There should be real incentive to keep primitive worlds as they are. (Atleast for some playstyles)

[Brent15]

Because in this analogy it belongs to a naive child who can't stop you from pushing him over and stealing it. Doesn't make it the morally correct course of action, even if you really need the money.

Of course, different cultures and ethics may place different weights and values on that morality.

I understand why you might not want to do it, ethically. But without belief that there are repercussions for this transgression on a primitive race, there isn't another reason I see a race foregoing the opportunity to acquire these resources and the habitable space. Except that they may believe in a strong moral code or code of conduct.

This leads to my point that it should be a soft internal benefit - like unity, for keeping them around.

 

[Slynx]

I'm glad there is not more payoff for keeping primitives around as I don't see one realistically. Why wouldn't an advanced nation take over a habitable world?

they may life on a planet that your species wouldn't like. especially if they are non-adaptive. and your empire may not like slavery\purging
also (if you like doing diplomacy)...other empires may not like it.

morally correct

second time i see something about morality in this thread.
morality + xeno scum...creepy.

 

[The Founder]

I do feel additional benefits would be ok if they require unity investment, it would afterall take away unity from other traditions you could have taken instead.

Any thoughts or counter arguments?

There have been a few important changes, that now allow them to fully focus on developing this section (observation Events):
1. Stone age civilisations. They were actually a leftover from before Observation Posts were introduced. That explains how they were distinct. But in the end it caused to many issues. It is a pitty we lost the preserves but I could see some ways those could be re-introduced.

2. Inflitration will now provide a temporary happiness bonus and will also be avalible on mere "Active" Interference. https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/845220403605843969
And of course there is Indoctrination to do beforehand. So if anything the game is now moving away from passive Observation. That might allow them to buff the Observations more.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Because in this analogy it belongs to a naive child who can't stop you from pushing him over and stealing it. Doesn't make it the morally correct course of action, even if you really need the money.

Of course, different cultures and ethics may place different weights and values on that morality.

Yeah, nobody has a problem with the idea that a more morally advanced pacifistic or xenophillic civilization has moral qualms with violently conquering a planet. Nobody really has expressed any concerns that Xenophiles might have qualms with interfering in another race even for their betterment, though that sounds a lot like some Prime Directive BS to me.

What's being discussed is whether those high moral ideas should have an opportunity cost and to what extent that opportunity cost should be.

 

[Brent15]

they may life on a planet that your species wouldn't like. especially if they are non-adaptive. and your empire may not like slavery\purging
also (if you like doing diplomacy)...other empires may not like it.

To me those are factors already built into the game. I was talking about creating more incentive.

I do see those current mechanics as logical and good reasons to not take over primitives.

What's being discussed is whether those high moral ideas should have an opportunity cost and to what extent that opportunity cost should be.

Exactly my point. +1

 

[The Founder]

Different ideas for said bonus for having a passive study observation post AND the before mentioned tradition :
- getting a small influence bonus for each passive observation post
- getting a small unity bonus for each passive observation post

Any thoughts or counter arguments?

You may get something much more valuable:
Ethos Covergence on Xenophilia/Pacifism.

An active interference Policy will not make the Xenophile Faction happy. And what makes a Faction unhappy will most likely also affect atraction. So you get a less stable empire. And since you go the Pacifist/Xenophile route, you will not want unstable internal politics.
1.5 also helps a lot now with "going tall". While not fully competitive, it gives you a lot more to do (thanks to habitats and other megastrutures).

 

[Slynx]

I was talking about creating more incentive.

so you want a game to reward you because you have a flaw called morality? right?
it's like "hey! look! i'm self-restricting myself! reward me NOW!"

 

[Elimdur]

What's being discussed is whether those high moral ideas should have an opportunity cost and to what extent that opportunity cost should be.

Correct + that it should not come for free but in return for an investment beforehand.

so you want a game to reward you because you have a flaw called morality? right?
it's like "hey! look! i'm self-restricting myself! reward me NOW!"

Please note that it should not be a simple buff for anyone but for those who have invested in traditions.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Please note that it should not be a simple buff for anyone but for those who have invested in traditions.

Well, that creates an opportunity cost for these buffs. You either get them before Federation forming, after Federation forming but in place of something useful like empire wide prosperity, or instead of Federation forming. I'm on board. If enough people want it, take as many unity, influence, happiness, and xenophile attraction bonuses as you feel are fair when compared to other tradition trees or a slot on an existing tradition tree.

As a bonus this might actually give xenophile/pacifists who discover they are surrounded by militant xenophobes an alternate course to violently liberating allies.

What might be cool would be something like refugee archs. Basically an empty colony ship that lets you pluck a population of likeminded xenos right off the surface of the planet, presumably before they're slaughtered by some natural disaster or rival political faction. That might let you spend your traditions to get the advantage of technological enlightenment without the run up cost of enlightening, waiting on your immigration treaty to pay off, and then building those colony ships.

 

[Slynx]

What might be cool would be something like refugee archs

isn't there already something similar with the refugees? iirc they can flee from the planet to another empire who would welcome them...or to another planet.
also,,,you refugee ship will be useless cuz you can't land if the borders are closed

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

isn't there already something similar with the refugees? iirc they can flee from the planet to another empire who would welcome them...or to another planet.
also,,,you refugee ship will be useless cuz you can't land if the borders are closed

Well for one, this would be directed, not random. Thus why it would come with a mineral cost and allow you to pick the race and ethos of the population you're recruiting.

Two, this would be applied to pre-FTL planets as per the topic of the thread, and after spending unity on a tradition or tradition tree dedicated to rewarding nonintervention of pre-FTL civilizations, so they wouldn't have borders.

Three, this would lead to the creation of a colony ship with that population, not the recruitment of a population to an existing planet. The bonus here would be allowing faster exploitation of a colony world you couldn't colonize prior.

Four, but how cool would it be if they also gave them cloaking devices and let them pilfer populations from people who have borders and have closed them? Obviously you restrict it by ethos or limit it to populations that would be willing to migrate if migration was open so that happy empires become largely immune, but making it an active choice instead of a passive effect would add strategic depth and in game interaction.

Five, morality is rewarded in game already. I know I'm harping on an earlier mistake you made but I didn't get around to addressing it. Actually try playing a xenophillic or pacifistic empire sometime as a xenophile or pacifist, not only do pacifists get a huge early game bonus to sectors but diplomacy is so much easier when you play as one of the nice guys, you multiply your force without suffering researching penalties, and your people are happier overall which makes your empire more stable overall.

 

[Slynx]

Actually try playing a xenophillic or pacifistic empire sometime as a xenophile or pacifist, not only do pacifists get a huge early game bonus to sectors but diplomacy is so much easier when you play as one of the nice guys, you multiply your force without suffering researching penalties, and your people are happier overall which makes your empire more stable overall.

i've played f.pacifists\xenophiles with additional self restriction "no purges. no slavery. no kinds of war"
i've played with a friend and all (except maybe 1 or 2) empires randomed to be pacifistic too.
didn't like it much...but still proud that even a game of pacifists ended in a huge galactic war (everyone vs everyone).
and the main problem with pacifists - you see them. declare a war asap. and they can't do diplomacy.
\\as a militarist i have constant +25% happiness on non-slave planets. as a pacifist i had +35+% but only at peace. don't really think it's worth it.
\\also vassalization multiplies your force too.

this would be applied to pre-FTL planets

well. i though it'll be applied to every purged species. ok then.

 

[Hype Train]

Well you can get a society research boost if you just aggresively observe them, you can avoid angering your populace if you are pacifistic, xenophillic, or individualistic (or egalitarian in the coming patch), if you arent any of those, you could not do it to avoid angering a powerful empire with any of those ethics. There is plenty reason imo

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I can get way more society from even an 8-slot than I can a research station. And if you stop at 25 planets for neat borders and sector layouts, you're going to be crushed by the guy who annexes 5 primitives and eventually has 20% more economic capacity than you.

OP is right - there needs to be a very good reason to keep around observation posts. We're supposed to be able to competitively play principled Federation-like entities, so principled non-interference needs to provide some kind of buff to them that is comparable or near-comparable to the worth of an entire planet. 1 influence per planet, at least, probably a good bit of unity too.

 

[Fenrirwolf]

How about you get +1 food per pop with active study

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

I'm not sure comparing non-interference to open exploitation in a vacuum is particularly helpful either. There are in fact thee different ways to deal with per-FTL natives. Conquest, technological enlightenment, and non-interference.

Of those non-interference has the smallest investment and the smallest return. It's not intended to be a viable strategy by itself, but instead is a hold over until resources and time can be invested to one of the other two strategies or a completely different strategy. In the original posters idea, resources and investment can be spent via traditions to bring that move up to scale with the other two for people who want non-interference observation to be an important part of play.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Of those non-interference has the smallest investment and the smallest return. It's not intended to be a viable strategy by itself, but instead is a hold over until resources and time can be invested to one of the other two strategies or a completely different strategy. In the original posters idea, resources and investment can be spent via traditions to bring that move up to scale with the other two for people who want non-interference observation to be an important part of play.

But non-interference has the highest opportunity cost, and until very recently, it was the only option available to some ethos... the change of which we can assume is for balance purposes, not RP.

There is still the case where there are at least two ethos that would logically seem to prefer non-interference, but which are forced into interference for pragmatic reasons. It's alright for there to be some blatant disadvantages with each ethos, but clearly the devs agree that being permanently locked out of some of the limited number of habitable planets is too much.

Ideally getting bonuses from non-interference should require some investment and risk, same as conquering the planet. I wasn't implying that you should just get influence for free. But the bonuses should be quite large, enough to seriously make someone consider NOT uplifting even if possible. In fact, that kind of thing doesn't just need to be limited to space hippies - you could imagine situations such as turning a primitive world into a massive hunting preserve with televised chases (provides happiness for xenophobes and militarists), a massive bio-weapons/evil sociologist laboratory (far more extensive than probing anuses, and granting more society research than any normal planet of that size could), or an idyllic retreat from the hectic life of modern galactic civilization (pacifists and spiritualists).

 

[Foefaller]

Active currently beats Passive, hands down. Not just in the research per month, but in all the fun events and the bonuses that can come from it.

Passive, the "best" thing that can happen is you get the Rogue Scientist event that pushes the primitive civ up to Industrial age (minimum for Infiltration) with it possibly reach Machine age, and not only is it rare as hell (MTTH is over 400 years) there is a non-zero chance at the end of the event of the primitive regressing back to a pre-infiltration era or the Observation outpost being blown up. None of the other Passive-only events have any sort of even tangent bonus, and in fact most have bad outcomes (like the Observation outpost being destroyed, or the planet nuking itself.) You might also get smugglers, which is equally as rare, and at best earns you some minerals and energy credits.

Active, you could get the implants and abduction projects, which are a great (if early in the game, otherwise decent) society bonus, or if they are advanced enough, the chance for a free, 5 star, Spark of Genius Scientist of the primitive species. With both being much, much more common than the passive ones (MTTH for them is Six years for implants and scientist, 100 for abductions) Plus there is always the "X-COM event." Only downside is the likelyhood of pushing the primitives towards Xenophobe and/or Spiritualist, which might be something you hope to avoid depending on your own ethos and future enlightenment/infiltration/conquest plans. I guess XCOM succeeding and blowing up your Observation post would also be bad, but lets be honest, you're too busy giggling at the event to care, right?

 

[Foefaller]

They do provide a science bonus similar to a average science station when doing a passive observation or a higher one when doing abductions but aside from this small token bonus is there any real benefit in not taking them over asap in one or another way?
Even more so after making habitable planets more rare in the default settings, finding a primitive world is like a free planet full of future slaves.

With this change it has become more rare for me to keep such planets with their observation stations around. But this is a bit of a shame as there are really cool events that can happen, while having an observation station in place. So seeing any of them is kind of rare in the current state as described above.
What i would like to see is a tradition for peaceful or xenophile playstyles that like to play as protectors of the younger species. Very much like the Asgard did in Stargate.

Therefor maintaining observation posts should provide additional benefits when having said tradition/traditions. This way you would keep the primitives around while also having the possibility of experiencing observation post events without loosing too much for not having taken the planet.

I do feel additional benefits would be ok if they require unity investment, it would afterall take away unity from other traditions you could have taken instead.

Different ideas for said bonus for having a passive study observation post AND the before mentioned tradition :
- getting a small influence bonus for each passive observation post
- getting a small unity bonus for each passive observation post

Any thoughts or counter arguments?

Generally speaking, the more primitive the primitives are, the less worth your time it is to try to make them a part of your empire or galactic society at a whole.

For example, enlightenment of a Bronze age civ take 41 years, 8 months, 2500 EC, and depending on what observation mode you might have used instead, 4000 or 5,500 lost Society Research... and that's assuming you aren't hit with any events that alter that time any further (and with a MTTH of 60 years for any of them, chances are considerably greater than zero)

Conquest could work better... If you already have robots and/or pops that can inhabit that world, otherwise you're going to have a world that isn't going to be producing much of anything worthwhile for a very long time; culture shock for Bronze age comes with a -50% production to minerals and EC, the complete inability to produce science, and a duration of 100 years for the starting pops, 20 years for pops born after the invasion, taken from the time there were fully grown. In fact, any pops from a society not advanced enough to infiltrate will be unable to produce any science for at least a decade after fully grown, which can greatly hamper your ability to recoup the penalty from adding a new world to your empire.

Can't really argue against infiltrating if the option is there however, unless you're worried about expansion penalties, other than the chance at abduction mission for even more research and a rank 5 spark of genius scientist if you go with active study.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

There are a lot of reasons why not to take the planet:

- It is small. I rarely bother with planets with tiles less than 16 unless I am in absolute need of planets.
- It may be of wrong type. Since you can't terraform planets with primitives, colonizing it would just make your pops depressed, even if they can live there at all.
- Tech. Under 10 tile planets are not worth from research point of view.
- Those damn primitives. Xenophobes can purge them, but most of us can't. Other species are problem if your own species is tailored to be as good as possible for some particular playstyle. Also, those aliens are miserable, and you have to spend influence and stuff to manage factions and make them happy.
- Ethics. In many cases, your own population gets unhappy for unrestricted meddling with primitives. This is only factor for some empires, though.

Considering these points, usually there is no reason why not to take primitive planets with xenophobes, collectivists and militarists, but without those there are a bit of happiness problems and so on to make you reconsider whether you really want that planet or not.

Though if it is 20+ planet, yeah, colonize it.