There should be a way to lose the “Drunkard” trait

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Liggi

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Two main reasons for this:

- Characters look like a bit of a state when they have it. I hate taking over as a 18 year old Drunkard and having to look at his flushed, squinting face for the next however long.

- People can recover from alcoholism. It's difficult, but it can be done. Why do our characters in Crusader Kings not have the opportunity to try? The likelihood of success should be modified by Stress, personality, etc. and there should be a limit to how often you can attempt it. But there should be a way to at least try.

There are of course things that should make this more difficult, such as:

- Having a friend or friends that are also Drunkards
- Being a Reveller of any kind
- Attending or hosting a feast while trying to quit

On a side note: it'd also be nice to be able to "intervene" with another character to try to help them lose the Trait. Again, I would put the likelihood of success here even lower than them trying themselves, but depending on your relationship, your opinion of them, their character traits, your character traits etc.
 
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Flockingbird

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Quoting myself from the thread in the other subforum,
Could even have late childhood/tutor events where the tutor finds the adolescent drunk at the inn, and can choose between various options to teach the child sobriety—or not.
There were other suggestions there for events. :)
 
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AlipheeseXV

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I really wonder why drunkard has no "countermeasures"?
I mean, there are other traits which you can actively or with help counter:
- Obese: In decision tab you wil lfind "Try to loose weight"
- Melancholic: Depending on you court physician (It not always triggers, so don't ask me for specifications on the physician), you can go through several meetings and after the last, you see the bright future and loose the trait

pdox should really give to all traits countermeasures, which may occur other penalties, but give the player a goal they can work towards.
 
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Ostermex

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The tricky part here is that this is a slippery slope.
While you are talking about the Drunkard trait specifically, you are indirectly talking about ALL the 'Coping Mechanism' traits.

I mean, why should we be able to get rid of Drunkard, and not, let's say Flagellant, Reclusive or Improvident?

Do not get me wrong, I like the idea you're going for, and I think it has potential, I'm just saying that you can't do it for one specific trait.
 

Koyraboro

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I really wonder why drunkard has no "countermeasures"?
I mean, there are other traits which you can actively or with help counter:
- Obese: In decision tab you wil lfind "Try to loose weight"
- Melancholic: Depending on you court physician (It not always triggers, so don't ask me for specifications on the physician), you can go through several meetings and after the last, you see the bright future and loose the trait

pdox should really give to all traits countermeasures, which may occur other penalties, but give the player a goal they can work towards.
You guys get over Melancholic?
 

AlipheeseXV

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You guys get over Melancholic?

It's rare and it seem to directly interfere with your court physician - though I don't know WHAT specifications my court physician has to have.
But what I so far encountered a few times: If my char is melancholic, my court physician may propose a way to counter it. The "way" is to do some councelling with the physician, get stress and become weak over just a few weeks, but at the last session, my char always "sees the bright future and the light" or so and looses the trait melancholic.
 

Liggi

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I'm very open to being able to have similar mechanics for other "negative" traits, or coping traits.

The key is that once a trait is established, it should be difficult and stressful for a character to remove it, but they should at least be able to try. I definitely don't think it should be easy to lose these traits. But it'd be nice to be able to play out stories where your character develops a drinking problem during a very stressful time, but once things have calmed down, they have the space and the stress level to try to overcome that issue.

It also means that there's a degree of realism there, whereby if you are trying to stop your problematic drinking and you end up in a very stressful situation again (ie. a civil war, death in the family), it'll become more difficult for you to succeed and you'll likely fall back on that coping mechanism.
 
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Rod Alexander

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I mean, why should we be able to get rid of Drunkard, and not, let's say Flagellant, Reclusive or Improvident?

Do not get me wrong, I like the idea you're going for, and I think it has potential, I'm just saying that you can't do it for one specific trait.
I'd say the reason Drunkard may have some precedence over other traits is because it's not a trait gained necessarily through stressful situations. It can be gained through regular events like Feasts and friendly encounters. The opposing traits you mentioned like "Flagellant", "Reclusive", and "Improvident", and even others like "Spendthrift" are all exclusively stress-coping traits that only trigger if going through a mental break. They also happen to be traits that, like in real life, once you get them, you can't really ever truly go back. Those are late-gained (albeit negative) personality traits.

"Drunkard", on the other hand, is an addiction, not a personality trait, which is why it makes sense to include it among other negatives that offer coping mechanisms, like what was already mentioned with "Melancholic" (another term for "I'm clinically depressed") and "Obese" (literally just a person who needs to diet).
 

Ostermex

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I'd say the reason Drunkard may have some precedence over other traits is because it's not a trait gained necessarily through stressful situations. It can be gained through regular events like Feasts and friendly encounters. The opposing traits you mentioned like "Flagellant", "Reclusive", and "Improvident", and even others like "Spendthrift" are all exclusively stress-coping traits that only trigger if going through a mental break. They also happen to be traits that, like in real life, once you get them, you can't really ever truly go back. Those are late-gained (albeit negative) personality traits.

"Drunkard", on the other hand, is an addiction, not a personality trait, which is why it makes sense to include it among other negatives that offer coping mechanisms, like what was already mentioned with "Melancholic" (another term for "I'm clinically depressed") and "Obese" (literally just a person who needs to diet).
First off, you get "Drunkard" from Mental Breaks in the vast majority of cases.
Second, "Obese" isn't a trait at all.

And your whole "it's an addiction" thing doesn't work, as soon as you look at other Coping Mechanisms:
1. You would apply the same system to "Hashishiyah" then. That's literally addiction.
2. "Comfort Eater" too probably, since it could be sorted into "addictions". Using a substance, food in this case, to make one feel better.
3. "Rakish" is described as literally "This character spends so much time in the brothel". Definitely an addiction.
4. "Profligate" is "Compulsive spending causes this character to frequently waste money". Addicted to spending? Why not?

And don't even get me started on "like in real life, once you get them, you can't really ever truly go back".
Are you saying that my 25 year old Ruler, who got, let's say one of "Athletic"/"Reclusive"/"Irritable", should go his whole life with having those traits? People don't change in real life over decades?

This is what my original point was.
Do not get me wrong.
I am very much in favor of being able to lose these traits.
But I am definitely against picking only certain ones, while ignoring others that definitely meet the criteria of "being able to be lost over time, with help of friends, blah blah blah"
 
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