There Will Be War

[El-Wrongo]

the TGS game is decieded to be started September 15. 10 pm. If this game is still scheduled for 10 am I will be able to join.

As far as the China question. I think we should have a china or a equivalent asian power, but I do also agree that china may require some beating with a nerf-bat.

BTW: Stahlgewitter2, you can be the Dutchy of Trøndelag, I promise I will be a benevolent ruler... MOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[binTravkin]

Hey anyone remembering me?

I'd like to join another Great Game.
It was my intent from the very beginning when I was trying to set up GG2.

That having said I'd really like if we could try out DV expansion.
I'm putting a lot of hope in it being more stable in MP and more fun to play in general.

Also, what is all this discussion about EU2? Why don't people want to convert to EU3NA)? I know the AI is bad, but provided there's a good amount of players (some 8 regular ones), which we shouldn't be in real trouble getting, we should be okay. I also think Pdox will soon upgrade the AI or at least the modders will do their best.
The converter should also be all done by the time we're past CK era.


Next thing - starting out as less than kings.
Well, it's your call KoM, but I'd never start as a vassal of someone, just because I want to play the actual independent country.
And the whole point here seems to be that kings are too easy because they can get other king titles. I think this can be fixed by a good set of house rules (which we kinda though up in GG2) and probably even those won't be needed with this new 'stability' rating of DV and probably a bunch of other contry-limiting factors.
Besides - there are enough of interesting kingdoms to start for everyone.
(for that matter I think HRE should be split into 4 - Germany, Italy, Burgundy and Bohemia and Byzantium liberating Bulgaria under that Dukas branch)


And the whole China outrage:
1.If it would be EU3, China, with enough effort can modernize
2.In EU2 any point about China being inferior while running china techgroup is moot. China's provinces are so rich and it can easily own so much CoTs and more rich provinces that any player trying to alter the balance even more in China's favor isn't doing any help to the game in overall at all.

 

[binTravkin]

As a compromise between spread-out-ness and compactness, any major nation which has one player in it should have at least two players. For example, nobody should be the only Russian Prince in the game, but it's quite ok to be the only Norwegian Jarl. If there is one French Duke, then there have to be at least two. And so on.

I doubt such setup will ever be achieved. If we draw from previous games, there was never more than 10 players online at a time and even if it is achieved (thanks to DV maybe), there are too many nations to 'man' to have a somewhat good distribution.
Furthermore, you can never know, what the other duke will do while you're offline (which happens every now and then) and it is very hard for GM to judge what is allowed and what not if the subjects of judgement are two dukes in a nation, whereas they both theoretically have claims on that whole nation (sparring for king title). Meanwhile, if one holds king title and is offline, it's very easy just to not attack him, unless his AI goes rampant and needs to be checked.

 

[binTravkin]

Starting as kings makes Crusading a little too easy. I also think we want to introduce the rule that URR used to limit crusading: One DOW against pagans/moslems per ruler lifetime, two if you have the Crusader trait, and you can always DOW the crusade target.

Why not make it as:
- only crusade during actual crusades(!!!), once they end, you may not take any more provinces, nor dow any more heathen enemies - this worked pretty well, everyone was improving their countries and doing diplomacy and intrigue during the first 30 or so years, then as crusades started, most were rushing to take some heathen land, while Sabaron (I think it was him), the frenchman went straight for the crusade target and ended the crusade in like year, to everyone's frustration (as of not having achieved their crusading aims).
- kings with crusader trait can crusade all the time
- mongols are always a crusade target (meaning GOLD and ILKH are legitimate targets as long as they exist)
- AI heathens dowing you are always legitimate target
- heathen land in the title you own is always legitimate target (but only that province)
- heathen county on which you have claim is always legitimate target (but only that province)
- you can only do crusading either against actual crusade targets or heathens in your continent (whereas 'your' is defined where your primary title is). For that matter, France may not invade Persia, while Georgia may (as it's considered both in Asia and Europe), while no one may invade Africa (except maybe if a christian kingdom is created after crusade to Alexandria or Tunisia and taken up by a human player). This rule was specifically made to have most muslims survive in Asia and Africa.

To add balance, if most players will be unable to crusade (because of no crusade and only you have crusader trait or been dowed by stupid AI heathen), they are likely to kick you in the back if you are trying too hard in your crusades.

 

[Lurken]

Sounds like good set of rules.

 

[binTravkin]

I am amazed how fast people forget what they had participated forging in..

 

[Sid Meier]

glad to have you binny.

 

[binTravkin]

Even if I'm pro nerfing China/boosting others?

 

[Lurken]

I am amazed how fast people forget what they had participated forging in..

It been a while since I played CKMP...and my memory isn't all that it once used to be...

 

[King of Men]

I think I would prefer the crusading rules we've already got, which have been tested in URR and worked well, and are easily enforceable. As for not playing duchies, well, Sweden is among the still-available Kingdoms; take a look at page 4 for the list of what's playable.

 

[binTravkin]

are easily enforceable

It's easy to make your king die.
Especially if you have a good heir lined up.
And it's enough with one dow to jump from regional power to powerhouse.
The crusade rule was to avoid immediate scrambling of all available armies at the game start - sight often seen in usual CKMP.

As for not playing duchies

I'm not all out wanting kingdoms, I'm ready to play duchy if that's the setup.
I'm just thinking kingdoms (and dynasties associated) are much more fun just because you know what you're playing.

Also, playing 2 duchies in each major country that has human player in it, leads to GM judgement problems, as I said, plus it's just less balanced than having 2 majors each having a human player - ensures the other major doesn't get eaten up by some third power who's unchecked by someone else.

Being the king of Sweden when everyone else are dukes is over the top. Kingdom of Sweden is like 3 Saxonies.

Also, you can't play VH as duke, because your AI liege will attack you ASAP.
Not playing VH also means less balance, as that's the difficulty where titles are hardest to claim (leading to more border stiffness).

 

[King of Men]

About making your king die: I suggest we adopt the good old rule we had in the Great Game, that forbids asking others to kill your king. It's not that easy to die in battle, especially when you want to. And anyway, it is impossible to line up a good heir more than once every 17 years or so; that's an acceptable crusade rate, if it comes to it.

I think Sweden is not equivalent to three Saxonies, for the good and simple reason that Saxony has a big, powerful friend who will object to anyone beating up on its vassals.

Also, playing 2 duchies in each major country that has human player in it, leads to GM judgement problems, as I said

I disagree. In any case, it is to be expected that the human players will only be Dukes for a few generations, three at most, and that things will then settle out into kingdoms. The duchy rule is only to have a more interesting startup phase; a hundred years in, you won't be able to tell it from the sort of setup you are suggesting.

 

[binTravkin]

Well, the Saxony has a friend argument is a double edged sword. From one side that friend is bound to disintegrate with little pushing, from other side, if it doesn't, Saxony can impose it's will on quite a lot others just by dowing them and having it's liege roll over.

 

[King of Men]

That's what makes the game interesting!

 

[binTravkin]

Hah, I know your plan now.

 

[unmerged(80749)]

BTW: Stahlgewitter2, you can be the Dutchy of Trøndelag, I promise I will be a benevolent ruler... MOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Firstly, my name is really Anders; that's what I use on Vnet and IRL.
Secondly, at least in CK 1.05 the Jarl of Trøndelag inherits the King of Norway, unless you change the laws, so I might just take you up on that offer

And thirdly, unrelated to quote, how do I kill my king/duke/count ?
I had a very bad king in a game, and he just wasn't capable of seeking a ''Soldier's death''.

~Anders

 

[binTravkin]

Could we make up a roster of what duchies have already been taken?
So we could see which ones are still left.
After scanning the threads it seems like the Balkans, including Hungary and Spain are pretty empty.

 

[BurningEGO]

Wow this thread bumped quite a lot after my post! Anyway people, let us try to speak as civilized folks, since we are in the 21th century, not in the middle ages where things were debated at sword's point.

As for China Sid, i didnt argumentate, i just asked KoM how he intended to divide China itself and what he intended to do with the population.

I am sorry if i will bring this discussion up again, but i really want you guys, specially Sid, to see how China is overpowered in 1419. I counted the population of China, Great Britain, Scandinavia, France and Iberia, so we can compare them with China.

Chinese Population (population in all Han-Cantonese cultured provinces): 760.000
Iberian Population (population in all Iberian cultured provinces): 277.700
French Population (population in all French cultured provinces): 357.000
Scandinavian Population (population in all Scandinavian cultured provinces): 84.830
Population of Great Britain (population in England, Scotland and Eire): 179.950

It takes, virtually, all of Scandinavia, Great Britain, France and Iberia to beat China in population terms. And that, is in 1419. By 1820, Chinese population will easily beat anyone's else. The bigger population at the start of the game, means a bigger population growth over every year. And since China will be pretty isolated apart from an ocasional war with Bengal (or whatever nation you guys will create) plus Japan, their provinces will never be pillaged like ours in Europe will.

So i propose the following (i know i am no GM and i have no jurisdition over the matter, but please hear me).

- Chinese population nerfed down to something between 200.000 - 300.000
- Total number of chinese starting provinces equivalent to the ones we will start in Europe (obviously some european nations will start with more and others with less, but we could always make an average number)
- Chinese tech changed to Muslim or even to Orthodox (Orthodox tech will depend on their starting population)

And IF we manage to meet the requirements in order to let sid play China (the ones KoM stated a while ago), Indian and Japanese population will have to suffer as well.

P.S. Sid, you asked who was Noddy - he plays Victoria and he knows how overpowered China is. You should know him, since you play on B&I forums after all.

Also, Sid, if China did not suffer any edits, you would be making 65 MI (with 0 infrastructure and very bad DP sliders!) and would have 150 MP by 1419. I didnt have such big income till 1520 in MTT (virtually 100 years after the start), and i only reached such high MP a few decades later.

 

[BurningEGO]

I will take Castile, but if not able to (dunno if its been picked already) i will take Flandres. I gave up the idea of Saxony since it is not really wealthy and i will have KoM as neighbour.

In either case, please, tell me which Pagan-Bashing anti rule we will have.

 

[binTravkin]

I'd like to be Scotland if it's not taken.
(though I might change my thoughts after DV comes out)

EDIT: I think the China problem would be solved with 3 neighbors - Japan, some Indian power and some in Persia and if it's EU3.