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fasquardon

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FinnN said:
Finally I have another suggestion for an AAR reward - player treaties. Let's say I wanted to transfer my Dutch province to Lower Lorraine - right now there's no way to do it. Maybe it could be if both players took a treaty as their AAR reward we could allow game edits to be done to do things like this - transferring vassals or counties, sending hostages to each other's courts etc. I don't want to do anything like that right now, but I thought it might be a nice option to have for the future. Nothing too fancy - and with limits on what you can do (eg nothing that's possible in-game such as transferring cash, no changing lieges from AI to human, etc). What do people think?

I thought peace treaties were already availible as a sepperate thing?

I have no problem with France's Celtic vassals.

And as far as the time-travel stuff, if the Norwegian device does indeed effectively destroy everything that exists after 26 december 1066, the dead-man switch he proposes would have to react at the exact same time as the Norwegian device or _before_ the Norwegian device. Which to my mind either suggests that China and Spain have already sent sleeper agents back into the past using a less destructive time machine (in which case you'd have to make an excuse for why your time machine didn't destroy most of the universe), or they had a time machine loaded (freeze dried time travelers anyone?) and ready to go when the switch tripped...
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I have a doubt... The AAr reward about pregnancies... Are we able to choose between male or female? Or is it totaly random?

Also, i should have said this the last week, but i would like the moors in Iberia to become independent once again. There is no such thing as a small body water between Byzantion and Lisbon. ;)
 

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fasquardon said:
I thought peace treaties were already availible as a sepperate thing?

How would I go about transferring, for example, Westfriesland to Lower Lorraine then - bearing in mind we're both vassals of the same liege? It'd be just a treaty rather than a peace treaty, and that'd be one example of such am exchange making sense.

Have fun
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About the pregnancies, no, the wife just gets pregnant. Then the game engine does the usual thing, and produces a boy or girl nine months later.

You're right about the Seljuk vassals in Iberia, I will edit them accordingly.

For the player treaties, that seems reasonable to me. I think, however, that requiring both players to take it for their reward is a bit too restrictive - it would make treaties very difficult to arrange. Let's say instead that the one who is receiving a county needs to take it for their reward, with the other player indicating their agreement either here or in the AAR thread - preferably in the AAR thread, by affixing their signature to a treaty, as we've been doing.
 

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King of Men said:
For the player treaties, that seems reasonable to me. I think, however, that requiring both players to take it for their reward is a bit too restrictive - it would make treaties very difficult to arrange. Let's say instead that the one who is receiving a county needs to take it for their reward, with the other player indicating their agreement either here or in the AAR thread - preferably in the AAR thread, by affixing their signature to a treaty, as we've been doing.

I was thinking that they should be difficult to arrange - as transfers like this weren't that common (though they did happen), and you don't want people making spurious treaties as any game edits will take time for the GMs. The total cost is only 300 gold but I feel it's enough to add weight to the treaty and ensure it's a 'serious' one. I think the exceptions to this would be if one side didn't do an AAR, in which case that player would have to pay an 'arrangement fee' - something like 50 or 100 gold removed from their account. The other exception would be if you hand over something to an AI ruler with nothing in return (also no handing over of rebellious vassals to the AI as a poisoned gift) in which case only one player need be involved - though I'd imagine such a treaty would be very rare indeed.

Have fun
Finn
 

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Well, the arrangement fee should be the actual value of an AAR, then - 150 gold. :) Other people, let me know your opinion.

I'm actually a little worried about the gradual increase in the number of AAR rewards. Not only is each edit an additional chance for something to go wrong, but also rewards can be difficult to balance. If one reward is so powerful that writing an AAR becomes a dominant strategy, then we're not playing CK anymore, we're playing Writer Contest. (Those of you who played the EU2 part of the Great Game know what I'm talking about.) A fun game, but not what we signed up for! I don't think this is the case with FinnN's suggestion, it seems quite carefully balanced, but it's something we need to watch out for. In particular I think the divorce option is a bit too powerful. If you need more children, either be a man and kill your wife, or make her pregnant with an AAR. There's nothing like 1337 lit'rary skillz to make a woman soften and come into heat!
 

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King of Men said:
Well, the arrangement fee should be the actual value of an AAR, then - 150 gold. :) Other people, let me know your opinion.

I'm actually a little worried about the gradual increase in the number of AAR rewards. Not only is each edit an additional chance for something to go wrong, but also rewards can be difficult to balance. If one reward is so powerful that writing an AAR becomes a dominant strategy, then we're not playing CK anymore, we're playing Writer Contest. (Those of you who played the EU2 part of the Great Game know what I'm talking about.) A fun game, but not what we signed up for! I don't think this is the case with FinnN's suggestion, it seems quite carefully balanced, but it's something we need to watch out for. In particular I think the divorce option is a bit too powerful. If you need more children, either be a man and kill your wife, or make her pregnant with an AAR. There's nothing like 1337 lit'rary skillz to make a woman soften and come into heat!

Hehe. Well, i do opose this province swap via AAr reward. I believe such should be allowed, without being a reward as an AAr. Province swaps are a mundane thing, and also were very common in the middle ages. I remember Portugal gave provinces to Castile more then once just like that (Olivenza for example). In all other games, it is a mundane thing as well - however, CK is old, and they did not include such an option.

As for the AArs in EU2... Well, the convertion was pretty powerful indeed. China got a couple of protestant provinces that way, which, by normal means would cost around 2000 gold, and even so there was only about 20% chances of sucess! Bob did Sid a great favour, but Sid had to convert these provinces back... Protestant provinces were a good boost to chinese trade...
 

fasquardon

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King of Men said:
I think the divorce option is a bit too powerful. If you need more children, either be a man and kill your wife, or make her pregnant with an AAR. There's nothing like 1337 lit'rary skillz to make a woman soften and come into heat!

Yes, but however manly it might be, killing your wife is still against the rules. Which brings me back to where I was last session...

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King of Men said:
Well, the arrangement fee should be the actual value of an AAR, then - 150 gold. :) Other people, let me know your opinion.

See, I still don't think a province swap is an AAR's worth of stuff. I'm in agreement with EGO on this one...

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Eh? Killing your wife is only against the rules if she's your spymaster. If she is, un-appoint her and find someone else to kill her.
 

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Btw...

Last session Jorian accepted a white peace proposal from Georgia and became their vassals just like that. Vassalization proposals, are seen as white peaces, when sent to human players, so beware. I believe we should add a rule to prevent stupid situations like in the past game. "If you want to send a peace proposal to vassalize your human enemies, inform them, and if they accept it, send it - but do not in any way spam peace offers with vassalization proposals, since such is seen as a white peace on the screen".
 

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King of Men said:
Eh? Killing your wife is only against the rules if she's your spymaster. If she is, un-appoint her and find someone else to kill her.

I thought it was an exploit to kill your own courtiers?

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BurningEGO said:
Vassalization proposals, are seen as white peaces, when sent to human players, so beware.

Do we have confirmation of that now?

fasquardon
 

King of Men

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fasquardon said:
I thought it was an exploit to kill your own courtiers?

fasquardon

No - I don't know where you got this impression? Killing your own spymaster is an exploit because it almost always works. Killing your own courtiers other than spymaster is fine - there's a risk of it not working, so benefits and risks are balanced by the game.

I feel I must urge you to take my earlier words literally: You cannot kill your own spymaster. Exactly and precisely that. If you un-appoint him, he's no longer spymaster, and fair game. You also cannot ask anyone else to kill your ruler. Exactly that, and only that. It's fine to ask someone to kill your spymaster, it's only you, yourself that cannot do it.

I wonder if perhaps you are getting confused by the letter of the rules because you haven't understood the spirit? The point is to avoid suicides. If I say to you, "Please kill me now", that's suicide, and therefore forbidden. If I say "Please kill my wife", that's not suicide, so it's allowed. If I assassinate my own spymaster, I'm saying "You, go kill yourself", and what's more, it will almost always work. Suicide. But if I order the assassination of someone else in my court, then that's part of what I've got a spymaster for, so that's allowed.

Anyway. If you get confused as to whether an action is allowed, just ask yourself, 'Is this a suicide?" If it is, then it's forbidden. If it's just an ordinary murder, it's ok. I hope this clears up the point. :)


About the white peaces: If this is confirmed, we will adopt Ego's rule. If you intend to vassalise someone, give them warning.

Another point here is that fasq should strictly speaking not have been separate-peacing jorian anyway, since jorian was a vassal of Ego. Unless the war had been going on for three years?
 

FinnN

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fasquardon said:
Do we have confirmation of that now?

fasquardon

Hmm, I've never had this happen to me in SP - is it just a human-human thing maybe?

On the treaty, well the purpose of the cost is to stop spurious treaties being made just for the sake of it. I'd also say that while these sorts of things weren't unusual they certainly weren't common - or in most cases mundane. The example I gave was possibly a bit weak, but I have to say a swap of a county I wanted for one I didn't would be worth 150 gold to me in normal circumstances. I'm currently penniless thanks to the excommunication and me paying off my vassals, but in general I don't consider 150 to be that much cash - a sensible wedding or some nice events (which you get a lot of if you have high stability) and it can be covered just like that. In fact I'd possibly be willing to stump up the whole 300 in the right circumstances. Maybe I'm a bit loose with my cash though :D

Have fun
Finn
 

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King of Men said:
No - I don't know where you got this impression? Killing your own spymaster is an exploit because it almost always works.
I've had killing your own spymaster fail quite a lot in DV, and succeed with discovery almost as often as success, FYI. I concede the suicide point.
 

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I admit I'm going on hearsay with the almost-always-works part, but I stand by the suicide.
 

fasquardon

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King of Men said:
Another point here is that fasq should strictly speaking not have been separate-peacing jorian anyway, since jorian was a vassal of Ego. Unless the war had been going on for three years?

I thought it was only AI vassals.

We should probably test the vassal peace thing before the game starts. Anyone else likely to be on Vnet 60-40 minutes before game start?

And I'm confused as to who you can assasinate because generally it is killing your own courtiers that is looked down on, because it reduces badboy (though I've never seen the point, given the potential loss of piety). I think your permisiveness is confusing me :p

And personally, I don't see anything wrong with suicide. Falling on your own sword has a long tradition in Europe (even if it wasn't kindly looked upon by the church). <--- EDIT: that was an observation, not a veiled lobby for a rules change, it's not as if ruler-ordered suicide was common.

fasquardon
 
Last edited:

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Ok, but to commit suicide when ordered by someone else to do so is a bit different, so that covers the spymaster case; and as for the ruler, it makes it too easy to get out of Realm Duress and whatnot, so it's an exploit.

For the vassal thing, the intent is to avoid people rushing a Duke before the King can come to his aid, and that's just as bad with humans as with AIs. But I can see how you got confused, since there are other rules that don't apply to humans. Just don't do it again, eh?

I'll be online somewhat before time on Saturday; we can test the vassalisation thing.
 

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Well, looking through the rules thread, it looks as if myself, EGO and Jorian all broke the rules in that war, bleh. Hopefully I'll do better the next player v. player war I end up in...

Could you update the AAR reward list please KoM? I confess I'm having trouble keeping track, we've discussed so many options now...

fasquardon