There should be real incentive to keep primitive worlds as they are. (Atleast for some playstyles)

[The Founder]

This is where our views go into different directions. You see only material gains as a benefit.

But in holding ones own morals and traditions high does a culture not strenghen its unity? Or does a government by living up to its cultures standards not widen its influence over its citizens?

As I said before, positive Ethics Atraction and Xenophile Faction happiness will likely be the result of staying on passive policy. And with that there is never anything that could seduce you into taking them over.

you're playing space fungus\space plants\space birnd...etc
why are you trying to fit HUMAN morale into that empire?

Because this game is played exclusively by humans. Unless of course you have some new Information for us regarding intelligent alien life.

 

[Elimdur]

As I said before, positive Ethics Atraction and Xenophile Faction happiness will likely be the result of staying on passive policy. And with that there is never anything that could seduce you into taking them over.

I do agree that this already is the case, but don´t do other traditions amplify boni as well? And it would make sense here.

 

[macd21]

indeed. but it doesn't meant they'll value it the same way as humans.

How the aliens define it is irrelevant. The ethos descriptors are terms we (humans) apply to the empires in the game, not terms an alien race uses to describe itself. It doesn't matter if the Sclibarg of Xenthrop VII love other species, if they demonstrate that love by wiping out all other sentient then they're xenophobes, not xenophiles.

 

[Aziphos]

An easy way to contribute a reason for passive study could be a related civic.
Something like "Prime Directive".
It should require xenophile, disallow any invasive action towards primitives, give a unity bonus (per observation post) and trigger a positive event once a species reaches spaceage (giving unity + an opinion bonus). It would allow a more Startrek like playstyle without forcing other empires to act in similar ways.

 

[Knotz]

Incentives as in events as in your decision is acknolwedged, sure. Incentives as in make all decisions functionally equivalent -- no. Half the idea behind making a morally 'correct' decision (or roleplaying someone making a morally correct decision) is that you're foregoing personal gain. That balance between amoral decision but sweet shweet personal gain and moral decision but you get nothing (except feeling good about yourself) is what makes the whole thing compelling in the first place.

 

[macd21]

Incentives as in events as in your decision is acknolwedged, sure. Incentives as in make all decisions functionally equivalent -- no. Half the idea behind making a morally 'correct' decision (or roleplaying someone making a morally correct decision) is that you're foregoing personal gain. That balance between amoral decision but sweet shweet personal gain and moral decision but you get nothing (except feeling good about yourself) is what makes the whole thing compelling in the first place.

Not really, no. The point of playing a xenophile or pacifist is not to feel morally superior, but to engage in a different play style, with different benefits and drawbacks. You could 'play nice' with a xenophobic militarist empire and simply leave primitive worlds alone, but that's not the point.

Currently the benefits of enlightenment are such that doing so is usually a no-brainer. And no-brainer choices in a game aren't very interesting.

 

[grommile]

Enlightenment is perfectly compatible with Xenophile Pacifism: you love other peoples, and wish to provide them with protection from the cruelties of the universe.

 

[Knotz]

Not really, no. The point of playing a xenophile or pacifist is not to feel morally superior, but to engage in a different play style, with different benefits and drawbacks.

Yes. As in, as a xenophile pacifist I've decided to observe the adorable aliens at a distance and I've committed to this playstyle as it's in line with the idea I have of my xenophile pacifist empire, even though I realize I would gain more through enlightenment/vivisection.

I don't understand the draw of homogenizing every branch of a playstyle, where they more or less wind up with the same amount of drawbacks and bonuses. Balance in an overall sense, as in its feasible to play militaristic zealots as well xenophile pacifists, sure. The contrivance involved with making sure that every decision has to be equally viable, that every person needs to be placated at every instance is just bland to me tho.

 

[macd21]

Yes. As in, as a xenophile pacifist I've decided to observe the adorable aliens at a distance and I've committed to this playstyle as it's in line with the idea I have of my xenophile pacifist empire, even though I realize I would gain more through enlightenment/vivisection.

I don't understand the draw of homogenizing every branch of a playstyle, where they more or less wind up with the same amount of drawbacks and bonuses. Balance in an overall sense, as in its feasible to play militaristic zealots as well xenophile pacifists, sure. The contrivance involved with making sure that every decision has to be equally viable, that every person needs to be placated at every instance is just bland to me tho.

Whereas I find the opposite to be true. If there's an obvious best choice for an ethos then every play through with that ethos becomes samey. Having multiple viable options allows you to play different ways - one bunch of xenophiles enlightens people left and right, the other leaves them be, and each gets different benefits and costs as appropriate.

 

[Slynx]

Currently the benefits of enlightenment are such that doing so is usually a no-brainer.

enlightenment? pay energy and social to get a protectorate?
are you kidding? it may be no-brainer only for certain playstyles...but i'm not entirely sure. for others it may be a least desired choice

 

[macd21]

Enlightenment is perfectly compatible with Xenophile Pacifism: you love other peoples, and wish to provide them with protection from the cruelties of the universe.

Nobody is saying it isn't. We're saying there should be other options that give equivalent benefits.

 

[Knotz]

Whereas I find the opposite to be true. If there's an obvious best choice for an ethos then every play through with that ethos becomes samey. Having multiple viable options allows you to play different ways - one bunch of xenophiles enlightens people left and right, the other leaves them be, and each gets different benefits and costs as appropriate.

Fair, though for me I'd be happier with narrative events which acknowledge that you've made the choice but not necessarily being given a gameplay benefit to make every decision equally 'viable,' sometimes vivisection is the answer.

 

[macd21]

enlightenment? pay energy and social to get a protectorate?
are you kidding? it may be no-brainer only for certain playstyles...but i'm not entirely sure. for others it may be a least desired choice

Yes. If you're a xenophile, it's a no brainer, at least for the more advanced primitives. You get influence, easy access to another race via migration treaty and eventually vassalage>integration. Especially in the early game it's quite powerful, as they'll quickly became vassals. Later on they're just a great source of influence, allowing you to colonise more worlds.

 

[Slynx]

Yes. If you're a xenophile, it's a no brainer, at least for the more advanced primitives.

6 social for a very long period of time is way better then 500months of engightenment (2500 energy!). even vs 200 months

also protectorate is just +0.5 influence. it's like 1-2 good rivals (i usually see something like +0.33-0.66 per rival) for everyone except pacifist. so it may be a good choice for a pacifist...but xenophile can use rivalry to gain influence instead and enjoy free social points.

 

[AndragonLea]

6 social for a very long period of time is way better then 500months of engightenment (2500 energy!). even vs 200 months

also protectorate is just +0.5 influence. it's like 1-2 good rivals (i usually see something like +0.33-0.66 per rival) for everyone except pacifist. so it may be a good choice for a pacifist...but xenophile can use rivalry to gain influence instead and enjoy free social points.

Sorry, but I'm not buying that. 6 social science is 6 unupgraded basic labs - upgrade them to the biological one and you only need 3, upgrade them again and you only need 2.

You're getting the influence and sooner or later the entire planet including the space port, buildings and pops. There is nothing you can do with a planet full of pops that would be worse than 6 social science - even the tile boni and naval cap alone would eventually be better than that. Keeping them on aggressive research (if you're looking for practical benefits) should only be an option if the civ has your exact opposite ethics and if you have no access to purging or enslaving them.

 

[macd21]

6 social for a very long period of time is way better then 500months of engightenment (2500 energy!). even vs 200 months

also protectorate is just +0.5 influence. it's like 1-2 good rivals (i usually see something like +0.33-0.66 per rival) for everyone except pacifist. so it may be a good choice for a pacifist...but xenophile can use rivalry to gain influence instead and enjoy free social points.

Umm, no. The xenophile uses rivalry and protectorates to generate influence. It's not an either/or. And once you gain access to the race, you can widen your choice of colonisable planets, not to mention the other benefits they may bring (different traits etc). Enlightenment easily outweighs the costs, providing huge boosts to an early gave empire.

 

[Slynx]

Sorry, but I'm not buying that. 6 social science is 6 unupgraded basic labs - upgrade them to the biological one and you only need 3, upgrade them again and you only need 2.

no. you're comparing Observation Post to a captured primitive planet. you can't do it as every playstyle so this comparison is wrong.
you'd better compare it to Research Station
Observation Post - 50 minerals, no maintenance, 3-6 social
Research Station - 90 minerlals, 1 energy maintenance, 1-* research points. it's a miracle to find more then 6 though (not counting events like gargantua(30pts))

There is nothing you can do with a planet full of pops that would be worse than 6 social science

7 tile planet full or primitives is worse then 6 science. especially if they'll have 100 years shock due to conquering.

Enlightenment easily outweighs the costs, providing huge boosts to an early gave empire.

500-200 months for bronze-renaissance era primitives.
5 social and 5 energy per month.
you have 5 starting social. so if you find a primitives at the start of the game and try to enlighten them right away- you'll have 0 social. good luck researching something usefull...like federation or genemod

ps: i'm assuming that you both have "morale" and will not conquer primitives just to resettle 1 of your pops and purge'em after it's done.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Not really, 3 out of 6 society isn't that crippling, the difference isn't going to get past 15 per month, and if it's past 15 it means we have 5+ primitive worlds, so we're probably doing pretty well for ourselves to already own so much space. Also directly studying the locals too soon makes them resentful. One could argue that is not much of a big deal either too.

Okay, but you've missed the point entirely. You're not competing with a guy who is just doing active observation versus passive observation. What that guy is doing is technologically ascending 5 worlds, starting with the most advanced. Once they're protectorates he's already recouping the lost energy and society research by getting them to add to his fleet strength and influence each month. If it's early enough in the game and he's been unlucky in neighbors, he's popped a migration treaty and lured out at least one population which grants him an entirely different habitability range. Then once those worlds have gotten to be vassals, they add even more to his fleet strength and then he's incorporating them. Once they are incorporated, well, it's much more than 3 society research that he's gotten ahead of you by.

When he set about the path to technologically enlightening the primitives, you gained an 8 society a month research lead over him. Since he's smart he only technologically enlightened atomic and space age civilizations which means your lead lasted 40 months. Afterwards you had a 3 society a month research lead over him and he had a .5 influence research lead over you. The protectorate turned into a vassal and now you have a 3 society a month research lead over him and he has a bigger fleet than you. Now, assuming this all happened in the early game, it took his protectorate lets say 5 years to get to 40% of his tech level and become a vassal. That's an initial research lead of 320 at the end of a 40 month enlightenment, and 180 research lead by the time his protectorate becomes a vassal. Even forgetting his influence gains. How much will those 500 research points worth of green techs help you against his larger fleet?

no. you're comparing Observation Post to a captured primitive planet. you can't do it as every playstyle so this comparison is wrong.

Technological ascension also rewards you with control over a planet. It just takes longer and gives other bonuses that are usually superior to 6 society research throughout. So no, the comparison is solid in the long term.

In the short term, it's comparing 6 society research to .5 influence and a rather pathetic war ally. This is the only part where it's debatable, and then only because of the 11 society research and 5 energy difference between active observation and enlightenment. My rule of thumb is to make the decision based on technology costs as a function of the time it takes to enlighten a society in months multiplied by 22. So before I enlighten an atomic or early space age civilization, I'll need to be on society research techs that cost 880, which will be double the 440 society I've lost in the process of technological ascension. If you're wondering, that's also 11,000 research techs before I even look twice at ascending someone in the bronze age. Those ass backwards guys I leave for the violent militarists or until I'm so large that my tech penalties turn mid to late game techs into 11,000 research.

Then they become vassals and you're comparing 6 society research to a legitimately useful war ally and fleet support. With more fleet support you get a more powerful fleet which provides a significant diplomatic bonus and protects you from the more aggressive or expansive neighbors.

Then they become a planet in your empire and, well, we're not really arguing about whether having a planet is better than having a research station. But this is the only stage where you make more society research following technological enlightenment than you would have from dropping an observation post and forgetting.

There's a very early stage in the game where it's better to keep an observation post around a world, the same part where research labs and mining stations make up a significant part of your in game economy. Get past that point, and the only reason to continue observation is if you're roleplaying the Federation and you feel like saying "Prime Directive" a bunch, or if your energy gain is in the tank, possibly because you're already enlightening some other planet or you have colony ships out.

 

[gerishnakov]

how will they know that you haven't interfered with them? i though the main point of "not interfering" is that you're not spotted

By having an observation station in orbit? Surely a check could be written into the game that takes your station into account when the race 'ascends' into an FTL empire. Perhaps the first contact screen should open up and you have a special greeting from them commenting on your passive observation.

 

[Slynx]

special greeting from them commenting on your passive observation.

"petty weaklings. couldn't even conquer us. now run back to the pit where you came from!" - like this?

Technological ascension also rewards you with control over a planet. It just takes longer and gives other bonuses that are usually superior to 6 society research throughout. So no, the comparison is solid in the long term.

ehm...
1st) if you don't interfere by any reasons (you don't have time, you don't want to, you can't deal with a planet full of primitives) Observation post is basically another research station. (also don't forget that i'm talking about pre-atomic(or even pre-steam primitives. cuz they are usually not worth the enlightenment in my eyes)
2)yes. you'll gain 0.5 influence from protectorate...but later you'll need to spend 5 influence per month to integrate them.
3)if you want fleet power - get a planet and build spaceport6. it'll be cheaper and faster cuz vassal's fleet is usually non-existent.

and for conquering: 5*60 minerals for assault armies vs 350 for colony. pretty much the same cost.