There should be real incentive to keep primitive worlds as they are. (Atleast for some playstyles)

[Elimdur]

They do provide a science bonus similar to a average science station when doing a passive observation or a higher one when doing abductions but aside from this small token bonus is there any real benefit in not taking them over asap in one or another way?
Even more so after making habitable planets more rare in the default settings, finding a primitive world is like a free planet full of future slaves.

With this change it has become more rare for me to keep such planets with their observation stations around. But this is a bit of a shame as there are really cool events that can happen, while having an observation station in place. So seeing any of them is kind of rare in the current state as described above.
What i would like to see is a tradition for peaceful or xenophile playstyles that like to play as protectors of the younger species. Very much like the Asgard did in Stargate.

Therefor maintaining observation posts should provide additional benefits when having said tradition/traditions. This way you would keep the primitives around while also having the possibility of experiencing observation post events without loosing too much for not having taken the planet.

I do feel additional benefits would be ok if they require unity investment, it would afterall take away unity from other traditions you could have taken instead.

Different ideas for said bonus for having a passive study observation post AND the before mentioned tradition :
- getting a small influence bonus for each passive observation post
- getting a small unity bonus for each passive observation post

Any thoughts or counter arguments?

 

[The_Human_Oddity]

I would only take it over if it is a 25-tile planet.

 

[Slynx]

6 society research is a nice boost. also you need to deal with them only at the early space age(or atomic). or they'll steal your territory.

also...there are mods that expand this area of a game. but i doubt you'll use their features frequently...
for example - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=756110740
.

 

[scaper12123]

I feel like passive observation should give a lot of society research while active would give a modest amount of each kind of research, to encourage people to not mess with the population more.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Waiting to ascend a species into the space age maximizes the amount of time they spend as protectorates and thus the amount of influence you get from them in total. The longer you wait, the longer it takes them to get within 80% of your tech.

Maybe the Asgaard weren't protecting humanity, maybe they were just waiting until their late game expansion play and wanted humanity for a protectorate?

Or, if you need a nice guy justification. You can wait until the species you're observing enters the atomic age before stepping in to prevent them from destroying themselves.

 

[Elimdur]

6 society research is a nice boost. also you need to deal with them only at the early space age(or atomic). or they'll steal your territory.

also...there are mods that expand this area of a game. but i doubt you'll use their features frequently...
for example - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=756110740
.

It is 6 research for being a bad guy, yes. And still 6 research does not even come close to the benefits you have when owning the planet with its production capacity + fleetpoints gained from pops and spaceport. This is why in my view a takeover would be the better option most of the time at some point.

I would like to have an alternative for those that would choose to protect the primitives' lifestyle without intervening in their natural development. Giving a bonus to what is gained from the planet to make the difference between the small science bonus and the full capacitiy of the planet smaller for the cost of having to invest into a tradition.

Waiting to ascend a species into the space age maximizes the amount of time they spend as protectorates and thus the amount of influence you get from them in total. The longer you wait, the longer it takes them to get within 80% of your tech.

Maybe the Asgaard weren't protecting humanity, maybe they were just waiting until their late game expansion play and wanted humanity for a protectorate?

Nice one

And yes this is a small bonus having them as protectorates but it is still a bit underwhelming atleast in my eyes.

 

[Slynx]

It is 6 research for being a bad guy, yes.

nothing bad in harvesting primitives for experiments. it's like lab rats.
also for me primitives are either would-be-slaves or someone to-be-purged.
but sometimes i'm too busy to establish a new planet. (it cost hundreds or even thousands of minerals before it could be added to a sector)

 

[forfor]

There is the fact that if you choose to turn a primitive into a protectorate they tend to block off a system or 2 from construction despite any shared borders, or build random outposts for themselves, and that can cost you some resources. Meanwhile conquering them can be a minor drain on influence due to suppression costs. Probably not an issue for a collectivist, but a non-collectivist can screw themselves over on influence by taking too many too quickly. Honestly once I have a species for each planet type I call it good on conquering natives unless they're in a tactical location, like to take a resource rich area without outpost costs, or push back enemy borders.

 

[Elimdur]

nothing bad in harvesting primitives for experiments. it's like lab rats.
also for me primitives are either would-be-slaves or someone to-be-purged.
but sometimes i'm too busy to establish a new planet. (it cost hundreds or even thousands of minerals before it could be added to a sector)

You see, it is nothing bad about using lab rats until someone uses you as one. This is why I see this as morally questionable and definitely not something the good guys would or should do.

There is the fact that if you choose to turn a primitive into a protectorate they tend to block off a system or 2 from construction despite any shared borders, or build random outposts for themselves, and that can cost you some resources. Meanwhile conquering them can be a minor drain on influence due to suppression costs. Probably not an issue for a collectivist, but a non-collectivist can screw themselves over on influence by taking too many too quickly. Honestly once I have a species for each planet type I call it good on conquering natives unless they're in a tactical location, like to take a resource rich area without outpost costs, or push back enemy borders.

At the moment this is true, but as brainwashing (indoctrination) becomes a thing it will be much easier to incorporate primitives in your empire without causing big trouble afterwards.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Nice one

And yes this is a small bonus having them as protectorates but it is still a bit underwhelming atleast in my eyes.

Sure, in the early game absolutely.

Consider late game, on a large galaxy. You have 25 systems already, a flat influence growth of 4, and a bunch of whiny factions who occasionally need some love and attention. What helps you out more at that stage, 1 more star system, possibly full of xenophobic starfish who hate being part of your grand collective, or the +1 influence you get from having a protectorate of xenophobic starfish?

 

[Elimdur]

Sure, in the early game absolutely.

Consider late game, on a large galaxy. You have 25 systems already, a flat influence growth of 4, and a bunch of whiny factions who occasionally need some love and attention. What helps you out more at that stage, 1 more star system, possibly full of xenophobic starfish who hate being part of your grand collective, or the +1 influence you get from having a protectorate of xenophobic starfish?

At the late game true. The protectorate if you need the influence. The planet with indoctrinated starfish otherwise. Still there is the time until a planet becomes a protectorate. This is where i would like to see a bigger bonus.

 

[Slynx]

Sure, in the early game absolutely.

Consider late game, on a large galaxy. You have 25 systems already, a flat influence growth of 4, and a bunch of whiny factions who occasionally need some love and attention. What helps you out more at that stage, 1 more star system, possibly full of xenophobic starfish who hate being part of your grand collective, or the +1 influence you get from having a protectorate of xenophobic starfish?

it's a trade between more fleet power and capacity. and more influence gain.
pretty much depends on a situation

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

At the late game true. The protectorate if you need the influence. The planet with indoctrinated starfish otherwise. Still there is the time until a planet becomes a protectorate. This is where i would like to see a bigger bonus.

Yeah, I can see that. But the more effective you make non-interference forms of exploitation, the more you shift the ethos balance from xenophobe to xenophile. Right now xenophobe leads in exploitation of conquered civilizations, but suffers in federation building and diplomacy. In Utopia I expect xenophobe to get a nice buff from the versatility of new slave types, but in the future I expect a revamp and deepening of Federation mechanics will buff xenophiles.

Ultimately though, if it comes down to an issue of game balance, I don't want them diluting their Federation revamp for the sake of non-interference exploitation, and I won't know if that's the case until I start seeing what's in the pipe for that expansion of Federation mechanics.

 

[General Retreat]

Maybe passive could provide a small influence bump for xenophiles, as a reduced equivalent of Protectorates? 0.5 instead of 1?

 

[Brent15]

I'm glad there is not more payoff for keeping primitives around as I don't see one realistically. Why wouldn't an advanced nation take over a habitable world?

If it's for their own ethical and philosophical reasons maybe it could provide unity, or some other internal soft bonus. But it should be a sacrifice to leave the rare habitable worlds to primitives.

As a player, I would like the ability to guarantee the independence and protection of a primitive world though - even without securing the territory.

 

[The_Human_Oddity]

I'm glad there is not more payoff for keeping primitives around as I don't see one realistically. Why wouldn't an advanced nation take over a habitable world?

Because there are other planets you can colonize.

 

[Brent15]

Because there are other planets you can colonize.

So why pick up an extra $20 lying on the ground when you already have $100?

Even if there are ants on it, you can wipe them off.

 

[The_Human_Oddity]

So why pick up an extra $20 lying on the ground when you already have $100?

Because you could only carry 5 dollar bills, you already have 4 $25, you should instead pick up the $25.

 

[Brent15]

I could just put those in another wallet (sector).

Seriously, I don't see advanced species thinking that way.

 

[General Retreat]

So why pick up an extra $20 lying on the ground when you already have $100?

Even if there are ants on it, you can wipe them off.

Because in this analogy it belongs to a naive child who can't stop you from pushing him over and stealing it. Doesn't make it the morally correct course of action, even if you really need the money.

Of course, different cultures and ethics may place different weights and values on that morality.