There should be a way to lose the “Drunkard” trait

[Liggi]

Two main reasons for this:

- Characters look like a bit of a state when they have it. I hate taking over as a 18 year old Drunkard and having to look at his flushed, squinting face for the next however long.

- People can recover from alcoholism. It's difficult, but it can be done. Why do our characters in Crusader Kings not have the opportunity to try? The likelihood of success should be modified by Stress, personality, etc. and there should be a limit to how often you can attempt it. But there should be a way to at least try.

There are of course things that should make this more difficult, such as:

- Having a friend or friends that are also Drunkards
- Being a Reveller of any kind
- Attending or hosting a feast while trying to quit

On a side note: it'd also be nice to be able to "intervene" with another character to try to help them lose the Trait. Again, I would put the likelihood of success here even lower than them trying themselves, but depending on your relationship, your opinion of them, their character traits, your character traits etc.

 

[Flockingbird]

Quoting myself from the thread in the other subforum,

Could even have late childhood/tutor events where the tutor finds the adolescent drunk at the inn, and can choose between various options to teach the child sobriety—or not.

There were other suggestions there for events.

 

[AlipheeseXV]

I really wonder why drunkard has no "countermeasures"?
I mean, there are other traits which you can actively or with help counter:
- Obese: In decision tab you wil lfind "Try to loose weight"
- Melancholic: Depending on you court physician (It not always triggers, so don't ask me for specifications on the physician), you can go through several meetings and after the last, you see the bright future and loose the trait

pdox should really give to all traits countermeasures, which may occur other penalties, but give the player a goal they can work towards.

 

[Ostermex]

The tricky part here is that this is a slippery slope.
While you are talking about the Drunkard trait specifically, you are indirectly talking about ALL the 'Coping Mechanism' traits.

I mean, why should we be able to get rid of Drunkard, and not, let's say Flagellant, Reclusive or Improvident?

Do not get me wrong, I like the idea you're going for, and I think it has potential, I'm just saying that you can't do it for one specific trait.

 

[Koyraboro]

I really wonder why drunkard has no "countermeasures"?
I mean, there are other traits which you can actively or with help counter:
- Obese: In decision tab you wil lfind "Try to loose weight"
- Melancholic: Depending on you court physician (It not always triggers, so don't ask me for specifications on the physician), you can go through several meetings and after the last, you see the bright future and loose the trait

pdox should really give to all traits countermeasures, which may occur other penalties, but give the player a goal they can work towards.

You guys get over Melancholic?

 

[AlipheeseXV]

You guys get over Melancholic?

It's rare and it seem to directly interfere with your court physician - though I don't know WHAT specifications my court physician has to have.
But what I so far encountered a few times: If my char is melancholic, my court physician may propose a way to counter it. The "way" is to do some councelling with the physician, get stress and become weak over just a few weeks, but at the last session, my char always "sees the bright future and the light" or so and looses the trait melancholic.

 

[Liggi]

I'm very open to being able to have similar mechanics for other "negative" traits, or coping traits.

The key is that once a trait is established, it should be difficult and stressful for a character to remove it, but they should at least be able to try. I definitely don't think it should be easy to lose these traits. But it'd be nice to be able to play out stories where your character develops a drinking problem during a very stressful time, but once things have calmed down, they have the space and the stress level to try to overcome that issue.

It also means that there's a degree of realism there, whereby if you are trying to stop your problematic drinking and you end up in a very stressful situation again (ie. a civil war, death in the family), it'll become more difficult for you to succeed and you'll likely fall back on that coping mechanism.

 

[Rod Alexander]

I mean, why should we be able to get rid of Drunkard, and not, let's say Flagellant, Reclusive or Improvident?

Do not get me wrong, I like the idea you're going for, and I think it has potential, I'm just saying that you can't do it for one specific trait.

I'd say the reason Drunkard may have some precedence over other traits is because it's not a trait gained necessarily through stressful situations. It can be gained through regular events like Feasts and friendly encounters. The opposing traits you mentioned like "Flagellant", "Reclusive", and "Improvident", and even others like "Spendthrift" are all exclusively stress-coping traits that only trigger if going through a mental break. They also happen to be traits that, like in real life, once you get them, you can't really ever truly go back. Those are late-gained (albeit negative) personality traits.

"Drunkard", on the other hand, is an addiction, not a personality trait, which is why it makes sense to include it among other negatives that offer coping mechanisms, like what was already mentioned with "Melancholic" (another term for "I'm clinically depressed") and "Obese" (literally just a person who needs to diet).

 

[Ostermex]

I'd say the reason Drunkard may have some precedence over other traits is because it's not a trait gained necessarily through stressful situations. It can be gained through regular events like Feasts and friendly encounters. The opposing traits you mentioned like "Flagellant", "Reclusive", and "Improvident", and even others like "Spendthrift" are all exclusively stress-coping traits that only trigger if going through a mental break. They also happen to be traits that, like in real life, once you get them, you can't really ever truly go back. Those are late-gained (albeit negative) personality traits.

"Drunkard", on the other hand, is an addiction, not a personality trait, which is why it makes sense to include it among other negatives that offer coping mechanisms, like what was already mentioned with "Melancholic" (another term for "I'm clinically depressed") and "Obese" (literally just a person who needs to diet).

First off, you get "Drunkard" from Mental Breaks in the vast majority of cases.
Second, "Obese" isn't a trait at all.

And your whole "it's an addiction" thing doesn't work, as soon as you look at other Coping Mechanisms:
1. You would apply the same system to "Hashishiyah" then. That's literally addiction.
2. "Comfort Eater" too probably, since it could be sorted into "addictions". Using a substance, food in this case, to make one feel better.
3. "Rakish" is described as literally "This character spends so much time in the brothel". Definitely an addiction.
4. "Profligate" is "Compulsive spending causes this character to frequently waste money". Addicted to spending? Why not?

And don't even get me started on "like in real life, once you get them, you can't really ever truly go back".
Are you saying that my 25 year old Ruler, who got, let's say one of "Athletic"/"Reclusive"/"Irritable", should go his whole life with having those traits? People don't change in real life over decades?

This is what my original point was.
Do not get me wrong.
I am very much in favor of being able to lose these traits.
But I am definitely against picking only certain ones, while ignoring others that definitely meet the criteria of "being able to be lost over time, with help of friends, blah blah blah"

 

[Deshiba]

3. "Rakish" is described as literally "This character spends so much time in the brothel". Definitely an addiction.

If one were to take the "Embrace Celibacy" decision, one should get events to loose the Rakish trait.

I like being able too loose all negative traits that you can get trough stress. But just like obese you should actively take a decision to do so, with negative events attatched to those decisions.

 

[Ostermex]

If one were to take the "Embrace Celibacy" decision, one should get events to loose the Rakish trait.

I like being able too loose all negative traits that you can get trough stress. But just like obese you should actively take a decision to do so, with negative events attatched to those decisions.

No...?

Instead, just like if you have any of the "Reveler" traits, or the "Seducer" Trait, Rakish should disable the decision to become Celibate?
That makes more sense, at least to me

And if not, "Become Celibate" should impose a lot of stress for Rakish characters (and make them lose the trait, immediately, or eventually), as you would be literally fighting your addiction with a "cold-turkey" approach. Just like you get stress if you are Lustful and do "Become Celibate"

 

[Deshiba]

Instead, just like if you have any of the "Reveler" traits, or the "Seducer" Trait, Rakish should disable the decision to become Celibate?
That makes more sense, at least to me

Reveler and Seducer are direct results of your lifestyle, while Rakish is just a way to deal with stress. To me, this feels like it is not on the same level.

And if not, "Become Celibate" should impose a lot of stress for Rakish characters (and make them lose the trait, immediately, or eventually), as you would be literally fighting your addiction with a "cold-turkey" approach. Just like you get stress if you are Lustful and do "Become Celibate"

That's the idea, yes. Becoming celibate while being Rakish should give you negative events. Getting stress out of it is one of the many options that make sense.

 

[Ostermex]

Reveler and Seducer are direct results of your lifestyle, while Rakish is just a way to deal with stress. To me, this feels like it is not on the same level.

Yes, you are correct. Reveler and Seducer, you acquire through the ways you act, and they reaffirm your already existing lifestyle.
But Rakish (and other Coping Mechanisms), you acquire through accumulating Stress and needing release, thus finding a (possibly) new lifestyle.

To me, they are both, for a lack of a better term, 'lifestyle' traits.
What separates them is how you acquire them, and the (frustrating) fact that the Mental Break trait options are seemingly random.

Ideally, I'd like the Coping Mechanisms to be a pre-determined set, so they feel like genuine personal responses for Stress
For example, a Gregarious character should never be offered the "Reclusive" Coping Mechanism, as it would not make sense.

That's the idea, yes. Becoming celibate while being Rakish should give you negative events. Getting stress out of it is one of the many options that make sense.

And this is exactly what I was talking about when I said:

The tricky part here is that this is a slippery slope.
While you are talking about the Drunkard trait specifically, you are indirectly talking about ALL the 'Coping Mechanism' traits.

I mean, why should we be able to get rid of Drunkard, and not, let's say Flagellant, Reclusive or Improvident?

Do not get me wrong, I like the idea you're going for, and I think it has potential, I'm just saying that you can't do it for one specific trait.

Why stop at "Drunkard" and "Rakish"?
There should be a system in place that would allow you to get rid of all of the Coping Mechanism traits then, no?

 

[Rod Alexander]

- Melancholic: Depending on you court physician (It not always triggers, so don't ask me for specifications on the physician), you can go through several meetings and after the last, you see the bright future and loose the trait

You know I just noticed something today. There are two versions of "Melancholic" in the game: congenital and non-congenital. I suppose this accounts for those who have clinical depression that's purely mental-based (can be treated with therapy, or having a good friend)-- the non-congenital kind. The congenital, I suppose, would be that which is physically affecting, where certain parts of the brain aren't working properly or producing as much dopamine-- something that can be inherited.

 

[Rod Alexander]

First off, you get "Drunkard" from Mental Breaks in the vast majority of cases.
Second, "Obese" isn't a trait at all.

And your whole "it's an addiction" thing doesn't work, as soon as you look at other Coping Mechanisms:
1. You would apply the same system to "Hashishiyah" then. That's literally addiction.
2. "Comfort Eater" too probably, since it could be sorted into "addictions". Using a substance, food in this case, to make one feel better.
3. "Rakish" is described as literally "This character spends so much time in the brothel". Definitely an addiction.
4. "Profligate" is "Compulsive spending causes this character to frequently waste money". Addicted to spending? Why not?

And don't even get me started on "like in real life, once you get them, you can't really ever truly go back".
Are you saying that my 25 year old Ruler, who got, let's say one of "Athletic"/"Reclusive"/"Irritable", should go his whole life with having those traits? People don't change in real life over decades?

This is what my original point was.
Do not get me wrong.
I am very much in favor of being able to lose these traits.
But I am definitely against picking only certain ones, while ignoring others that definitely meet the criteria of "being able to be lost over time, with help of friends, blah blah blah"

After reading, you know, what you say does make sense. I stand corrected.

 

[AlipheeseXV]

You know I just noticed something today. There are two versions of "Melancholic" in the game: congenital and non-congenital. I suppose this accounts for those who have clinical depression that's purely mental-based (can be treated with therapy, or having a good friend)-- the non-congenital kind. The congenital, I suppose, would be that which is physically affecting, where certain parts of the brain aren't working properly or producing as much dopamine-- something that can be inherited.

Really?
I'm curious about this statement, because for example in ruler designer I only see one kind of melancholic I can give a custom char. Though it would explain why "counterin via physicist" triggers rarely.

 

[Deshiba]

Yes, you are correct. Reveler and Seducer, you acquire through the ways you act, and they reaffirm your already existing lifestyle.
But Rakish (and other Coping Mechanisms), you acquire through accumulating Stress and needing release, thus finding a (possibly) new lifestyle.

To me, they are both, for a lack of a better term, 'lifestyle' traits.
What separates them is how you acquire them, and the (frustrating) fact that the Mental Break trait options are seemingly random.

Ideally, I'd like the Coping Mechanisms to be a pre-determined set, so they feel like genuine personal responses for Stress
For example, a Gregarious character should never be offered the "Reclusive" Coping Mechanism, as it would not make sense.

Since the stress traits are random in the game right now, they aren't an active choice or result of your choices and/or character traits. I agree with your ideal, It makes no sense for a chaste character to get Rackish.

Why stop at "Drunkard" and "Rakish"?
There should be a system in place that would allow you to get rid of all of the Coping Mechanism traits then, no?

I completely agree, that's why my origional comment included:

I like being able too loose |all negative trait| that you can get trough stress. But just like obese you should actively take a decision to do so, with negative events attatched to those decisions.

Hightlighted for your convenience

 

[Rod Alexander]

Really?
I'm curious about this statement, because for example in ruler designer I only see one kind of melancholic I can give a custom char. Though it would explain why "counterin via physicist" triggers rarely.

Yeah, you can see both if you look up the term in the character-finder. One version has a blue highlight around it and the other doesn't. I forget which is which. The only difference between 'em is underneath one it says "Can be inherited."

 

[AlipheeseXV]

Yeah, you can see both if you look up the term in the character-finder. One version has a blue highlight around it and the other doesn't. I forget which is which. The only difference between 'em is underneath one it says "Can be inherited."

Found it:

So the blue highlighted is the congenital trait.
Interesting, if I have a char with melancholic trait and the opportunity to loose it via physician, I try to remember to look up if the physician counters the congenital or the other trait.

 

[Mcgan]

When you want to find out about things like that, the most reliable way is to look at the game files.
And apparently, it works for both traits, with one difference:

The "normal" trait is completely removed, while the congenital one is only disabled.
Seems like if the character goes trough events that would make them melancholic again, it will reactivate the congenital trait.