There should be real incentive to keep primitive worlds as they are. (Atleast for some playstyles)

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Elimdur

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"petty weaklings. couldn't even conquer us. now run back to the pit where you came from!" - like this?

Based on ethos and ai personality this would be a solid choice of words if you happen to meet a new fanatical purifier or the like. But you could meet some others that take that fact that you were there all the time without interfering with their business more kindly.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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1st) if you don't interfere by any reasons (you don't have time, you don't want to, you can't deal with a planet full of primitives) Observation post is basically another research station. (also don't forget that i'm talking about pre-atomic(or even pre-steam primitives. cuz they are usually not worth the enlightenment in my eyes)

Well, lets go over your reasons. "Time," it's an automatic process that costs the click of a button, their time as protectorates is similarly automatic, as is their conversion to a vassal. "Not wanting too" I'm not even going to address except to say if you don't want to play well, I can't help you but I'm also not going to take your opinion seriously when discussing game balance. "Not wanting to deal with a planet full of primitives" you understand that technological enlightenment stops them from being primitives right?

You actually missed the biggest reason not to, which is initial resource investment. You sorta cover it later so I'll respond then.

(also don't forget that i'm talking about pre-atomic(or even pre-steam primitives. cuz they are usually not worth the enlightenment in my eyes)

Okay, you're still going to be wrong if the game runs long enough to get a return on that investment, so all this tells me is that you either only play medium sized maps or start technological enlightenment to late. The overall value of 5 energy and 11 society research a month drops significantly as the game advances. Regardless of what method you use to determine when, any primitive tech level will reach the point where it's a worthwhile investment to enlighten them, even if they're in the bronze age and you're only doing it because you've reached the point in the game where you simply don't notice the cost.

2)yes. you'll gain 0.5 influence from protectorate...but later you'll need to spend 5 influence per month to integrate them.

That's true. But you're making your judgement off of prospective costs and not spent costs, you can't do that because you're not looking at the total return just the return from the protectorate. If you're ONLY looking at .5 influence a month, then you have to ONLY look at the cost of getting it. For a pre-steam primitive that's going to be at least 1000 energy and 2200 society research when compared to using the same observation station for active observation. Not worth while early game, but mid game when energy and society research are cheaper the balance tips. Late game it's not even a comparison, especially for large empires, and the question stops being resource investment and becomes one of "will I still be playing this in 200 months?" and "Will it last long enough after 200 months for me to get a return?"

If you want to talk about whether it's worthwhile to incorporate a vassal, lets say one on an 18 population world. It becomes a question of whether it's worthwhile to spend 200 influence over the course of 40 months to get a fully developed 18 population world with a space port. Given that I've spent 200 influence to forward settle a 1 population world with no development, that's actually a much easier question.

If you're looking at technological ascension strictly as a means of obtaining a new world. It's going to become 50 minerals, 1000 energy, 2200 society, and assuming your mid or late game protectorate takes 5 years to become a vassal, that's 170 influence over the space of about 400 months at the end of which you get a fully developed 18 population world with a space port.

3)if you want fleet power - get a planet and build spaceport6. it'll be cheaper and faster cuz vassal's fleet is usually non-existent.

I am, doing one barely interferes with the other and so it's easy to do both simultaneously. The resources spent to get a planet and build a spaceport6 are significant minerals and a small amount of energy and influence. The resources spent to technologically enlighten a pre-ftl civilization and then have them become a vassal are time, energy, society research, and a small amount of minerals. The overlap in resources is minimal.

and for conquering: 5*60 minerals for assault armies vs 350 for colony. pretty much the same cost.

You can conquer an FTL civilization with 3. So it's 180 versus 350, or nearly double. You can also conquer a second FTL civilization with the same 3, so it becomes 180 versus 700. Or nearly a quadruple.
 
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Slynx

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The resources spent to get a planet and build a spaceport6 are minerals and a small amount of energy, 8 per month while the colony ship is active and between 30 and 200 influence.
\
no. i've meant conquer the said primitive planet and build a spaceport on it.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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\
no. i've meant conquer the said primitive planet and build a spaceport on it.

Ooookay.... Two problems with this.

First, it doesn't change anything. The resources spent to get a planet, via conquest, and build a spaceport6 are still minerals, a small amount of energy, and influence. You remove the 8 energy to support the colony ship, replace it with the energy to support 3 armies. Influence costs end up the same. The cost to build and upgrade a starport ends up the same. So the point stands in both cases.

Secondly, well, you said it earlier but this time it makes sense.

no. you're comparing Observation Post to a captured primitive planet. you can't do it as every playstyle so this comparison is wrong.

The style of play that would have you conquer primitives is not the style of play that has you enlighten primitives. This actually IS the wrong comparison you thought was being made earlier.

It's also why pacifists get extra core worlds, because initial spread is so much more important in their strategy and because the later speed at which they recruit aliens frees up minerals that usually go to expansion.
 

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Exploit primitives as xenophiles or pacifists and your people will be pretty miserable.

Only fanatic xenophiles suffer a happiness penalty for active studies, regular xenophiles and pacifists are fine so long as the anal probing is done in a humane and respectful manner.

And the native enlightenment policy actually only angers Xenophobes, who much prefer a native policy more heavily focused on murder and enslavement.
 
Last edited:

ElFitz

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There is the fact that if you choose to turn a primitive into a protectorate they tend to block off a system or 2 from construction despite any shared borders, or build random outposts for themselves, and that can cost you some resources. Meanwhile conquering them can be a minor drain on influence due to suppression costs. Probably not an issue for a collectivist, but a non-collectivist can screw themselves over on influence by taking too many too quickly. Honestly once I have a species for each planet type I call it good on conquering natives unless they're in a tactical location, like to take a resource rich area without outpost costs, or push back enemy borders.
Sure, in the early game absolutely.

Consider late game, on a large galaxy. You have 25 systems already, a flat influence growth of 4, and a bunch of whiny factions who occasionally need some love and attention. What helps you out more at that stage, 1 more star system, possibly full of xenophobic starfish who hate being part of your grand collective, or the +1 influence you get from having a protectorate of xenophobic starfish?

How about wiping them out before they ever get to have a say ?
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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How about wiping them out before they ever get to have a say ?

Well, you're playing a pacifistic xenophile so you can't wipe them out. Nope, you have to wait for them to get into space, so it's fair, then you can go in and perform a 'peace keeping mission' to replace their racist government with an enlightened monarchy that will agree to be your protectorate.
 

gerishnakov

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The go to example for my argument in this thread is a very small news event from (I believe) Mass Effect 2, in which a pre-FTL race launches its first deep space telescope and happens to spot an Asari cruiser passing through their system. Naturally the race realises en masse that they're not alone and the Asari, who have been monitoring the race, welcome them to the galactic community. So the Asari don't 'uplift' the race, but they do establish diplomatic contact from a positive position of passive observation.
 

Foefaller

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Some related info in the patch notes for 1.5:

* Infiltration observation station mission now requires Gene Tailoring technology
* Infiltration observation station is now available with Active Interference policy
* When infiltration of a primitive world finishes, the planet now gets a large happiness boost for 20 years

# Diplomacy & Subjects
* Subjects can now always colonize inside their own borders
* It is now possible to declare war on and conquer Protectorates
* Protectorates now work the same as vassals when it comes to diplomacy and colonization
* Protectorates can now be integrated without waiting for them to become a vassal

Couple of observations:

Enlightenment no longer means possibly several decades before you can integrate their worlds if that was the endgoal; now it's just 10 years like normal vassals. The fact that they won't be able to expand via colonization (unless they have colonizable planets within their borders) will also make sure the integration cost is low (though quick napkin math estimations suggest you would have to keep them as protectorates for ~ 20-30 years or more for them to be influence-neutral, depending on the size of the planet and number of starting pops.)

Infiltration is obviously the "best" way to take a primitive world now, regardless of ethos (everyone will be able to switch to active, even if it annoys some factions) but the requirement of Gene Tailoring now means you might want to wait until you get it before trying to take over in another way.
 

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Wait... banks patch notes are up?

Oh, today's dev diary... oh boy oh boy.

Oh, in response to your post, neat but weird. Infiltration is the "best" way to take a primitive world nonviolently if you intend for them to have citizens rights. If you're intending on turning them into livestock or work slaves, the "best" way still involves three assault armies.

But with infiltration now only requiring active interference, instead of unlimited interference, it's going to become the best way for pacifists and xenophiles. In fact, the only xenophiles that will even see a negative result from this would be fanatic xenophiles and that's only a -5% happiness penalty. Easily survivable for 10 years before you change back.
 

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Wait... banks patch notes are up?

Oh, today's dev diary... oh boy oh boy.

Oh, in response to your post, neat but weird. Infiltration is the "best" way to take a primitive world nonviolently if you intend for them to have citizens rights. If you're intending on turning them into livestock or work slaves, the "best" way still involves three assault armies.

But with infiltration now only requiring active interference, instead of unlimited interference, it's going to become the best way for pacifists and xenophiles. In fact, the only xenophiles that will even see a negative result from this would be fanatic xenophiles and that's only a -5% happiness penalty. Easily survivable for 10 years before you change back.

Culture shock via invasion comes with a mineral penalty as well. They'd only be good for food until it wears of (unless their species traits and/or current tech level would allow slavery to offset the malus.)
 

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  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
Culture shock via invasion comes with a mineral penalty as well. They'd only be good for food until it wears of (unless their species traits and/or current tech level would allow slavery to offset the malus.)

Hmm... good point. Even planning for an invasion getting a 4 year lead on infiltration, it would only take you about 16 months to bridge the gap created by invading machine age primitives, and about 4 years to bridge the gap created by invading people in the early space age. Given that early space age still has a stellar shock time of 10 years, even allowing for 4 of those years being done while you're still wearing skin suits and snatching bodies, that would put this method ahead of outright invasion in the long run.

On the other hand, infiltration comes with a cost of 240 society research, and 240 energy cost plus the chance of delays and critical failure up to and including turning the race into stone-age primitives. Plus, with a delay time of 4 years, there's the opportunity cost to consider. Every one of those months you're spending 5 society and 5 energy to infiltrate and subvert the government of these aliens, I'd be getting minerals to spend on colony ships, warships, or monuments to my own greatness. It is a much closer comparison than I originally thought, but I've still gotta go with invasion as the superior route.

But invasion versus infiltration isn't what we're going to hear about most. What we're going to keep hearing about is how pacifists and xenophiles should be infiltrating, and why people don't like that.