There should be a sticky thread on acceptable features of CK3 mods

[Xenrek]

Huh? Wasn't that referring to a white supremacy thing from 2016? What does that have to do with a mod that makes Rurik straight?



It's also irrelevant to talk about the legality of removing mods from the Steam Workshop when the discussion is about whether or not it's right to remove a mod because it makes Rurik straight or homosexuality less common. I don't see anyone claiming that Paradox can't do it, but rather questioning if they should have.

to a degree, It can be seen as say, replacing all the african characters with europeans

it can be seen as anti-whatever it is thats being censored, and when those groups have historically been marginalized/victimized/abused, it can come off wrong.

*Will* people be mad if paradox lets someone upload it to a curated and publicly advertised Mod Forum? Who knows, likely the only people who would find it are those who are already looking for that content anyways.

But if people do get mad? will it be more or less than how many could be mad if they just remove the mod?

because at the end of the day theyre a game company, that means in large part, *their* reputation hinges on the reputation they allow to be promoted by their audience, and that can have serious effects when it comes to investors, censorship and equality laws, public opinion, etc. So its better to remove something potentially controversial, and not deal with it, than it is to let players "go wild" with paradox's reputation.

Again, as stated many times in this thread, paradox isnt hunting down this mod on every site and demanding it be deleted under threat of legal action, they removed it specifically from curated collections of mods under their control. If you want to make/download a mod like this, thats fine, there are places to get it, but there is zero grounds to demand Paradox give you *their* or their partner's paltforms to distribute it, and therefore implicitly give it paradox's support.

 

[LSF]

Considering how vague OP chose to be about the mod, I'm guessing the context was similarly offensive.

I didnt see the mod. Just saw the thtead adking how to mod probabiliyies since the mod was put down. Then I saw the thread being deleted after a short time.

The thread wasnt offensive at all. There were only 3 lines, asking how to mod and telling a mod was removed.

There were just 2 answers, one asking why PDX would remove such a mod and other asking why OP (from that thread, not me) wanted a lower probability for homossexuality since the chance is already low.

 

[LSF]

to a degree, It can be seen as say, replacing all the african characters with europeans

it can be seen as anti-whatever it is thats being censored, and when those groups have historically been marginalized/victimized/abused, it can come off wrong.

*Will* people be mad if paradox lets someone upload it to a curated and publicly advertised Mod Forum? Who knows, likely the only people who would find it are those who are already looking for that content anyways.

But if people do get mad? will it be more or less than how many could be mad if they just remove the mod?

because at the end of the day theyre a game company, that means in large part, *their* reputation hinges on the reputation they allow to be promoted by their audience, and that can have serious effects when it comes to investors, censorship and equality laws, public opinion, etc. So its better to remove something potentially controversial, and not deal with it, than it is to let players "go wild" with paradox's reputation.

Again, as stated many times in this thread, paradox isnt hunting down this mod on every site and demanding it be deleted under threat of legal action, they removed it specifically from curated collections of mods under their control. If you want to make/download a mod like this, thats fine, there are places to get it, but there is zero grounds to demand Paradox give you *their* or their partner's paltforms to distribute it, and therefore implicitly give it paradox's support.

I agree with some aspects of your reasoning.

But what I really think woul help is PDX being clear about some guidelines.

There is no line on this on the fora here.

It is much easier to write some rules of conduct for mod's content than simply searching and deleting.

Some people will make mods against the rules and upload them on Steam no matter what, but many others may refrain of doing that if they know it is not acceptable by PDX.

There are 2 different issues.

1. If PDX should make it clear what they accept or not, what they take as offensive or not.

2. If changing some characters features should be taken as offensive.

 

[Karlington]

double standard how? these companies have one 'terms of service.' something is either within that standard or outside of it.

It's often not clear cut whether something falls within it or not, and even when it is that's no guarantee that the standards will be applied fairly and equally.

Where there's room for discretion there's potential for discrimination and abuse. Please note that I am not saying that this has been the case in any of the examples brought up in this thread, I'm just saying that it's a possibility at any time human beings have to make decisions.

As a law student I can tell you that these issues are well known, debated, and researched in the legal academic community.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

It's often not clear cut whether something falls within it or not, and even when it is that's no guarantee that the standards will be applied fairly and equally.

Where there's room for discretion there's potential for discrimination and abuse. Please note that I am not saying that this has been the case in any of the examples brought up in this thread, I'm just saying that it's a possibility at any time human beings have to make decisions.

As a law student I can tell you that these issues are well known, debated, and researched in the legal academic community.

abuse? seriously, i'm surprised that you say this.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

There are 2 different issues.

1. If PDX should make it clear what they accept or not, what they take as offensive or not.

2. If changing some characters features should be taken as offensive.

1. their forum rules make it clear as to what's offensive
2. it depends on what characters, what features, and why?

if you seriously don't know what's offensive and what isn't, then i'm not sure how i can make it clearer.

i'm not going to cite examples publicly as that could easily derail the thread.

a general rule of thumb in life is, if you're not sure whether something's offensive, don't (do/say/post etc.) it.

 

[Karlington]

abuse? seriously, i'm surprised that you say this.

You are surprised that I say that when decision makers are able to exercise discretion there is potential for abuse? Maybe we aren't understanding each other then, because this seems like a fairly non-controversial statement to me.

I'm also curious about why you said you as if it's so surprising that it was me in particular who said it?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

You are surprised that I say that when decision makers are able to exercise discretion there is potential for abuse? Maybe we aren't understanding each other then, because this seems like a fairly non-controversial statement to me.

I'm also curious about why you said you as if it's so surprising that it was me in particular who said it?

because you generally seem like a sensible, smart person.

people are forgetting that we're talking about published mods and the thought of valve and/or PDX abusing people is a bit of a stretch.

..and having worked in government for 16 years there's a quite a bit of difference between 'discretion' and 'i can do what i want.' we're not all orange presidents, you know

 

[LSF]

1. their forum rules make it clear as to what's offensive
2. it depends on what characters, what features, and why?

if you seriously don't know what's offensive and what isn't, then i'm not sure how i can make it clearer.

i'm not going to cite examples publicly as that could easily derail the thread.

a general rule of thumb in life is, if you're not sure whether something's offensive, don't (do/say/post etc.) it.

1. Please show me the rules saying modders are not allowed to upload mods changing the probabilities of specific features. All I read here was not clear about that. If you found something so clear please share it.

2. Of course depends on many things. But is simply chaging probabilities of features one of them? The debate going on in this thread shows the answer is not so straightforward.

I understand people can get offended diffenrently. And more importantly I understand PDX as a private company has the right to allow or disallow whatever they want on its products.

What I cant understand is how they delete a thread without any kind of offensive statements and that dindnt break their forum's rules (yes I read them).

Just make things clear! It is much better than creating rules and leve them hidden from the public.

For the sake of clarity I am not interested in such a mod. But I am interested in understanding PDX reasoning.

For example I think muslims in EU4 are too strong religions and budhists are too weak ones. If I create a mod weakening muslims and enhancing budhists, will it be acceptable to upload on Steam?

Another example, I think very weird European powers colonizing the interior of Africa in EU4 time frame. If I create a mod giving maluses for all non-black-African cultures holding provinces in the interior of subsaharan Africa, will it be considered accaptable?

A third example, If I create a mod in EU4 (taking EU4 as example because I play it much more than CK series) with slave trade events that decrease African provinces DEV while increasing American provinces DEV, is it acceptable?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

1. Please show me the rules saying modders are not allowed to upload mods changing the probabilities of specific features. All I read here was not clear about that. If you found something so clear please share it.

2. Of course depends on many things. But is simply chaging probabilities of features one of them? The debate going on in this thread shows the answer is not so straightforward.

I understand people can get offended diffenrently. And more importantly I understand PDX as a private company has the right to allow or disallow whatever they want on its products.

What I cant understand is how they delete a thread without any kind of offensive statements and that dindnt break their forum's rules (yes I read them).

Just make things clear! It is much better than creating rules and leve them hidden from the public.

For the sake of clarity I am not interested in such a mod. But I am interested in understanding PDX reasoning.

For example I think muslims in EU4 are too strong religions and budhists are too weak ones. If I create a mod weakening muslims and enhancing budhists, will it be acceptable to upload on Steam?

Another example, I think very weird European powers colonizing the interior of Africa in EU4 time frame. If I create a mod giving maluses for all non-black-African cultures holding provinces in the interior of subsaharan Africa, will it be considered accaptable?

A third example, If I create a mod in EU4 (taking EU4 as example because I play it much more than CK series) with slave trade events that decrease African provinces DEV while increasing American provinces DEV, is it acceptable?

i think mine was the first reply to OP and i said that sometimes it's not the mod but the commentary it attracts.

i'll pm you and quote something more specific and you'll see what i'm talking about

 

[Karlington]

because you generally seem like a sensible, smart person.

Well, thank you for the kind words!

people are forgetting that we're talking about published mods and the thought of valve and/or PDX abusing people is a bit of a stretch.

..and having worked in government for 16 years there's a quite a bit of difference between 'discretion' and 'i can do what i want.' we're not all orange presidents, you know

Sorry if I was unclear, but I wrote:

"Please note that I am not saying that this has been the case in any of the examples brought up in this thread, I'm just saying that it's a possibility at any time human beings have to make decisions."

...as a way to try to say that I wasn't saying that that's the case here, only that the potential exists whenever discretion is involved. I don't think that Paradox has done this.

I don't know much about the situation in Australia in regards to exercise of discretion in decision-making, to be honest. Here in Europe it's generally not abused, though it happens. The EU has been pretty hardcore in ensuring that every member nation follows the ECHR which guarantees a right to appeal to a judicial body in many cases involving private parties vs governments, which has helped a lot in this regard.

My own country, Sweden, was actually notoriously bad for this. In a lot of cases where decisions were made that involved discretion there was no right to appeal (or the "appeal" was just a request for re-review by the same agency that made the decision). This is one of the reasons Sweden has had a pretty poor record before the European Court of Human Rights (not to be confused with the European Court of Justice, or "EU court").

(Off-topic, but now Sweden has gone the other way and enshrined a right for government employees to disregard the law if they find it violates the constitution, much like only judges can do in other countries, though that option is virtually never exercised. Can you imagine the stones it would take for someone to make a decision like that? )

 

[Agent.nihilist]

1. Please show me the rules saying modders are not allowed to upload mods changing the probabilities of specific features. All I read here was not clear about that. If you found something so clear please share it.

2. Of course depends on many things. But is simply chaging probabilities of features one of them? The debate going on in this thread shows the answer is not so straightforward.

Two big things here.

First, it's nearly impossible to have a real discussion about this without a concrete example. You've not provided this(through no fault of your own) so we're really arguing against an undefined idea, rather than any actual policy or example.

Second, as others have mentioned, the offensiveness of something is often 100% contained in the packaging.

Mods that alter sexuality outcomes are going to be fine, but if you package it as "Gay Begone" or something in a similar spirit if less blatantly offensive, Then it's almost certainly going to be removed.

While the community guidelines do not explicitly spell out what mechanics are acceptable, the idea is that the the guidelines rules set what is expected and acceptable behavior.
If the mod name/description violates those standards, expect it to be removed regardless of the mechanic it uses/alters.

 

[LSF]

...
Mods that alter sexuality outcomes are going to be fine, but if you package it as "Gay Begone" or something in a similar spirit if less blatantly offensive, Then it's almost certainly going to be removed.
...

Err... They deleted the thread asking how to do that. Without any offensive content. So it is not just the package that they took as offensive.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Well, thank you for the kind words!




Sorry if I was unclear, but I wrote:

"Please note that I am not saying that this has been the case in any of the examples brought up in this thread, I'm just saying that it's a possibility at any time human beings have to make decisions."

...as a way to try to say that I wasn't saying that that's the case here, only that the potential exists whenever discretion is involved. I don't think that Paradox has done this.

I don't know much about the situation in Australia in regards to exercise of discretion in decision-making, to be honest. Here in Europe it's generally not abused, though it happens. The EU has been pretty hardcore in ensuring that every member nation follows the ECHR which guarantees a right to appeal to a judicial body in many cases involving private parties vs governments, which has helped a lot in this regard.

My own country, Sweden, was actually notoriously bad for this. In a lot of cases where decisions were made that involved discretion there was no right to appeal (or the "appeal" was just a request for re-review by the same agency that made the decision). This is one of the reasons Sweden has had a pretty poor record before the European Court of Human Rights (not to be confused with the European Court of Justice, or "EU court").

(Off-topic, but now Sweden has gone the other way and enshrined a right for government employees to disregard the law if they find it violates the constitution, much like only judges can do in other countries, though that option is virtually never exercised. Can you imagine the stones it would take for someone to make a decision like that? )

to your two sweden points
1. omg really?
2. omg really?

 

[Karlington]

to your two sweden points
1. omg really?
2. omg really?

Hahaha, yes! Going to law school teaches you a lot about especially your own country's legal system (and EU law if your country is a member). You find out a lot of the good, the bad, and the ugly. And of course the downright weird, as mentioned.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Err... They deleted the thread asking how to do that. Without any offensive content. So it is not just the package that they took as offensive.

they probably took the view that they can't show any support for a mod that says 10% of people shouldn't exist. but i didn't see the thread and we're not really supposed to be commenting on forum mod decisions

 

[Agent.nihilist]

Err... They deleted the thread asking how to do that. Without any offensive content. So it is not just the package that they took as offensive.

This is standard. You are almost never allowed to discuss moderator actions on any forum or platform. It's usually baked directly into the rules.

Ergo the "through no fault of your own" line.

But simply put, without knowing the specifics of the example case it's 100% impossible to decide if the removal was warranted or an abuse.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

thing is, they're never going to provide a specific list of what's offensive, as this sort of thing has to be a judgement call made on a case-by-case basis.

@Karlington , thoughts?

 

[Karlington]

thing is, they're never going to provide a specific list of what's offensive, as this sort of thing has to be a judgement call made on a case-by-case basis.

@Karlington , thoughts?

I agree entirely. It is impossible to list every possible individual example of what would be a violation. This is why we need to use human beings who exercise discretion in decision-making.

Since we're talking about this in the context of a computer game, it's interesting to note that this is also why it's impossible to construct an AI that can reliably beat human players (without cheating). We simply can't create a list of variables for a computer to take into account that can match what the human brain is able to take into account.

(Inb4 someone brings it up, to the extent that they are provided to a computer, it can process them and make calculations to extents and speeds that human brains can only dream of.)

 

[Mhoirbheinn]

Just saw the thtead adking how to mod probabiliy

It's not that hard, if they didn't want it to be modded it wouldn't be moddable

#common\defines\00_defines.txt

    PERCENTAGE_HOMOSEXUAL = 5.0                # chance (0-100%) of a randomly created character being homosexual
    PERCENTAGE_BISEXUAL = 5.0                # chance (0-100%) of a randomly created character being bisexual
    PERCENTAGE_ASEXUAL = 1.0                # chance (0-100%) of a randomly created character being asexual