"Theoretical" Technologies

[General Karthos]

I was going to post this in with my idea about AI Behavior, but it's different enough to warrant a separate thread, I think.

I would suggest that we be allowed to research technologies that require perquisite technologies that we don't have. We just can't take advantage of any advancements given us until we have the perquisite technologies. IRL, we could build a space elevator (let's pretend we have the money) today, except that we don't have any materials with the required tensile strength.

Michio Kaku designed a lightsaber that requires just a few pieces of technology we don't yet have, but that would seem to be functional once the technology advances sufficiently.

Maybe this is already a thing, given that they're trying to redesign/redefine the way research is done. But if it's not, I think it's worth looking at and considering.

And requiring those perquisite technologies to put your theoretical technologies into effect would provide a strong incentive to pick a particular technology when the cards are provided.... Instead of trying to grope you way in one direction and hoping that once you have the perquisites, you'll luck into the major tech you wanted.

Just my two centicredits.

 

[akatung]

It´s an interesting idea. I didn´t think about it but it could be cool.

 

[SolarGuy]

So, when I find the tech for "Black Hole Generators" (BHG) in the early game, I could research the theory of building such a BHG, before I even have the needs to build one? That would be awesome!

 

[Shaktari]

It's an interesting idea, but what would be the point? for example your space elevator, why am i spending my resources to research the theory, when i can just wait to actually get the tech?

 

[RebelScum88]

I agree with Shaktari, plus you would most likely be better suited to research an advanced tech later due to increases in number/quality of research stations. Maybe a Theoretical Researcher trait could be possible which provides some sort of general research bonus

 

[ParagonExile]

It's an interesting idea, but what would be the point? for example your space elevator, why am i spending my resources to research the theory, when i can just wait to actually get the tech?

Rare technologies are not guaranteed to come up. You could be presented with an ultra-rare end-game tech early on that you would never see, and if you passed up on it you'd be SOL later down the line.

If, for example, in the early game you are presented with "Mind Uploading" OP's suggestion would have that not give its full benefits until you got (for example) "Autonomous Robotics" and "Sapient Artificial Intelligence".

 

[General Karthos]

Rare technologies are not guaranteed to come up. You could be presented with an ultra-rare end-game tech early on that you would never see, and if you passed up on it you'd be SOL later down the line.

If, for example, in the early game you are presented with "Mind Uploading" OP's suggestion would have that not give its full benefits until you got (for example) "Autonomous Robotics" and "Sapient Artificial Intelligence".

Precisely. It was specifically with the thought of rare technologies that I suggest this. Now, I'm not saying that every tech that comes up necessarily be a theoretical tech. In fact, game balance would demand that such choices for research only come up once in a while to make sure that technology continues to advance.

 

[Umbaretz]

And here I thought that it was TK from HOI 3 and was about to post a witty comment about galactic truck management.

 

[Shaktari]

Rare technologies are not guaranteed to come up. You could be presented with an ultra-rare end-game tech early on that you would never see, and if you passed up on it you'd be SOL later down the line. "

It dosn’t work that way, at each tech level you will be offered a series of tech choices for that given level. You won’t be offered a level 10 tech at level 1, you may miss out on a rare level 1 tech if you opt for one of the other choices, but you will never be offered say super black hole bombs, a level 10 ship tech, at level 1.

And again I like the idea, but how would it work? Am I getting the theoretical tech and a normal tech choice? Or is it taking up a normal tech slot? If it does why should I give up tech I know I can use for theoretical tech choice? And if the bonuses are comparable anyways, why is it theoretical tech, instead of just another tech choice?

 

[ParagonExile]

It dosn’t work that way, at each tech level you will be offered a series of tech choices for that given level. You won’t be offered a level 10 tech at level 1, you may miss out on a rare level 1 tech if you opt for one of the other choices, but you will never be offered say super black hole bombs, a level 10 ship tech, at level 1.

We don't know if there are "tech levels", only rarity, with purple evidently being rare.

And again I like the idea, but how would it work? Am I getting the theoretical tech and a normal tech choice? Or is it taking up a normal tech slot? If it does why should I give up tech I know I can use for theoretical tech choice? And if the bonuses are comparable anyways, why is it theoretical tech, instead of just another tech choice?

Techs may never come up again. Getting a tech in a trade deal also. Opens up the possibility of certain races never having the option to use a technology tree.

 

[General Karthos]

Even if there are tech levels, which I am disinclined to believe, I'd think that you might see the occasional tech a level or two below or a level or two above. And I was suggesting that if some techs have perquisites, but you don't have those perquisites, you research it as a "theoretical" technology, and hope you get the perquisite techs somewhere along the line.

 

[stripe7]

As far as a game is concerned what you are talking about is just doing research on Tech C which requires tech A & B to work. You might as well research tech A & B first then do C because it will probably take you less time to do it that way. Tech A and B will take less research points and you probably get a penalty for for skipping ahead, or lose a bonus for researching tech C without already having tech's A & B.

 

[General Karthos]

As far as a game is concerned what you are talking about is just doing research on Tech C which requires tech A & B to work. You might as well research tech A & B first then do C because it will probably take you less time to do it that way. Tech A and B will take less research points and you probably get a penalty for for skipping ahead, or lose a bonus for researching tech C without already having tech's A & B.

Ah, but techs don't necessarily go in order. You already get a random draw of technologies to research. I'm just suggesting that it not necessarily be limited to technologies for which you already have the perquisite techs. So you might have to research C (especially if it's one of those very rare technologies) before you could research A and B. You don't get to choose the order that techs come to you, or even what techs they are.

You can read what we know about it in the dev diary labeled as such.

 

[Shaktari]

Ah, but techs don't necessarily go in order. You already get a random draw of technologies to research. I'm just suggesting that it not necessarily be limited to technologies for which you already have the perquisite techs. So you might have to research C (especially if it's one of those very rare technologies) before you could research A and B. You don't get to choose the order that techs come to you, or even what techs they are.

What is more likely to happen for balance purposes?

A) What you seem to suggest, a completely random tech deck, so no consideration of prerequisites, possible resource requirements, and no consideration for where you are for “tech levels”

Or more likely

B) Every time your choices for tech come up you are given choices that take into account, your resource income, where you are “tech level” wise, and if you have prerequisites or not for other tech

 

[Danarcis]

Isnt this just a backhanded way of giving this game a tech tree?

 

[chrisjwmartin]

perquisite technologies

You mean "prerequisite".

 

[Furutta]

This idea is flawed from inception. It is highly unlikely that there will be a "space elevator" technology, but instead that there will be a "high tensile materials" technology that happens to unlock space elevators. People come up with ideas for how to make x if only I had material y all the time, and that's usually not what games like this use research to represent.

Aside from the conceptual problems, it's mechanically unfun. Why would I want to devote a ton of research points to a tech that won't get me any new toys? Because of the hypothetical in the future? There are already going to be enough short/long term choices when rare tech cards come up, and at least with those choices I'm getting something of commensurate power for the setback I'm taking to short term tech growth.

 

[Daltesh]

It dosn’t work that way, at each tech level you will be offered a series of tech choices for that given level. You won’t be offered a level 10 tech at level 1, you may miss out on a rare level 1 tech if you opt for one of the other choices, but you will never be offered say super black hole bombs, a level 10 ship tech, at level 1.

In the technology DD it was shown that a brand new empire was researching a purple technology (sentient AI) that cost something like 20 times as much research as its other baseline technologies, so there's a very strong chance you're wrong about this.

I think some people are missing the point of this suggestion. When you finish a research the game pulls three tech "cards" from a weighted pool of technologies of which you choose one to research, and the other two are put back into the "deck". Very common technologies are weighted to be drawn a lot, whereas very rare cards will be drawn very rarely, so it's (most likely, depending on how varied the techs are) possible for you to draw the sentient AI card, pass it up, and then never see it again that game. The suggestion simply seems to let you pick to research this picked option instead of putting it back into the "deck" of technologies.

I think it's a bit of an interesting idea, but it would be a lot more intuitive to simply not have locked technologies show up until you can use them, and this would give you a (slightly) better chance to draw rare technologies that you can actually use.

edit: As an aside, I really like the idea that you can pass up a technology and never see it again, since if by the late game every empire had researched all the same technologies it would be far less interesting to me.

 

[General Karthos]

You mean "prerequisite".

I do, but my system was evidently auto-correcting prerequisite as being an incorrect word. I fixed it, so it won't happen again.

 

[General Karthos]

This idea is flawed from inception. It is highly unlikely that there will be a "space elevator" technology, but instead that there will be a "high tensile materials" technology that happens to unlock space elevators. People come up with ideas for how to make x if only I had material y all the time, and that's usually not what games like this use research to represent.

Aside from the conceptual problems, it's mechanically unfun. Why would I want to devote a ton of research points to a tech that won't get me any new toys? Because of the hypothetical in the future? There are already going to be enough short/long term choices when rare tech cards come up, and at least with those choices I'm getting something of commensurate power for the setback I'm taking to short term tech growth.

You can't build a space elevator without the required technologies. So the prerequisite technologies would get you access to the new toy. As for the high tensile materials, what other benefits do they have? Improved ablative armor? A more secure dome habitat for inhospitable planets. It's not like each tech need unlock a single benefit.

I'd still point out that there are a lot of "theoretical technologies" currently on earth. For example, we currently have a working design for a warp drive, but it requires a material that doesn't exist (yet, or may never exist) and a power source far more efficient than any we currently have. A space elevator may be rendered possible by carbon nano-tubes; the only difficult being the expense of building one (and where to locate it. On a tall mountain near the equator is the best bet.)

Fusion power is still a theoretical technology, but France is turning a plant on in 2017. The LHC was just a theory until it was actually built. The same applies to airplanes, rifled bullets, submarines, communications satellites, the moon lander, etc.

Everything is a theory until we have the technology we need to make it.