Please stop any sort of "my nation is better than yours" nationalistic talk, or I will have to close thus thread.
The word "westernize"
- Thread starter kaeru
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
- Status
Through the eyes of a European Christian priest names Paul Alvarus. He writes:
Around the year 800, the middle East had thirteen cities with populations of over fifty thousand, while Europa had only one - Rome...
In the face of this success, there came both admiration and bitterness from Europe. Christians love to read the poems and romance of the Arabs. They study Arab theologians and philosophers, not refute them but to form a correct and elegant Arabic. Where is the layman who now reads the Latin commentaries on the Holy Scriptures, or who studies the Gospels, prophets or apostles? Alas! All the talented young Christians read and study with enthusiasm the Arab books.....
The Christians who were fascinated by Arab/Muslim culture were soon dubbed by their more conservative co-religionists as Mozarab - a term that literally meant "Arab wannabe"....
Look at what you just wrote. You're talking there about the year 800, about 600 years before this game starts. A lot of what you're talking about falls outside the scope of this game. If you go play Crusader Kings, by contrast, the Muslim world is much more advanced than Christian Europe. In fact, Muslim are a little more advanced than Christians in this game; it just doesn't last all that long. But the point is, the things you're talking about fall either outside the game's timeframe, or very early in it, making them not very relevant to the EU3 concept of westernization.
the problem is that in this game you can take down any other nation as a euro one too easily. europeans couldnt do that till the mid to late 1800's, and even the natives of america were stronger, but succumbed to disease
What do you mean by the American natives were stronger? In what ways?
I believe he's referring to the fact that some of the Native Americans remained independant beyond the game's time frame, which is basically impossible given the game's mechanics.
Hopefully EU4 will have a non-eurocentric tech system. I think a few modders have tried something like that.
Most of those were in such isolated places (i.e. the Great Plains) that European had simply not gotten there in force yet. Also "independent", in terms of EU3, is debatable... most of the cases you're referring to here are tribes that are not represented as nations in the game. The only tribe represented in the game that I can recall still being an actively organized, somewhat self-governing group by the end of the game's time frame, would be the Cherokee. And they had accepted the authority of the United States over them, so independence is arguable there, too.
The reason it's 'Westernisation' is because the west is where a lot of the sharing of ideas happened during the Renaissance. It wasn't because the Europeans just all had a knack for inventing things, it was because that's just where innovative thinkers emerged due to the cultural climate (i.e. rediscovering classical knowledge and finally consolidating after the dark ages and escaping Christian censorship). The east/middle east just didn't have something to spark its technological development in that same way at that point in time. Obviously pre-EU3 the Muslim world were the innovators, and well into pre-BC times, the Chinese with Confucian philosophy and the like.
It's not racism or anything; it's historical, but inconvenient because the same thing could have happened elsewhere had events panned out differently.
It's not racism or anything; it's historical, but inconvenient because the same thing could have happened elsewhere had events panned out differently.
I guess the OP simply wanted to ask what does "west" from "westernization" mean in the term of EU3. West as entire Occident, or west as Western Europe? Or westernization generally means learning the technologies of geographical western civilizations from player's country (f.e. Western-Eastern, Muslim-Indian, Indian-Chinese)?
I already give everyone 100% tech rate because it's literally bullshit portugal would be able to steamroll ming, just because they have superior technology according to game mechanics.
At a Japanese community this problem has been discussed for a long time. Which is the actual meaning of the word "westernize" in this game?
(1) to be the West style
(2) to be the West European style
I would like to hear various comments. Especially developers' opinions are welcome.
Since the 'Western culture' we know today only really formed after the core time frame of the game, 'westernization' refers to Western European technology.
I guess the confusion comes from the fact that during the Meji restoration (which happened outside of EUIII's time frame) the idea in Japan was to leave the other 'backwards' Asian countries (China, Korea) behind and become one of the advanced 'Western' countries like the USA and European powers.
So at that time, 'Western' included the USA (you could argue that the Americas were 'westernized' by European colonizers), but during the game's time frame, 'Western' refers to the Western European countries.
and so on and so forth back to Mesopotamia xDwrong, most came from the persians
Well actualy it is because AI dumbness... and the hordes. before hordes, no one could easily beat ottomans. And those that would beat them anyway, you could count on your fingers of right hand(Spain, France, England, Russia, Austria).
At a Japanese community this problem has been discussed for a long time. Which is the actual meaning of the word "westernize" in this game?
(1) to be the West style
(2) to be the West European style
I would like to hear various comments. Especially developers' opinions are welcome.
I am going to try to answer your question without getting into a debate on which culture is most responsible for technological advancement. In the game "westernize" means to move to a category of technology that has a reduced penalty for technological advances. That is pretty much all it really means as far as the game goes. If you are looking for deeper truth on the term "westernize" EU3 is not the place to find it.
It has been awhile since I obtained my history degree and about as long since I used it but I seem to recall that even historians are not united on what "westernize" means. At best it it means to adopt the organizational style and goals/ideals common in western Europe post Renaissance (roughly) to the colonial period (some would argue even to today). I doubt you could find a line where a culture becomes "westernized" as there was a great deal of variation on how and if cultures approached it. Of course there are always going to be people who debate whether it was a good or bad thing both in regards to ethics and effectiveness. Only a fanatic could say it was all good or all bad in real life but there is little doubt that it is desirable in EU3.
I would also like to give props to the Life of Brian paraphrase...
This is simply untrue especially when you look at things like the Battle of Plassey where the British were outnumbered 10:1 and won a decisive victory because of their technology and tactics.
Even before the 1700s, you have Dutch and Portuguese fleets asserting their dominance over the Asian spice trade and small expeditionary forces subduing strategic forts and cities from much larger local powers.
I replied at a message of Chronicler, if you had take a good look. I know what the timeframe of eu3 (1399 to 1820) is. Even then my reply is relevant. This was the way in the world, at least until the end of the 15th century. The biggest cities were still in the hands of Arabs and Muslims. If you ever had played with Granada, you would have seen that Granada is the biggest city on Iberia. In the top 10 cities of the world of 1500 there was just one West European city (paris) while there were three (cairo, tabriz, constantinople) on the Arab/Muslim region. Christian/European scholars were still learning Arabic to read their books and to learn their way of doing things. With the loss of Granada, the destruction brought by the Mongols/Timurids and the begin of new trade routes (around Africa) started the decline of the Arab/Muslim world. While Western Europe was largely not affected by the hordes, it found new lands and trade routes and due to internal competition new ideas and innovations started to pop up.
- Status