The World according to Kasperus (or yet another map thread)

[Kasperus]

Suggestions...
(long quotes annoy me)

First of all I'm initially only going for namechanges. Checking your maps does not convince me Berwick is that wrong though. Otherwise I like mymaps Dumfries as best alternative.

I'm not going to add a lot of new provinces to just one region as that witll seriously affect balance. I'm unsure if Spain should get extra provinces because of that, and I'm not convinced La Mancha should be split - it is not in other designs circulating through the forum that I used for this map (although the region might be called differently or parts of it might belong to other provinces). As far as I can see even on mymap (well, the last uploaded preview at least which might not be up to date), which has more provinces everywhere, it is one prov.

Same about France and England actually. Avignon seems damn small for an inclusion and if I decide to split Champagne then I won't add it. No other provinces in England if I'm going to split up Wales.

Changes that I would consider in other regions in Europe are btw splitting Ostpreussen, Macedonia, possibly Transylvania and redraw Caucasus/North Iran.

Btw, the river merger will free up about 10 provinces in NW region in Europe (which was full), 7 in SW (which had 4 free ids), and 8 in SE region (which was also full). NE I didn't count but that region had about 20 ids left. Of course if I add provinces within the overlap area then a new province will use up ids in more than 1 region.

 

[Kasperus]

Well, if you have a single river ID for each continent, what about "European River", "North American River", etc. ?

Merging per continent isn't very practical actually, I rather merge them per region and then generic river works better.

 

[unmerged(37697)]

Merging per continent isn't very practical actually, I rather merge them per region and then generic river works better.

Ah, righto. I wasn't aware you did it by region, so that's fair enough.

Oh, and go with Dumfries, then.

I think of all the changes myself and others have suggested, Champagne is one which I feel quite strongly about. It's a large province in a strategically important area of Europe which often gets captured, and thus France loses a vast chunk of it's Rhine border. I think Reims and Troyes would be a good idea.

Wales needs to be split. Simple as that. It's unfair to represent that area with a single province.

Regarding Prussia; that's a good idea. It's an important area in terms of Baltic, Prussian and Polish border changes, and I would certainly like to see that area revised.

Fair enough about Avignon, but a channel province (either the Channel Islands themselves or perhaps the Ise of Wight if you wish to be a little different to MyMAP) would be a nice plus if you have an ID left after your more priority amendments

Finally, if you are able to free up 20+ provinces in Europe through merging rivers, I can see no problem with a revised Scotland and south-eastern England; and as mentioned above, Champagne.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Ah, righto. I wasn't aware you did it by region, so that's fair enough.

Oh, and go with Dumfries, then.

I think of all the changes myself and others have suggested, Champagne is one which I feel quite strongly about. It's a large province in a strategically important area of Europe which often gets captured, and thus France loses a vast chunk of it's Rhine border. I think Reims and Troyes would be a good idea.

The only argument I heard about adding it here and in MyMap was that “Champagne is too big and important”, while there is absolutely no any historical or gameplay reason to add it.

 

[unmerged(51378)]

The only argument I heard about adding it here and in MyMap was that “Champagne is too big and important”, while there is absolutely no any historical or gameplay reason to add it.

A province being important is the absolutely strongest argument in splitting it...

 

[unmerged(37697)]

A province being important is the absolutely strongest argument in splitting it...

Exactly!!!

 

[Herr Doctor]

A province being important is the absolutely strongest argument in splitting it...

Well, could you say that Ile-de-France, Rome (Patrimony), Milan, Veneto, Luxemburg are the less important? So why not to split them with a fantasy border? I really do not see any logic.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Exactly!!!

So, lets create possibility for some crazy situation to appear when these “halves” of Champagne will be owned by different states.

 

[unmerged(51378)]

So, lets create possibility for some crazy situation to appear when these “halves” of Champagne will be owned by different states.

Oh?! Reims is owned by someone and Troyes by someone?! Off course we can't allow such a ridiciolous thing to happen! Never that someone would accept only Reims, but rather rushing to their doom in order to get Troyes...

 

[Herr Doctor]

You see its the 15th-18th centuries history, when the legitimacy was the main reason to claim lands and to start wars. It is far away from the times when the borders were drawn by imperialistic states (starting from Napoleon). It could be possible only in your personal fantasy history.

 

[unmerged(51378)]

You see its the 15th-18th centuries history, when the legitimacy was the main reason to claim lands and to start wars. It is far away from the times when the borders were drawn by imperialistic states (starting from Napoleon). It could be possible only in your personal fantasy history.

If one wanted something, they had come up with something. 'Ah, I don't have a legitime ingame CB, so no off course I can't start a war even though I'm ten times more mighty and they are weak!'

 

[Kasperus]

Oh?! Reims is owned by someone and Troyes by someone?! Off course we can't allow such a ridiciolous thing to happen! Never that someone would accept only Reims, but rather rushing to their doom in order to get Troyes...

Integrity of historical international borders have been always important to me. Champagne was never divided during the era of the game so Herr Doctor raises a valid point really.
Btw, Champagne (and also Dauphine from which I might take Avignon) count for both the NW and SW European region so additions here cost 2 ids per province.

 

[unmerged(37697)]

Integrity of historical international borders have been always important to me. Champagne was never divided during the era of the game so Herr Doctor raises a valid point really.
Btw, Champagne (and also Dauphine from which I might take Avignon) count for both the NW and SW European region so additions here cost 2 ids per province.

Well, going by your argument (which is a valid one, I suppose) about Champagne, Avignon should be put in, as for more or less the entire game period it was a Papal enclave and France had nothing to do with it.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Well, going by your argument (which is a valid one, I suppose) about Champagne, Avignon should be put in, as for more or less the entire game period it was a Papal enclave and France had nothing to do with it.

Indeed, I could agree Venaissin to be in game. The only reason I disagreed with MKJ about it in MyMap was the fact that there are a lot of other more important historical provinces, which could be added.

 

[Kasperus]

Ah, righto. I wasn't aware you did it by region, so that's fair enough.

Oh, and go with Dumfries, then.

Dumfries it shall be then.

Wales needs to be split. Simple as that. It's unfair to represent that area with a single province.

Then it will be the only change in British islands. Isn't a west-east split more practical here btw?

Regarding Prussia; that's a good idea. It's an important area in terms of Baltic, Prussian and Polish border changes, and I would certainly like to see that area revised.

I'd intend to split it in Masuria and Prussia. Alternative would be Prussia and Memel (alike on mymap) but then Memel would be totally unclickable (my Europe is smaller than it is on mymap)

Fair enough about Avignon, but a channel province (either the Channel Islands themselves or perhaps the Ise of Wight if you wish to be a little different to MyMAP) would be a nice plus if you have an ID left after your more priority amendments

To whom would channel islands belong then? Since neither France nor England are supposed to benefit from it balancewise...

Finally, if you are able to free up 20+ provinces in Europe through merging rivers, I can see no problem with a revised Scotland and south-eastern England; and as mentioned above, Champagne.

First of all, it is not 20+ if provinces count for more than 1 region.
Second, balance is rather important to me and I'm not willing to destroy it just for the sake of putting more provinces in.
Third, keep in mind that what might work on mymap with regard to additions of small provinces, might not work on this map as the projection I use (=the vanilla one) makes the European area actually much smaller. THe lowlands, Italy and Germany are barely playable when it comes to clicking and visibility of icons. I don't need to make it worse.
And finally, this map is nowadays mostly used by the multiplayer community, which has its own scenarios. I do not wish to make any radical changes to the map that might force them to revise all their scenarios. Also, actually the next 2 weeks I'll try to get feedback from mp'ers about the proposed changes and if these are opposed there then I won't include them. Changes to provincenames and the merger of rivers are excluded from that consideration since they should not affect gameplay.

 

[Herr Doctor]

I'd intend to split it in Masuria and Prussia. Alternative would be Prussia and Memel (alike on mymap) but then Memel would be totally unclickable (my Europe is smaller than it is on mymap)

You could enlarge it to the size of historical ethnic region of “Lithuania Minor” (in MyMap it is mostly only Memeland), which is about 1/3 of East Prussia. As you know from MyMap experience, Masuria is not a very good idea.

 

[Kasperus]

You could enlarge it to the size of historical ethnic region of “Lithuania Minor” (in MyMap it is mostly only Memeland), which is about 1/3 of East Prussia. As you know from MyMap experience, Masuria is not a very good idea.

Which region exactly would that be? And I do not follow mymap development that frequently to know all the reasons about the changes, so actually I missed the reasons for not including (removal of?) Masuria... Care to enlighten me what didn't work about it? Province ending as part of Poland/Lithuania far too often or somesuch?

 

[unmerged(37697)]

Dumfries it shall be then.
To whom would channel islands belong then? Since neither France nor England are supposed to benefit from it balancewise.

They would (at game-start, at least) belong to England, as they were the last remnant of the Duchy of Normandy in English hands.

The Islands were annexed to the Duchy of Normandy in 933. In 1066 the Duke William the Conqueror invaded and conquered England, becoming the English monarch. Since 1204, the loss of the rest of the monarch's lands in mainland Normandy has meant that the Channel Islands have been governed as separate possessions of the Crown.

However, being part of the Duchy means that France should have a core on them. England should lose their core on the islands when/if they lose their cores on the rest of Normandy & Guyenne.

I'm happy with Dumfries then, but Berwick should definitely be added as a north-eastern border province...

 

[Herr Doctor]

Which region exactly would that be? And I do not follow mymap development that frequently to know all the reasons about the changes, so actually I missed the reasons for not including (removal of?) Masuria... Care to enlighten me what didn't work about it? Province ending as part of Poland/Lithuania far too often or somesuch?

Well, Masuria was usually taken by Poland prior to anything in Prussia (without any core on it naturally). So, the border here was looking very odd all the time.

Lithuania Minor:
http://www.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/images/kreise/nordostpreussen.gif
http://www.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/images/kleinlitauen2.jpg
http://www.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.jpg
German name is Kleinlitauen.

 

[Tem_Probe]

I've encountered a strange issue when coding a scenario using WATK 3.1 + WATK 3.1 fixed. Nura, province in Khazakstan area(id 1536) does not appear on the map visually, but when searched, seems to appear right where the province of Cetiru(516) appears. Oddly enough, if including it in the savefile causes no issue since it is a valid province, it does not appear on the map, making this an odd case of "offmap province".