There is one feature that CK3 *desperately, desperately needs* and I havn't seen it discussed

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TRog53

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The feature needed is unique, changing events that change in every game of CK3 you play. It doesn't matter how many events CK3 creators lovingly craft; an advanced player will have seen them all, and after awhile blaze through them and treat them as annoying popups. What the game needs is GPT4 or other AI integration of chat models that can craft and disseminate *new* situational popups that are fresh, engaging, keep the player's attention and that have important effects on the game (i.e. so they should be read, the options carefully thought about, and the results should have quite material effects on the game instead of just tiny modifiers). In this way each new play-through will always feel real, new, engaging and ALIVE.

Do this and the game will be revolutionized.
 
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Hard to disagree with that. It would be indeed awsome. But is it realistic? Is it possible to make such a thing while keeping the game at a affordable price to most players, and functional to a avarage computer? I really don't know, but I suspect that if it was feasible, we would be seeing most, if not all, games integrating those advanced new AIs to it's systems. I imagine that kind of use for GPT like AI still a couple years away...
 
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Prompt:

Write code in the game's event scripting language for a Crusader Kings 3 event in which the active character encounters a hermit while on a journey.

GPT-4's output:

Code:
namespace = journey_hermit_event

############################################
# Main Event: Encounter with a Hermit
############################################

character_event = {
    id = journey_hermit_event.1
    title = journey_hermit_event.EVT_NAME_1
    desc = journey_hermit_event.EVT_DESC_1
    picture = GFX_evt_crusader_king_hermit_encounter
    
    trigger = {
        is_ruler = yes
        has_character_flag = character_on_journey_flag
    }

    immediate = {
        save_event_target_as = hermit_event_target
    }

    option = {
        name = journey_hermit_event.OPT_A_1
        add_piety = 25
        add_stress = -50
        add_character_modifier = {
            modifier = hermit_wisdom
            duration = 3650
        }
    }

    option = {
        name = journey_hermit_event.OPT_B_1
        add_prestige = 15
        add_stress = 25
        add_character_modifier = {
            modifier = hermit_suspicion
            duration = 3650
        }
    }
}

############################################
# Modifiers for event outcomes
############################################

character_modifier = {
    hermit_wisdom = {
        opinion_of_same_faith = 5
        learning = 2
    }
    hermit_suspicion = {
        opinion_of_same_faith = -5
        plot_power_increase = 0.1
    }
}

############################################
# Localisation strings
############################################

l_english: {
    journey_hermit_event.EVT_NAME_1:0 "A Hermit on Our Path"
    journey_hermit_event.EVT_DESC_1:0 "While journeying through the wilderness, you come across a hermit living in a small cave. The hermit is known for his wisdom and is revered by the local people. He offers to share some of his knowledge with you if you are willing to listen. What do you do?"
    journey_hermit_event.OPT_A_1:0 "Listen to his wisdom. (Gain Piety, Lose Stress, Gain Hermit's Wisdom modifier)"
    journey_hermit_event.OPT_B_1:0 "Ignore his ramblings. (Gain Prestige, Gain Stress, Gain Hermit's Suspicion modifier)"
}

GPT-4's comments:

This event script for Crusader Kings 3 creates an encounter with a hermit while the active character is on a journey. The character can either listen to the hermit's wisdom or ignore him, resulting in different outcomes. The event can only trigger for rulers who have the "character_on_journey_flag" flag set, and the outcomes include gaining piety, prestige, stress, or modifiers to learning, opinion, and plot power.

A little simplistic, but not too bad. I haven't checked whether all of its code is perfect. The event code alone is 787 tokens, which if generated with the ChatGPT-3.5 API would have cost 1/10th of a cent (although ChatGPT-3.5 might not be as good at this).
 
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A little simplistic, but not too bad. I haven't checked whether all of its code is perfect.
Two immediate criticisms of the event code:
  1. The event is written like it's the start of the chain (save_event_target), but it's supposed to be a free-standing event.
  2. The event fails to take character traits into account; there are so many traits for which the stress allocation is actively nonsensical.
It reminds me of when people ask AI art generators to draw a picture of a beautiful woman at the beach, and the resulting image has her hair blended seamlessly into the straps of her bikini top.
 
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AI isn't there yet. But AI assisted event writing could go a long way to writing events faster and more efficiently and really should be taken advantage of by devs.

It's just a great way to get a variety of ideas really fast pulling from deep pooled knowledge (and some chatbot lies).

What's more interesting to me though is that AI is getting really good at art and 100% is a great tool for visualizing ideas before the production phase.

It's strange but coding may actually largely be just requesting an AI write what you envision in the code and picking and tweaking it to your desire very soon. Finally you no longer have to be fully literal with computers, because they are getting better at finding context.
 
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Yes, this is naturally the next step in these sorts of games, but I wouldn't count on it occurring within this decade. Gaming companies seem very risk averse and not brave as of late
 
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Prompt:



GPT-4's output:

Code:
namespace = journey_hermit_event

############################################
# Main Event: Encounter with a Hermit
############################################

character_event = {
    id = journey_hermit_event.1
    title = journey_hermit_event.EVT_NAME_1
    desc = journey_hermit_event.EVT_DESC_1
    picture = GFX_evt_crusader_king_hermit_encounter
  
    trigger = {
        is_ruler = yes
        has_character_flag = character_on_journey_flag
    }

    immediate = {
        save_event_target_as = hermit_event_target
    }

    option = {
        name = journey_hermit_event.OPT_A_1
        add_piety = 25
        add_stress = -50
        add_character_modifier = {
            modifier = hermit_wisdom
            duration = 3650
        }
    }

    option = {
        name = journey_hermit_event.OPT_B_1
        add_prestige = 15
        add_stress = 25
        add_character_modifier = {
            modifier = hermit_suspicion
            duration = 3650
        }
    }
}

############################################
# Modifiers for event outcomes
############################################

character_modifier = {
    hermit_wisdom = {
        opinion_of_same_faith = 5
        learning = 2
    }
    hermit_suspicion = {
        opinion_of_same_faith = -5
        plot_power_increase = 0.1
    }
}

############################################
# Localisation strings
############################################

l_english: {
    journey_hermit_event.EVT_NAME_1:0 "A Hermit on Our Path"
    journey_hermit_event.EVT_DESC_1:0 "While journeying through the wilderness, you come across a hermit living in a small cave. The hermit is known for his wisdom and is revered by the local people. He offers to share some of his knowledge with you if you are willing to listen. What do you do?"
    journey_hermit_event.OPT_A_1:0 "Listen to his wisdom. (Gain Piety, Lose Stress, Gain Hermit's Wisdom modifier)"
    journey_hermit_event.OPT_B_1:0 "Ignore his ramblings. (Gain Prestige, Gain Stress, Gain Hermit's Suspicion modifier)"
}

GPT-4's comments:



A little simplistic, but not too bad. I haven't checked whether all of its code is perfect. The event code alone is 787 tokens, which if generated with the ChatGPT-3.5 API would have cost 1/10th of a cent (although ChatGPT-3.5 might not be as good at this).

I guess it isn't too bad if you want to define 'not too bad' as 'doesn't work whatsoever'. Just off a quick scan, there's a random save_event_target, it's missing a stress block, the localisation is written from the wrong perspective, it's missing some loc, the option text has random brackets listing effects, and some of the effects themselves don't even exist.

I think the more pertinent point is, though, that it doesn't actually combat what's being said in the OP at all. 'Advanced players' who don't read events because they've memorised them won't read this one either, they'll just skip right to mousing over the option text and making a decision there. Making actual good and engaging content that engages the players who want to engage with it should be the focus here.

Two immediate criticisms of the event code:
  1. The event is written like it's the start of the chain (save_event_target), but it's supposed to be a free-standing event.
  2. The event fails to take character traits into account; there are so many traits for which the stress allocation is actively nonsensical.
It reminds me of when people ask AI art generators to draw a picture of a beautiful woman at the beach, and the resulting image has her hair blended seamlessly into the straps of her bikini top.

Very true. It's like 80% correct, but that's as good as 0% for actual use. Put that event to be generated dynamically in-game and it's either just not going to trigger or it's going to fire an erroring mess.
 
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I think the more pertinent point is, though, that it doesn't actually combat what's being said in the OP at all. 'Advanced players' who don't read events because they've memorised them won't read this one either, they'll just skip right to mousing over the option text and making a decision there.

I feel... oddly violated and personally attacked here.
 
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I feel... oddly violated and personally attacked here.

CK3 is for everyone! If you don't want to read my painstakingly-made, lovingly-crafted event text that I infuse with love and passion and send off to the player with a neat little bow and then stay up at night thinking about how it'll be received... and instead skip right to the options to just click one randomly, then that's absolutely your prerogative and I promise you I won't be bitter about it at all, as you can clearly see.
 
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To expand upon my: "no".

AI is something that interests me greatly, but solely plugging it in and using it is not the way to go. Using deep learning AI for things is fascinating, but people underestimate the sheer frustration of getting it to give you something useful.

Overfitting, underfitting, data samples, there are a lot of things involved in making a useful deep learning AI. AI models must be highly specialized, and this is something that requires hundreds of thousands and millions of data samples to even start to train in a good way. And even then, you need to ensure you don't overfit or underfit it. It is an exercise in frustration.

I do not think plugging an AI like this into the game is the way to go for Crusader Kings 3 at this stage. Like @PDS_Noodle said: if it only gets 80% there, it is 0% there.

AI is a tool to assist developers, nothing more, nothing less, and even then it's incredibly unreliable right now.
 
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To expand upon my: "no".

AI is something that interests me greatly, but solely plugging it in and using it is not the way to go. Using deep learning AI for things is fascinating, but people underestimate the sheer frustration of getting it to give you something useful.

Overfitting, underfitting, data samples, there are a lot of things involved in making a useful deep learning AI. AI models must be highly specialized, and this is something that requires hundreds of thousands and millions of data samples to even start to train in a good way. And even then, you need to ensure you don't overfit or underfit it. It is an exercise in frustration.

I do not think plugging an AI like this into the game is the way to go for Crusader Kings 3 at this stage. Like @PDS_Noodle said: if it only gets 80% there, it is 0% there.

AI is a tool to assist developers, nothing more, nothing less, and even then it's incredibly unreliable right now.
one of the great things about it too is how techbros and business dudes consistently envision ai use not to, for instance, assist in the creation of art, but to replace the human element entirely. if ai could, indeed, program events for us here, first thing that would happen is people would get laid off regardless of the actual event quality. poor but workable is good enough when youre callously evaluating profits and dont particularly care about the end product

its very frustrating, bc ai could be an excellent tool. ai could be used to assist in animation for, like, colouring frames maybe, but bc people with power and money cant be trusted with it, it effectively has to be a hard no. to me, its important that the game crusader kings 3 is made by people. its important that art is made by people generally. every human person puts a part of themselves into their art, and the creation of art is a critical part of the human experience. absolutely WILD that these ai programs start getting developed and the first thing people want to do with it is get rid of the joy of creation so that people can focus on labour that amounts to little more than monotonous drudgery

if you dont actually care about the integrity of art and just want to churn out "content" then yeah, sure, ai art is the thing for you i guess. nevermind the fact that it plagiarises human content and the ai isnt even creating anything in the first place, all you want is to view some big tiddy anime wench and pop a huge boner. congrats, youre the lowest common denominator, great job

the problem isnt that ai is bad at these things right now. the problem is that it will eventually get better. im being pretty harsh here in this videogames forum post, and i dont mean to insult anyone excited about the possibilities of ai, but it is really quite frustrating to watch this stuff happen in realtime. robots taking human jobs should be a good thing, it should mean humans can focus on the stuff that makes life actually matter, but instead it means literally the opposite of that bc hellscape hellscape hellscape hellscape hel[continued ad nauseum until i pass out and die]
 
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I don't want PDX to replace their experienced event writers who put their heart on what they're doing with AI devs that curate a dataset, tweak some weights around, see an acceptable string of results, and call it a day.

I do not always enjoy being a human, but I cannot part ways with the joy of reading a piece of text crafted by a fellow meatbag.
 
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PDXOxycoon

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HK-47 said:
Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometres away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.
Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, 'love' is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and strangely enough, not many meatbags would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose... against statistically long odds...
We can learn much from HK-47. Although in this case, I much prefer the love our designers give us when they work their craft.
 
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Torredebelem

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an advanced player will have seen them all, and after awhile blaze through them and treat them as annoying popups.
Well crafted events with options that pose dilemmas and offer meaningful alternatives for the player to pick and that are situational in nature (depending on the present character stats or the dynamic stats of the game world) will never be considered as "annoying popups".
 
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halbort

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one of the great things about it too is how techbros and business dudes consistently envision ai use not to, for instance, assist in the creation of art, but to replace the human element entirely. if ai could, indeed, program events for us here, first thing that would happen is people would get laid off regardless of the actual event quality. poor but workable is good enough when youre callously evaluating profits and dont particularly care about the end product

its very frustrating, bc ai could be an excellent tool. ai could be used to assist in animation for, like, colouring frames maybe, but bc people with power and money cant be trusted with it, it effectively has to be a hard no. to me, its important that the game crusader kings 3 is made by people. its important that art is made by people generally. every human person puts a part of themselves into their art, and the creation of art is a critical part of the human experience. absolutely WILD that these ai programs start getting developed and the first thing people want to do with it is get rid of the joy of creation so that people can focus on labour that amounts to little more than monotonous drudgery

if you dont actually care about the integrity of art and just want to churn out "content" then yeah, sure, ai art is the thing for you i guess. nevermind the fact that it plagiarises human content and the ai isnt even creating anything in the first place, all you want is to view some big tiddy anime wench and pop a huge boner. congrats, youre the lowest common denominator, great job

the problem isnt that ai is bad at these things right now. the problem is that it will eventually get better. im being pretty harsh here in this videogames forum post, and i dont mean to insult anyone excited about the possibilities of ai, but it is really quite frustrating to watch this stuff happen in realtime. robots taking human jobs should be a good thing, it should mean humans can focus on the stuff that makes life actually matter, but instead it means literally the opposite of that bc hellscape hellscape hellscape hellscape hel[continued ad nauseum until i pass out and die]

I don't know who these "tech bros" are. I have worked in technology my whole life. I don't know how anyone thinks AI will replace human writers.

Right now, GPT is regurgitating writing (by humans) it has already found on the internet. This means its good at writing stuff people have already written before but not very good at creating genuinely new things. Real world programming relies on creating new things so I don't see how it would be effective from a creative perspective.

Moreover, right now GPT is pretty bad from a logical standpoint though it gets the syntax of writing down. I think there is a lot of work to be done to make perform as well in logical reasoning as a human.

My takeaway is that this AI will be eventually rolled out into productivity tools like IDES, Word, Photoshop etc. Ultimately, I think it will just be used to help speed up their existing processes. For programming, I see it being used as a better code completion assistant. This is how it is being used where I work.

For AI art, I think its only a matter of time where a digital fingerprint can be added to online art that shows what AI art used each source image. I think some sort of advanced copyright is inevitable. Ultimately, the AI needs human samples to copy to be effective. If you want a new style, you need more samples. People are just using open source research projects from CS academia. I think it we will see it just added as a tool in a Photoshop type application.
 
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Tiax

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I guess it isn't too bad if you want to define 'not too bad' as 'doesn't work whatsoever'. Just off a quick scan, there's a random save_event_target, it's missing a stress block, the localisation is written from the wrong perspective, it's missing some loc, the option text has random brackets listing effects, and some of the effects themselves don't even exist.

I think the more pertinent point is, though, that it doesn't actually combat what's being said in the OP at all. 'Advanced players' who don't read events because they've memorised them won't read this one either, they'll just skip right to mousing over the option text and making a decision there. Making actual good and engaging content that engages the players who want to engage with it should be the focus here.
I defined "not too bad" as "I was expecting it to have no idea what I was talking about" :p
 
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Knotz

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I work with undergrads and recently my professor prompted ChatGPT to give him six essays on how Descartes intersects with Derrida. Now, granted, that's pretty esoteric but what it generated was decently written. In fact, it read more or less exactly like how an undergrad who studied enough to adopt the parlance but actually has no clue what's going on would write. The form was there but the content, the understanding, wasn't. If you asked me, a lay person but who has seen CK event code, I would have said "Yip, that sure does look like a functioning CK3 code" but apparently it's not. It's passable for form, not content.

Besides, the issue is that events are formulaic and this would be more of the same. Now, I admit, I was one of the people who clamored for more events early in CK3's cycle because I did think that was what was missing. Turns out, it's not. At least not these kinds of events. Events are too prone to give me like, say -50 control in Gloucestershire because I killed a peasant or w/e. Now, logically I know that's bad and might result in an uprising but the two feel unrelated. Something small like an event that says "Turns out the brother of that peasant I killed now leads a rebellion against me!" might feel more substantive but I'm unsure of how feasible that is. Another things is friends. In theory we have an entire event pack dedicated to that and I can have 7 friends who might as well be one person because they all play the same role ie stress relief but I also mean in events. Like, a friend who is sadistic, wrathful and paranoid should be a different kind of friend than someone who is content, forgiving and generous. Same with romance, getting a soulmate shouldn't always involve saving or being saved from a thief in the night. The easy answer is 5 or 6 more ways of getting a soulmate. The more complex but maaaybe more satisfying solution is feeling like you're becoming a soulmate with THIS INDIVIDUAL in particular and not just clicking the requisite buttons to get a fertility boost. Something else is that for some reason the events and the mechanics feel almost distinct. Like when I think interesting mechanics in CK3, the things I tick off to make the game interesting, its culture, religion, domain and warfare. Yet there are comparatively few events that engage with these mechanics. Like I've now decided the Welsh let woman take up arms. Shouldn't that mean something? It takes decades to be adopted which seems to suggest a gradual and potentially contentious process but no events. My domain is one of the richest and most highly developed counties in the known world, no events. Some of my individual knights kill hundreds in pitched battle, no events. My heresy has carved Catholicism in twain in the span of decades, shouldn't I get some events about religious massacres of Catholics or panicked letters from the Pope before a Crusade?

So, yeah. I don't envy the task of making events somehow... more-feeling, especially since I find it quite difficult to articulate what I feel is missing in the first place but I think a greater sense of cause and effect and adding some meaningful events to meaningful mechanics might help? And then, say what you will about the immortality questline but it's probably the most memorable event the series has ever had. Yes, admittedly a lot of that is because of memes but I had some GREAT stories about my immortal rulers. I realize CK3 is the more milquetoast historical iteration but if we can't have nice things ahistoricity we should at least get a few analogous wildcards that give a similar sense of (1) sense of achievement and (2) fundamentally changing the mechanics of the game.
 
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