"Theoretical" Technologies

[Furutta]

You can't build a space elevator without the required technologies. So the prerequisite technologies would get you access to the new toy. As for the high tensile materials, what other benefits do they have? Improved ablative armor? A more secure dome habitat for inhospitable planets. It's not like each tech need unlock a single benefit.

Precisely, the "High tensile materials" tech would unlock several of these, immediately, when you finish it.

I'd still point out that there are a lot of "theoretical technologies" currently on earth. For example, we currently have a working design for a warp drive, but it requires a material that doesn't exist (yet, or may never exist) and a power source far more efficient than any we currently have. A space elevator may be rendered possible by carbon nano-tubes; the only difficult being the expense of building one (and where to locate it. On a tall mountain near the equator is the best bet.)

Saying we have a working design for something, but that it requires a material that doesn't exist is exactly what I'm talking about. Sure, there should be some tech about "Spacetime Manipulation" that unlocks the Alcubierre Drive, but there is no justification, from a game design standpoint or from a "research works this way" standpoint. The things that would qualify as "Theoretical Technologies" are, in Victoria terms, Inventions, not "Technologies", and would be handled in the background via events if modeling to that level was important (My guess is the Devs feel no). When I direct my Physics science team to develop positron lasers or something, I figure I'm basically doing something akin to starting the Manhattan Project, not asking Miguel Alcubierre to sit in his office and postulate on some cool thing we could do with materials that we have no conception of how to make.

 

[aitaituo]

Yeah, it'd be pointless and annoying to have to "research" techs that don't do anything. The tech progression is already going to be fairly opaque from the deck system. It's not interesting to research something that only affects the chance of getting something useful in the feature and might not come up for hundreds of years. If you've started researching something, it means you already have at least a basic theory of how that thing would work anyway.

 

[MrTrt]

Have you played Victoria II? If you haven't, in that game you have "technologies" and "inventions". Inventions become available once you have certain technological prerequisites, and they have a chance to be discovered each month. For me, this idea is nice, but it'd be nicer if "Space Elevators" were just an invention. As you said, it's not a technology itself. In my opninon, technology should be limited to "theoretical" and "lab" science, while inventions would be more applied science (I.e., engineering)

 

[Shaktari]

You can't build a space elevator without the required technologies. So the prerequisite technologies would get you access to the new toy. As for the high tensile materials, what other benefits do they have? Improved ablative armor? A more secure dome habitat for inhospitable planets. It's not like each tech need unlock a single benefit.

I'd still point out that there are a lot of "theoretical technologies" currently on earth. For example, we currently have a working design for a warp drive, but it requires a material that doesn't exist (yet, or may never exist) and a power source far more efficient than any we currently have. A space elevator may be rendered possible by carbon nano-tubes; the only difficult being the expense of building one (and where to locate it. On a tall mountain near the equator is the best bet.)

Fusion power is still a theoretical technology, but France is turning a plant on in 2017. The LHC was just a theory until it was actually built. The same applies to airplanes, rifled bullets, submarines, communications satellites, the moon lander, etc.

Everything is a theory until we have the technology we need to make it.

Yes, true, but this is a game, so i guess the question then becomes, which do you feel would be more fun, a Sci-fi 4x game that is realistic as possible, or one that take some liberties to to have a fun balanced game?

Unless i am just missing your point, which is a possibility ^.^

 

[General Karthos]

Yes, true, but this is a game, so i guess the question then becomes, which do you feel would be more fun, a Sci-fi 4x game that is realistic as possible, or one that take some liberties to to have a fun balanced game?

Unless i am just missing your point, which is a possibility ^.^

I guess y'all are missing my point, and I've tried in several ways to express it. Perhaps I'm not good at communicating. Perhaps the community as whole feels "this is the way games have always been, so this is the way they should always be". I don't know for sure. I'm going to leave aside the reason and focus on what we've heard.

Paradox has said they're looking at something more complicated than a simple technology "tree". If we're looking at something like an interconnected "web" of technologies, say with central, vital technologies with a high probability of coming up, and then other technologies spread out across the "web".

So, while I still think theoretical technologies would work, let's step a little bit back along the same lines, and instead of "theoretical technologies" maybe think of "interconnected technologies"?

Let's look at three interrelated (possible) technologies: "High Tensile Materials", "Domed Habitats", and "Advanced Manufacturing". On their own, each technology would have a benefit. "HIgh Tensile Materials" would let you build better armor for your ships and buildings. "Domed Habitats" would let you build settlements on more hostile worlds, like Mars or the Moon in our own solar system. Perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter. "Advanced Manufacturing" would let you build buildings or construction materials (however building things works) faster. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Domed Habitats" would let you settle on still more hostile worlds, like Venus or Titan. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Advanced Manufacturing" would allow you to produce more complicated materials or stronger buildings. "Advanced Manufacturing" plus "Domed Habitats" would allow your domed habitats to expand more rapidly, increasing the population potential of buildings on the world. Finally, all three would allow establishing a quick-growing colony on a highly-hostile world.

Perhaps some technologies in one branch unlock additional benefits of different technologies in the other two branches.

Each one of them individually has benefits, but the three of them interact to unlock other benefits.

There are a plethora of real life technologies that correspond to THIS idea. Personal Computers and the Internet. Before personal computers, the internet was contained to enormous computers usually located in large Universities and Government buildings, but they still provided access to a vast amount of information. With the advent of Personal Computers, people could write and print documents from home without having to rely on typewriters or hand-writing their papers. When the Internet and Personal Computers came together, the internet exploded. You can find information about just about anything you want online, plus entertainment, pointless diversion, etc. Using the internet and personal computers we can have this argument with people we have never met, never will meet, and would never have met without the internet and personal computers.

 

[aitaituo]

I think it already works that way, Karthos.

 

[LordLlamahat]

That is why the game does not have a “tech tree” in the classical sense. Instead, each time you start up a new research project, you are presented with three semi-random choices. This is a bit like drawing three cards from a deck of cards, picking one and returning the other two to the deck. However, to continue with this metaphor, the trick is in the shuffling... The deck is very much stacked, so to speak. Especially in the early game, some cards are extremely likely to end up in the top, so that all players get a fair start. What happens in the background is a complex weighting of various factors, like the ethics of the empire, the traits of the scientist character in charge of the department, the techs you already have, etc. I guess you could say the result is something like a fuzzy, hidden tech tree.

Certain technologies are considered rare or very rare, and these are clearly marked so that you know you should probably pick them lest you never see them again... There are also “tech cards” outside the deck (this card metaphor is really useful!), that can only be drawn in special circumstances, like when researching certain Anomalies, investigating debris, etc.

From the dev diary on technology. This clearly states that some technologies can appear once, then perhaps not again for a very long time (I hesitate to say never because there is no endpoint, but likely some games will have technologies show up once then never again before they end). Additionally, Doomdark makes it clear that tech in Stellaris is far from a linear progression, even if they do make sure that there are some techs more likely to appear early on and some later. We know also, from elsewhere in the thread, that some techs require other techs to be researched first before you can develop the tech. They have prerequisites. Just to settle some confusion regarding the tech system.

Now I, for one, think it's a great idea to include this theoretical research. The point's been made that it exists in real life, which is certainly true, but I think it also represents the potential for some interesting twists in gameplay.

Imagine you're at war with a race of alien hyperturtles that have recently colonized some planets near your empire. They seem to be lagging far behind in tech, their lasers unable to pierce your walls of pure energy, their puny power armor proving no match for your armies of 50-foot-tall deathbots. As you sit upon the veritable mountain of skulls that you have had packed into your spaceship with much difficulty (on the part of slaves), you receive a notice from your underlings. It seems that your forces are falling rapidly before the space turtles that once they would crush like regular turtles beneath a steamroller! As it turns out, they've just reverse-engineered a ship of yours they managed to fell in the early years of the war, gaining knowledge of the ultra-hard materials used to create your ships. Quickly incorporating them into pre-existing power armor designs, their infantry becomes nigh-unstoppable and quickly crush your poorly-designed killbots. Additionally, many years ago they developed plans for incredibly fast and durable space ships, but lacked materials both light and strong enough to implement them. Much as we have designs for space elevators without the materials ready to build them. Within a few months the shell-clad astral reptiles that once seemed so close to complete extermination stand at your capital, billions of broken robots at their feet armor-clad feet. But your scientists are working on a new method of harvesting energy with incredible efficiency that should make those plans for a star system-destroying superweapon the same researchers developed some years ago finally viable...

Additionally, I think it would make for a great dilemma to be offered a choice between one incredibly powerful technology that you can't yet use but otherwise may not be available to your researchers for centuries, and one that is less useful, but available as soon as you finish research. One is given the option of taking the more immediately beneficial choice or planning ahead and investing in a technology with benefits not immediately apparent, and I personally always love such problems when done well. Plus, could allow for species to lag behind at first, but truly come into their own in the later game (if they survive). Would be interesting to have the backwards mollusks across the (Milky) way suddenly leap ahead of their pachyderm neighbors in technological capabilities.

 

[MrTrt]

I guess y'all are missing my point, and I've tried in several ways to express it. Perhaps I'm not good at communicating. Perhaps the community as whole feels "this is the way games have always been, so this is the way they should always be". I don't know for sure. I'm going to leave aside the reason and focus on what we've heard.

Paradox has said they're looking at something more complicated than a simple technology "tree". If we're looking at something like an interconnected "web" of technologies, say with central, vital technologies with a high probability of coming up, and then other technologies spread out across the "web".

So, while I still think theoretical technologies would work, let's step a little bit back along the same lines, and instead of "theoretical technologies" maybe think of "interconnected technologies"?

Let's look at three interrelated (possible) technologies: "High Tensile Materials", "Domed Habitats", and "Advanced Manufacturing". On their own, each technology would have a benefit. "HIgh Tensile Materials" would let you build better armor for your ships and buildings. "Domed Habitats" would let you build settlements on more hostile worlds, like Mars or the Moon in our own solar system. Perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter. "Advanced Manufacturing" would let you build buildings or construction materials (however building things works) faster. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Domed Habitats" would let you settle on still more hostile worlds, like Venus or Titan. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Advanced Manufacturing" would allow you to produce more complicated materials or stronger buildings. "Advanced Manufacturing" plus "Domed Habitats" would allow your domed habitats to expand more rapidly, increasing the population potential of buildings on the world. Finally, all three would allow establishing a quick-growing colony on a highly-hostile world.

Perhaps some technologies in one branch unlock additional benefits of different technologies in the other two branches.

Each one of them individually has benefits, but the three of them interact to unlock other benefits.

There are a plethora of real life technologies that correspond to THIS idea. Personal Computers and the Internet. Before personal computers, the internet was contained to enormous computers usually located in large Universities and Government buildings, but they still provided access to a vast amount of information. With the advent of Personal Computers, people could write and print documents from home without having to rely on typewriters or hand-writing their papers. When the Internet and Personal Computers came together, the internet exploded. You can find information about just about anything you want online, plus entertainment, pointless diversion, etc. Using the internet and personal computers we can have this argument with people we have never met, never will meet, and would never have met without the internet and personal computers.

That's exactly how inventions work in Victoria II and I can see it being fairly similar in Stellaris.

 

[beckermt]

I guess y'all are missing my point, and I've tried in several ways to express it. Perhaps I'm not good at communicating. Perhaps the community as whole feels "this is the way games have always been, so this is the way they should always be". I don't know for sure. I'm going to leave aside the reason and focus on what we've heard.

Paradox has said they're looking at something more complicated than a simple technology "tree". If we're looking at something like an interconnected "web" of technologies, say with central, vital technologies with a high probability of coming up, and then other technologies spread out across the "web".

So, while I still think theoretical technologies would work, let's step a little bit back along the same lines, and instead of "theoretical technologies" maybe think of "interconnected technologies"?

Let's look at three interrelated (possible) technologies: "High Tensile Materials", "Domed Habitats", and "Advanced Manufacturing". On their own, each technology would have a benefit. "HIgh Tensile Materials" would let you build better armor for your ships and buildings. "Domed Habitats" would let you build settlements on more hostile worlds, like Mars or the Moon in our own solar system. Perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter. "Advanced Manufacturing" would let you build buildings or construction materials (however building things works) faster. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Domed Habitats" would let you settle on still more hostile worlds, like Venus or Titan. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Advanced Manufacturing" would allow you to produce more complicated materials or stronger buildings. "Advanced Manufacturing" plus "Domed Habitats" would allow your domed habitats to expand more rapidly, increasing the population potential of buildings on the world. Finally, all three would allow establishing a quick-growing colony on a highly-hostile world.

Perhaps some technologies in one branch unlock additional benefits of different technologies in the other two branches.

Each one of them individually has benefits, but the three of them interact to unlock other benefits.

There are a plethora of real life technologies that correspond to THIS idea. Personal Computers and the Internet. Before personal computers, the internet was contained to enormous computers usually located in large Universities and Government buildings, but they still provided access to a vast amount of information. With the advent of Personal Computers, people could write and print documents from home without having to rely on typewriters or hand-writing their papers. When the Internet and Personal Computers came together, the internet exploded. You can find information about just about anything you want online, plus entertainment, pointless diversion, etc. Using the internet and personal computers we can have this argument with people we have never met, never will meet, and would never have met without the internet and personal computers.

That is totally different than what you said in the beginning and seems relatively reasonable.

 

[SIEGE-109]

Yes I love Karthos's new idea of tech combinations giving new advantages. I was about to suggest it myself.

 

[Shaktari]

I guess y'all are missing my point, and I've tried in several ways to express it. Perhaps I'm not good at communicating. Perhaps the community as whole feels "this is the way games have always been, so this is the way they should always be". I don't know for sure. I'm going to leave aside the reason and focus on what we've heard.

Paradox has said they're looking at something more complicated than a simple technology "tree". If we're looking at something like an interconnected "web" of technologies, say with central, vital technologies with a high probability of coming up, and then other technologies spread out across the "web".

So, while I still think theoretical technologies would work, let's step a little bit back along the same lines, and instead of "theoretical technologies" maybe think of "interconnected technologies"?

Let's look at three interrelated (possible) technologies: "High Tensile Materials", "Domed Habitats", and "Advanced Manufacturing". On their own, each technology would have a benefit. "HIgh Tensile Materials" would let you build better armor for your ships and buildings. "Domed Habitats" would let you build settlements on more hostile worlds, like Mars or the Moon in our own solar system. Perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter. "Advanced Manufacturing" would let you build buildings or construction materials (however building things works) faster. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Domed Habitats" would let you settle on still more hostile worlds, like Venus or Titan. "High Tensile Materials" plus "Advanced Manufacturing" would allow you to produce more complicated materials or stronger buildings. "Advanced Manufacturing" plus "Domed Habitats" would allow your domed habitats to expand more rapidly, increasing the population potential of buildings on the world. Finally, all three would allow establishing a quick-growing colony on a highly-hostile world.

Perhaps some technologies in one branch unlock additional benefits of different technologies in the other two branches.

Each one of them individually has benefits, but the three of them interact to unlock other benefits.

There are a plethora of real life technologies that correspond to THIS idea. Personal Computers and the Internet. Before personal computers, the internet was contained to enormous computers usually located in large Universities and Government buildings, but they still provided access to a vast amount of information. With the advent of Personal Computers, people could write and print documents from home without having to rely on typewriters or hand-writing their papers. When the Internet and Personal Computers came together, the internet exploded. You can find information about just about anything you want online, plus entertainment, pointless diversion, etc. Using the internet and personal computers we can have this argument with people we have never met, never will meet, and would never have met without the internet and personal computers.

then i have good news for you i am pretty sure that is what they are aiming to do, only as opposed to a web it will be a tech deck, with choices weighted to take into account previous techs you may have already researched, and i am guessing other factors, to prevent you from drawing a tech that you cant use.