[Theorycrafting] Min-Maxing Administration; aka 'Hyper tall' in 2.2

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RyuujinZERO

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tl;dr: Trait/Civic for reduced housing needs, stockpile minerals as you build up normally, rush ecumenopolis, factory arcology up, stockpile alloys, rush matter decompressor, then dyson sphere, reallocate energy and mining districts to focus on food/city districts, build labs until you are sick, build habitats/colonise junk worlds using just housing structures, for the building slots if you need more space. Build more ecumenopoli to support them if you need, and more farm worlds to support those if you need?



So, since 2.2 I've been looking on Reddit, here on Paradox forums, YouTube, and experimenting with the console and just number crunching and theory-crafting in general to try and figure out how to get the absolute most bang-per-buck out your admin cap, and achieve absurd Science output without incurring a significant administration penalty.

But, I'm coming up against the limits of what one perspective can achieve and figured I'd share what I'd learned and see if anyone else can provide any further insights to improve my theorycrafting.


So in no particular order, I present some of my realizations, thoughts and theories:

Districts, Buildings and Pops
Districts are essential in the early game and increase admin costs by 1 per district. But in the mid to late game there is lots of ways to produce the same resources via buildings or other structures, which means as your empire evolves, you might consider deconstructing districts, and replacing them with non-district alternatives or more efficient counterparts

Taken to it's logical extreme any planet no matter how tiny (Even a habitat), could house up to 60-80 pops through paradise domes/luxury housing, and have space left for 5 or 6 other structures like research labs and factories, for a flat cost of 2 admin cap, because it has no districts whatsoever. For this reason traits and civics that reduce housing needs like Fertile, Communal, Byzantine Bureaucracy and the Adaptability ascension tree are all extremely valuable, as is the shared burden civic which gives you access to communal housing, which is more efficient than luxury housing.

Of course in that extreme model you still have to get your resources from SOMEWHERE.


Habitats and Garbage-tier planets
As examined earlier, habitats and planets with junk surface resources/extremely small size can still be used to construct factories, labs and housing for the flat cost of the colony (2 admin), however planets are numerically limited, and habitats need large amounts of resources to build in the first place.

This strategy also only works with buildings that have high job needs, like high tier factories and labs, since you need 5 pops for every 1 structure unlock, and refineries only use 1 job, and farms only use 2 jobs; for that reason alone it's impossible to make 'farm habitats' in this manner for district-free farming without massive unemployment. To make food yourself, you're pretty much gonna have to allocate districts to farming.


Megastructures:
Dyson spheres and Matter Decompressors are god-tier, providing vast amounts of energy and minerals for no admin cost beyond that of the system they reside in and don't even take up pops. But they are very much late game. Nonetheless they're definitely a project to shoot for as a high priority, the sooner you get them the sooner you can explode productivity and get people off mineral/energy jobs, into labs and maybe even ditch the associated districts.

Ringworlds on the flipside are, as far as I can see, total trash. Providing just 2 jobs and a few homes per district, and the same number of building slots as a planet or hab. The only value here is they allow for unlimited, consolidated energy and food production districts. But if you can build a ringworld, you should probably have used it to build a dyson sphere, not a ringworld full of energy districts (There's that evil word again!), unless you were doing it to consolidate food production.


Ecumenopoli
Ecumenopoli exist in an interesting position. Each of their districts are excellent value for the investment of admin capacity, providing typically 10 jobs and plenty of housing, plus ecumenopoli industrial districts don't need exotic resources like their building-based brethren which means you waste less minerals, energy, admin cap and jobs to produce them lower down the chain. But, they are still an investment of admin capacity.



So, this brings me to the game plan for actually applying all this.

First I should clarify, a lot of the examples cited above are the absolute logical extreme my goal is to keep as close to admin cap as possible, while getting the best bang per buck from it. Building districts in the early game is unavoidable, because there is no good alternative.

The secret lies in strategically peeling away admin-heavy options as new options arise. For example ditching related exotic material refineries once you have an ecumenopoli to free up those building slots for housing and ditching the associated city districts on that world; a matter decompressor would basically replace your need for mining districts almost completely, but you should only strip away your old mining districts in a controlled fashion as you need to reallocate the admin capacity to somewhere else.



But there's more to be mulled over and perhaps other people can provide some insight in these


Trade Vs Consumer Goods/Energy Production
Trade is an excellent candidate for trash/habitat planets, since commercial megaplexes give 11 jobs per structure, and essentially consume nothing but food, to produce energy and consumer goods. The problem is the consumer goods surplus is extremely low for the number of pops required to generate them, even when you take into account the other jobs that feed into it, like miners, refiners and technicians. Can this be leveraged as a primary means of production?

Food production Vs the Galactic Market
Food is the one commodity that cannot be produced in useful quantities via buildings alone, you're always going to have to district some amount of food production if you plan to feed yourselves. However, as seen above, energy is one thing that CAN be produced without an admin cost. How viable might it be to just create energy and trade for your food needs?

Are districtless habitats/planets actually worth building?
As illustrated earlier, habitats can be used in the same way as junk planets, using them just for their building slots, so for 2 admin capacity, you can build a bunch of buildings in space. But, habitats are pretty expensive to set up, and it takes a long time for their pops to grow, are they actually worth it; furthermore to utilise them optimally, you're going to need to use paradise domes (Or better still, Utopian Communal Housing), not luxury housing which means exotic resources and significant resource upkeep, and resources often means districts.

Unemployed Pops and Utopian Abundance
Under Utopian abundance, pops produce a small amount of unity and science. As mentioned much earlier, planets/habitats eschewing districts entirely, can't make good use of small-employment buildings like refineries or hydroponics farms, because you end up with shedloads of unemployed; however if those unemployed are a resource could they compensate for it? - Is their upkeep worth their productivity?



In summary, the amount of 'real' tall streamlining that can be done, compared to just naturalisticlly playing an ecumenopolis builder is probably not super significant, but you never know unless you really step back and examine it.

I hope if nothing else some of these insights might give people some ideas to streamline their empires, and on the flipside, maybe I'm wrong and we can figure out the next 1 planet strategy and totally break the game :D
 
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Derp

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sounds like a whole lot of work to negate a penalty that isn't very significant and end up with an empire that is still a lot weaker, economically and technologically speaking, than a normal one
 

y1kdcb5au9rqw

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Arguably you could solve the food problem with livestock slavery getting lots of food with no need for buildings nor districts and very low housing needs.

Domestic servitude also gets pop count up with low housing but less useful as you don't really need the amenities.
 

RyuujinZERO

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sounds like a whole lot of work to negate a penalty that isn't very significant and end up with an empire that is still a lot weaker, economically and technologically speaking, than a normal one
I tried going hyper-wide in my first game, the administration penalty really does start to dig in after 20-30 planets; also the amount of micromanagement involved with that many planets becomes absurd. Hyper-wide is almost certainly comparable if not superior, but quality of life diminishes quickly as the micromanagement snowballs.

There is definitely a sweet-spot to be found and this theorycrafting is to a) find where that lies and b) whether tall can potentially out-perform wide.

What are you using your society research on if not repeatable admin capacity?

Repeatable admin capacity. Like I clarify repeatedly in the post, unused admin capacity is wasted capacity. The theorycrafting is based around how to maximise every drop of that capacity without incurring significant penalties, we're not trying to make 1 planet to rule them all.
 

r3xm0rt1s

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But would you not at some point have sufficient capacity to build (back) those districts? Habitable worlds are a limited resource. Even habitat spamming will run out of potential lebensraum eventually. Researchers use an insane amount of consumer goods. At some point a single matter decompressor will not be sufficient.

The math whether at some point it is worth temporarily demolishing mining districts because population grows too slowly to make use of all mineral income right now, whether in artisan jobs or researchers utilising those goods seems complex.
 

1Evilgenius

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Its all a nice thoughed experiment, but it is hardly worth it. Going over administrative cap is not something that has a big impact on how fast you can get through the tech and unity trees. Ofcourse dont over do it by building unnecessary districts, but aslong as you compensate for going over the cap, alls fine.

Now i know you are theory crafting here, and i get where you are coming from. What is the optimal point, where you get a strong economy and the fastest posible tech/unity gain. I believe (i haven no real data) this is around 3 or maybe 4 times the administrative cap. That gives you alot of room for district building and colonies.

Just in case you are going to work out your theory some more (i am interested to see the results, it a good thing too think about), to get around the need for food district you could go for synthetic evolution ascension perk. They dont need food, just energy and still have trade routes.
 

HisRotundity

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This is more of a thought experiment than anything else, so questions like "why not just increase your admin cap" or "just ignore your admin cap because it's largely a non-issue" aren't very useful: the premise is to try and squeeze the most possible value out of the lowest possible admin cap, which I think is a valuable and interesting train of thought to explore.
 

GAGA Extrem

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If you really want to play Hyper-Tall, I'd argue that Agrarian Idyll is the best civic you can pick. It allows you to completely forgo city districts, which means you will maximize resource production per admin cap, while still providing enough housing to unlock all building slots on any size 16+ planet (or even smaller in case you want to stack housing reduction effects).
 

y1kdcb5au9rqw

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I find it much more interesting to see what you can actually get out of a 2 admin cap colony just using the 16 buildings without any districts at all. That is a lot of colonies if you go say 4 times over the admin cap...
 

RyuujinZERO

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If you really want to play Hyper-Tall, I'd argue that Agrarian Idyll is the best civic you can pick. It allows you to completely forgo city districts, which means you will maximize resource production per admin cap, while still providing enough housing to unlock all building slots on any size 16+ planet (or even smaller in case you want to stack housing reduction effects).
That's what I first thought, and experimented with heavily - in large part because I just love the concept of it so much. My go-to race are nature-loving agrarian idyllic pacifist foxes so I really wanted to vindicate that playstyle numerically :p

Agrarian Idyll does fair better than most builds, especially if you are going wider, and doubly so combined with housing reduction perks, since as you say, you can completely eschew the need for city districts. But once you get into the late game, you have the matter decompressor which can feed factories without needing to invest so many districts/jobs into mining y, suddenly factory arcologies in an ecumenopolis starts looking mighty attractive, and, agrarian idyll as you're probably aware, is locked out of taking the arcology project ascension perk.

By the very late game where you might have a decompressor *and* a dyson sphere up, so the only things you need to be spending districts on is food and housing (for a while anyway), in which case ecumenopoli give 2-3 times as much housing space per district spent, and Agrarian Idyll's reduced capacity city districting is actively working against it if you are trying to optimise admin costs. (I do also recognise this particular conclusion may exist in something of a data vacuum. Like, an ecumenopolis is just 1 planet, and thus one set of building tiles, and by necessity, you're going to have to build additional colonies for additional buildings and food, and agrarian idyll is getting a lot more bang per buck from it's food tiles).

tl;dr Agrarian Idyll is a REALLY strong civic I love to death, but I'm not convinced it's optimal for this.
 
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Objulen

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Even if focusing on this particular game play experiment isn't of interest, the general principles that it draws on can help with optimization. Afterall, even if you're supposed to go over them, admin penalties and still penalties, so shifting around production and management to help minimize those penalties can still be helpful.
 

anamiac

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Interesting, but I'm more interested in finding out where the sweet spot is. For instance, if your admin cap is 30 and you're at 30, then going to 60 could double your research and unity income and it would cost you 9% increased tech cost and 15% increased tradition cost. Definitely worth it. So if you're given the option of doubling your economic output at the cost of doubling your administrative capacity, should you ever turn it down? Almost never. I've done the research, and as long as you're able to increase your research and unity output linearly , then it depends on how high your admin cap is.

200 is the breaking point for Unity. If your admin cap is 200, then a size 200 empire producing 20 unity is going to be discovering traditions at the same rate as a size 600 empire producing 60 monthly unity.

333.33 is the breaking point for science. If your admin cap is 340+, a size 400 empire producing 400 science is going to gain technologies slightly faster than a size 800 empire producing 800 science. If the admin cap is 330- though, the bigger empire comes out ahead.

You can play around with the numbers on my spreadsheet.
 

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GAGA Extrem

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[...] By the very late game where you might have a decompressor *and* a dyson sphere up, so the only things you need to be spending districts on is food and housing (for a while anyway), in which case ecumenopoli give 2-3 times as much housing space per district spent, and Agrarian Idyll's reduced capacity city districting is actively working against it if you are trying to optimise admin costs. [...]
I mean, if we seriously take Megastructures into consideration but ignore the fact that admin cap becomes mostly pointless after year ~120 (due to repeatables), this whole exercise is indeed just non-applicable theorycrafting. In my last game I had reached Admin Efficiency 25 around year 200, which was enough to support my whole empire, including several Habitats and a full Ringworld with more than 50 cap to spare.

So not sure how to feel about that argument. Hm.
 
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