"Bend over, insignificant human. We require data about your digestive tract."
There should be real incentive to keep primitive worlds as they are. (Atleast for some playstyles)
- Thread starter Elimdur
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I would like an option to 'play gods'.
You could be able to build a spaceport and get an oplation of one kind of resource (food, minerals or energy) from the planet additional to the 6 research.
The drawback would be that they somtimes could discover that you are no gods an led to a disilution of the population (riots, upriseings, wars and just suicides). The remaining pops get a modifier for 100 years (disilution) where they just produce 25%of what they could, but without happiness influence or ethics.
You could be able to build a spaceport and get an oplation of one kind of resource (food, minerals or energy) from the planet additional to the 6 research.
The drawback would be that they somtimes could discover that you are no gods an led to a disilution of the population (riots, upriseings, wars and just suicides). The remaining pops get a modifier for 100 years (disilution) where they just produce 25%of what they could, but without happiness influence or ethics.
Ehh.... I think we might be using opportunity cost differently. By having the smallest investment in resources and time, I'd say it has the smallest opportunity cost. But that's neither here nor there. I agree, it is weaker than the other two options and when xenophile had technological ascension opened it probably was for balance reasons. That's why I know the current game philosophy is for conquest to be fast, relatively easy, but have long lasting penalties on the population conquered or long lasting diplomatic repercussions, technological ascension is expensive, but provides the best long term return, and nonintervention is a hold over move that you use when it will be awhile before you can do one of the other two because your empire has other priorities.
So we're on the same page. If there are enough people who want this to be a viable third path, instead of a hold over until you follow one of the two paths the game currently intends, it only comes down to how much of a resource investment it should take, what interesting gameplay options this can open up, and whether we can make pursuing this path an interesting part of gameplay itself.
You've actually hit on an interesting different angle for this. Conquest and technological ascension are ultimately about expansion. Observation doesn't necessarily need to be the alternative for xenophiles, observation makes good sense as the alternative for tall play. Someone earlier joked about the empire with 20 worlds getting ran over by the empire with 25 worlds, after taking over 5 pre-warp aliens. If we change the calculation to 25 worlds versus 20 worlds with 5 empire wide bonuses, the math becomes more interesting.
there is a mod for it in workshop
yes. do you see something wrong with it? i don't.
when i were playing and there is Sol with humans in my game... they act so provocative, that the only option from my alien point of view is usually either conquest, or annihilation
Yes. I shall remember in future that you are incapable of empathythere is a mod for it in workshop
yes. do you see something wrong with it? i don't.
(N.B. Just because I see something wrong with it, doesn't mean I wouldn't do it in the game.)
I always leave it to the empire's personality. My Snails never intervene and just leave the primitives into a Reality Show status, and if a scientist interferes... Eh, that makes the storyline even more exciting! While others just invade to put them to work or wipe them out!
If the empire is pacifist and xenophile, though, I'd love to be able to intervene should things escalate towards Nuclear War. Either preventing the war or, if unlucky, the war begins anyways, and you have a timed project to rescue the few survivors as a Colony Ship of yours, saving their species.
If the empire is pacifist and xenophile, though, I'd love to be able to intervene should things escalate towards Nuclear War. Either preventing the war or, if unlucky, the war begins anyways, and you have a timed project to rescue the few survivors as a Colony Ship of yours, saving their species.
So, taking this in the context of this thread.
Right now making that choice is putting you at a disadvantage, potentially a very significant disadvantage. Would you be interested in the opportunity to invest in technologies, traditions, or some other system to get an increased happiness output from those reality shows that allows you to close that gap?
The problem is that there is really no logical way to reward you for NOT exploiting primitives.
We shy away from it because it is morally wrong from the perspective of many of our respective cultures, not because it wouldn't benefit us.
There is little we could gain by passively studying them that we could not also gain by actively studying them and none of that is as immediately beneficial as taking an entire planet and its resources would be. What are you losing out on, really? Some of their behaviour would change when they realise that they are under active scrutiny, and you'd probably lose some of the social context if you wipe them out and study what remains of their texts/dwellings/dead bodies.
They're primitive, so the only stuff you might conceivably find are either in their genetics (new gene for paralel processing found in the frontal lobe of the crab monsters from Tau Ceti, news on 11!) which you could find by dissecting the bodies after taking over or some creative use of their natural environment (ingesting a poison and turning it into a drug that prolongs their lifespan or improves their twitch reflexes).
I just can't think of anything a primitive species could have that wouldn't be found if you subjugate them - you'd need something that requires their active cooperation or some sort of secret that wouldn't be gained by tortur- questioning specimen in the laboratory.
But none of that stuff would really have an impact on your society anyways.
What we need is some stuff that you can find by passively studying races that would not be found from the ruins of their civilisation. Maybe something like unique technologies or permanent passive boni with a very tiny chance of discovery for 1 passive observation station, but with a rising chance for each additional primitive race you study. That, or make the social research an empire wide modifier as opposed to a flat one so that the 3 social research doesn't have to compete with 10 potential research labs on the planet instead.
We shy away from it because it is morally wrong from the perspective of many of our respective cultures, not because it wouldn't benefit us.
There is little we could gain by passively studying them that we could not also gain by actively studying them and none of that is as immediately beneficial as taking an entire planet and its resources would be. What are you losing out on, really? Some of their behaviour would change when they realise that they are under active scrutiny, and you'd probably lose some of the social context if you wipe them out and study what remains of their texts/dwellings/dead bodies.
They're primitive, so the only stuff you might conceivably find are either in their genetics (new gene for paralel processing found in the frontal lobe of the crab monsters from Tau Ceti, news on 11!) which you could find by dissecting the bodies after taking over or some creative use of their natural environment (ingesting a poison and turning it into a drug that prolongs their lifespan or improves their twitch reflexes).
I just can't think of anything a primitive species could have that wouldn't be found if you subjugate them - you'd need something that requires their active cooperation or some sort of secret that wouldn't be gained by tortur- questioning specimen in the laboratory.
But none of that stuff would really have an impact on your society anyways.
What we need is some stuff that you can find by passively studying races that would not be found from the ruins of their civilisation. Maybe something like unique technologies or permanent passive boni with a very tiny chance of discovery for 1 passive observation station, but with a rising chance for each additional primitive race you study. That, or make the social research an empire wide modifier as opposed to a flat one so that the 3 social research doesn't have to compete with 10 potential research labs on the planet instead.
Last edited:
This is where our views go into different directions. You see only material gains as a benefit.
But in holding ones own morals and traditions high does a culture not strenghen its unity? Or does a government by living up to its cultures standards not widen its influence over its citizens?
you're playing space fungus\space plants\space birnd...etc
why are you trying to fit HUMAN morale into that empire?
This. It would be perfectly appropriate for xenophile empires to gain a (small) happiness or influence bonus for every observation outpost.
Because you can choose the morality of that race on empire generation. If you want your alien mushrooms to value and respect the cultures of other aliens, you click 'xenophile' before starting the game.
Why do you think this kind of morale is unique to humans. Also how do you define "human" morales? Last time i checked, there was no consens. Some like to burn other humans, some like to stone them, while others like to help each other. What is a human morale then?
We are working with an ethic system made by humans and viewed by humans. There may be lifeforms out there that are totally different from us, while others might be not that much different.
If a being whatever species it might be has the ability to empathize with others then there have to be morales. My point of view is that these morales derive from natural laws. If a species evolved building a cummunal society like ours did, they have to have some kind of a moral code that leads their actions between each other and also towards others. Otherwise their community wouldn´t have formed in the first place.
Going down that road. If a civilisation is peaceful or xenophile you could pretty much assume this is the case. For space birds, plants and fungi as well in the way they are portrait by the game. Of course there might also be absolutely amoral beings unable to emphasize with others (or atleast with species other than their own). These would be your most beloved xenophobes
indeed. but it doesn't meant they'll value it the same way as humans.
i don't define it. i don't know what it is.
people in the Caribbean are eating marine mammals (dolphins for example) and others think they are almost sentient.
some eat dogs\cats...or enslave nations. and that's all happening on our planet.
so i hardly see why morality\empathy must be applied to some xenos...living on a planets that belong to you. and why you should treat them well
if i see a race of sentient cheeseburgers with sentient cola...i'd probably will not care what they think. they are just food.
i don't love xenophobes. i see a major flaw in their point of view: they hate ONLY xenos.These would be your most beloved xenophobes
right now collectivists fits my tastes the most: i just declare unhappiness in my empire illegal. and purge everyone below 50%. no matter what race he is or what job he do. (slaves ofc are excluded)
**there were a funny news few months ago that in the neighboring country there were a proposition of a law that "living after 70 years is illegal and people will need to pay fees for doing so"
too bad it was just a joke.
Last edited:
Not really, 3 out of 6 society isn't that crippling, the difference isn't going to get past 15 per month, and if it's past 15 it means we have 5+ primitive worlds, so we're probably doing pretty well for ourselves to already own so much space.
Also directly studying the locals too soon makes them resentful. One could argue that is not much of a big deal either too.
You see, you and me are only humans and yet totally different. If other species are as diverse as ours there will surely also be some whose people are more like me and some who are more like you, though if they were the way you are portraying yourself (which i can only understand as some kind of satire or sarcasm to be honest) they would blow themselves out of existence long before ever reaching for the stars
i value efficiency. above everything else...(maybe except friendship)
that's why inside the game if something is bad i see 2 choices - fix it (in case of some unhappy pops - enslave it and put it in the mine\farm) or destroy it. same with the broken things in real life. if someone work badly you usually either talk to him to five him a chance to improve or fire him. and it doesn't matter if it's a man, women, black or gay.
random thought: some options for xeno-phobia\philia may be good too. like "you like\hate only fungi...or in fanatic way: every life is sacred"
Last edited:
I remember posting once about how passively observing an early space age civ that transitions to an FTL empire should give you a diplo-bonus with them for not interfering with them, depending on their ethics/civics of course.
how will they know that you haven't interfered with them? i though the main point of "not interfering" is that you're not spotted