The Zealand Question, or "How to mostly solve a problem"

[Lord_P]

As everyone knows, the big problem with the 1066< start dates were that de jure Flanders was wrongly a part of HRE, resulting in decades of de jure wars between HRE and France. This has now been fixed, finally.

However, the county of Zealand is still a part of the duchy of Holland, ergo it is de jure HRE. Guess what happened two days in when I started a campaign as France?

 

[Rationalsanity]

Historically, the HRE took Zeeland at some point. The root of the problem is that the HRE can stomp any European realm in a straight fight. Its numbers and ability to project external force are excessive compared to history.
A HRE-France war between the monarchs, rather than dukes fighting over borders, should be s devastating conflict with no obvious winner at the start.

 

[Sahraine]

^Your sig is outdated now Rational..ironically in this thread

lol


"Furthermore, the duchy of Flanders must be removed from the Holy Roman Empire"

oh yah and

THANK ODIN FREAKIN FLANDERS IS FRENCH

this is all

 

[Vaximillian]

Guess what happened two days in when I started a campaign as France?

Guess who died in battle against the Emperor when I started a campaign as the count of Artois? William the freaking Bastard did.
Does the guy ever conquer England at all?

 

[Fitzjacob]

Yeah, I remember being concerned with this when the dev diary revealing the removal of Flanders from Frisia as that still wouldn't solve day one DOW. Still, one war is better than France being drained of levies every ten years for a couple of centuries.

The thing is that there is no way around it without making major changes to warfare. Someone suggested that Frisia should be moved to Francia, but that wouldn't fix anything as the Emperor would still have Holland as a vassal, and Holland would still have a de jure claim that the Emperor could press.

I can think of one change, and that would be to let vassals from different realms declare war on each other without involving their respective lieges, in this case letting van Vlaanderens and Gerulfings fight it out. Now, this probably wouldn't work well at all as a gameplay mechanic and would be open to all sorts of exploitation from a player but it's really the only solution I can think of. So in the end, we probably have to live with it.

 

[Noxatrox]

Perhaps make the count of Zealand a tributary of France. That way, the king of France could choose to ignore the inevitable HRE DOW on it if they wish.

I know it's not historic, but it is better than just making Zealand independent or already a part of the HRE.

 

[Silversweeeper]

I can think of one change, and that would be to let vassals from different realms declare war on each other without involving their respective lieges, in this case letting van Vlaanderens and Gerulfings fight it out. Now, this probably wouldn't work well at all as a gameplay mechanic and would be open to all sorts of exploitation from a player but it's really the only solution I can think of. So in the end, we probably have to live with it.

This would be fun to have and would help simulate large empires potentially losing distant land because the imperial armies were busy elsewhere or couldn't be bothered to show up for one reason or another, provided that the defending liege had the possibility to give the attacker an ultimatum to sign a white peace or face the full might of the defending realm (which the AI probably should agree to if the defender isn't fighting many other wars or otherwise is weakened), that the attacker's liege could get involved if the defending liege gets involved (so that you could bail out your vassal if you would want the war to succeed), and that the defender's liege's vassals (particularly the one that lost land) get upset if he proves unwilling to defend them (so that you can't periodically decide to lose land in order to remove/weaken troublesome vassals without suffering some drawbacks).

 

[Fitzjacob]

This would be fun to have and would help simulate large empires potentially losing distant land because the imperial armies were busy elsewhere or couldn't be bothered to show up for one reason or another, provided that the defending liege had the possibility to give the attacker an ultimatum to sign a white peace or face the full might of the defending realm (which the AI probably should agree to if the defender isn't fighting many other wars or otherwise is weakened), that the attacker's liege could get involved if the defending liege gets involved (so that you could bail out your vassal if you would want the war to succeed), and that the defender's liege's vassals (particularly the one that lost land) get upset if he proves unwilling to defend them (so that you can't periodically decide to lose land in order to remove/weaken troublesome vassals without suffering some drawbacks).

I have to say that I like you're ideas. It would definitely work well with some of the new mechanics from Conclave. Asking your liege to join would make you indebted (owe a favour), your liege refusing (or simply allowing you to lose without lifting a finger) would make the council discontent, piss off the vassals and increase their likelihood to join the independence and oust ruler faction. Which vassal would want a liege that won't protect them?

Hopefully Paradox will consider this!

 

[Dr Gonzo]

This would be fun to have and would help simulate large empires potentially losing distant land because the imperial armies were busy elsewhere or couldn't be bothered to show up for one reason or another, provided that the defending liege had the possibility to give the attacker an ultimatum to sign a white peace or face the full might of the defending realm (which the AI probably should agree to if the defender isn't fighting many other wars or otherwise is weakened), that the attacker's liege could get involved if the defending liege gets involved (so that you could bail out your vassal if you would want the war to succeed), and that the defender's liege's vassals (particularly the one that lost land) get upset if he proves unwilling to defend them (so that you can't periodically decide to lose land in order to remove/weaken troublesome vassals without suffering some drawbacks).

I'd love to see a more flexible system like this. You'd have to have some pretty big opinion maluses for letting your vassals lose de jure land though!

 

[rugger7]

This would be fun to have and would help simulate large empires potentially losing distant land because the imperial armies were busy elsewhere or couldn't be bothered to show up for one reason or another, provided that the defending liege had the possibility to give the attacker an ultimatum to sign a white peace or face the full might of the defending realm (which the AI probably should agree to if the defender isn't fighting many other wars or otherwise is weakened), that the attacker's liege could get involved if the defending liege gets involved (so that you could bail out your vassal if you would want the war to succeed), and that the defender's liege's vassals (particularly the one that lost land) get upset if he proves unwilling to defend them (so that you can't periodically decide to lose land in order to remove/weaken troublesome vassals without suffering some drawbacks).

I had a an idea a while back that vassals could declare war for dejure land without involving the other vassal's liege. E.g. If I'm a vassal Duke of the HRE and a French vassal owns some of my counties, I could declare war on them for my counties without the lieges being involved. There could be a mechanic for the lieges interfering as mentioned, but at least initially it'd be a low level war.