talking to a brick wall with regards to dev response. There is no response, not even an acklowledgment or dismissalnof the issue adressed and there certainly is no effect on the actual game. Megacorps broke the AI almost two years ago for crying out loud.
If this forum is supposed to be anything but a containment zone for us - advertizing included - this above all needs to. change. We can talk about everything else when we, you know, talk about anything again.

PS: I love that meme, but it is hardly appropriate for the systemic flaws Stellsris is suffering from.
 
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