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kaeru

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At a Japanese community this problem has been discussed for a long time. Which is the actual meaning of the word "westernize" in this game?

(1) to be the West style
(2) to be the West European style

I would like to hear various comments. Especially developers' opinions are welcome.:p
 

ind2bc

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I think that they use more of a Japanese style of westernizing as you get the people resisting westernization but that can be seen almost everywhere that people westernize so i don't know exactly what you'd call it as the government is pressing things on the population that it doesn't necessarily want like in Russia where people were forced to shave their beards
 

mejla

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At a Japanese community this problem has been discussed for a long time. Which is the actual meaning of the word "westernize" in this game?

(1) to be the West style
(2) to be the West European style

I would like to hear various comments. Especially developers' opinions are welcome.:p

I don't quite tell the difference between these two options...
I understand for some ppl the "west" in it brings minor inconvenience :) but you can always call it "modernization" I guess.
 

afb

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Westernizing in the game refers to both.

If we only look at Europe and Asia, tech groups follow the east-west progression like this: western-eastern-muslim-indian-chinese, with the westernmost being the most efficient. Each time you westernize, you move one or two tech groups up/west. Thus westernizing is a move to a more western style, and ultimately to a western european style.

Industrialize would not make sense, as some countries like Novgorod or Ottomans can easily westernize as early as the 15th century.

Modernize is better, but it still connotes industrialization. The whole game mechanic is somewhat eurocentric, but at least the game term matches the mechanic.
 

Junuxx

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I think it's mostly the (partial) adoption of a European worldview, the notion of technological progress and exploration as a driving force in society. Also some government innovations.
On the other hand, I don't think it's intended to portray the full adoption of European religion, customs, language etc.
 

ZomgK3tchup

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I would have chosen the word modernize or industrialized. It sounds better.
Both would suggest that a country is becoming like a contemporary nation. No country except maybe the UK was modern nor industrialized by 1820.

But only after Western Europe had modernized after Arab example ;)
Western Europeans borrowed a lot from the Arabs and Chinese, but this game is somewhat past that timeframe.

Westernization, in Paradox games, refers to the process at which a country adapts Western European culture and technology. The is more clear-cut in Victoria where you can't industrialize or research advanced technology (i.e. combustion engines and machine guns) without first westernizing.

If it were the Far East that developed these technologies and went on to colonize most of the world, we'd call the process easternization instead. Many people call the term Euro-centric, but that's primarily because European states become the most advanced and powerful states in the world during this time.

That said, Europe's supremacy didn't really start until the 1700s, and they didn't really how great they were until Britain beat China in the Opium Wars, so you could argue that the word usage is anachronistic.
 

Emperor Hans

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Europe didn't really steal much from the arabs....

Of what are you referring?
Once a man came on a horse, he said.
In 5 centuries, when you're empire is screwed, at dawn, look to the east.

Vandals took Rome and the empire fell apart, they all listened to those wise words and looked at arab example.
Mind you that not only "medicine, chemistry, algebra, pumps and irrigation technology, windmills, astronomy"
but about any science is either copied/inspired or preserved by the middle east.
Greek literature and science was banned because the church deemed it "Not christian",for example. Well we know better nowadays.
 

Sickness_

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Oh you know, medicine, chemistry, algebra, pumps and irrigation technology, windmills and astronomy.
Except for medicine, chemistry, algebra, pumps and irrigation technology, windmills and astronomy, what have the Arabs ever done for us?!
 

Chronicler

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Oh you know, medicine, chemistry, algebra, pumps and irrigation technology, windmills, astronomy, minor things like that.

Yes, I know Copernicus was arabian that's true, but the rest? Not really no =P.
 

DanubianCossak

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This game is not about historical or even today's unfairness of attitudes that various people have, and its not about how people feel from today's point of view, so lets try not to take this personally or make a issue where there is none.

This game is focused primarily on the West - which means western Europe in this case, while the rest of the world is painted mostly through their prism.

As Eurocentric and unfair as it is, again, it is what it is, it shows the world seen from the eyes of the "west" from 1399. to 19th century (or whatever).

People tend to start these endless debates over how sophisticated / developed / old other parts of the world are, but really, we should not be doing that. There are no "civilized" and "uncivilized" countries or parts of world, humans are humans wherever they live, and one thing we all have in common is the need to leave parts of ourselves to the future generations in various forms and shapes, and thats what we call culture - be it written in poems, told as stories around fire or painted in caves. You should not be comparing what cannot be compared, as culture of western Europe is as valuable as cultures of Native Americans, people's of India, China, Arabia and other places.

As for EU3 and "westernization", again you have to put it in context and thats all to it.
 

PiriReis

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Europe didn't really steal much from the arabs....

Of what are you referring?

Through the eyes of a European Christian priest names Paul Alvarus. He writes:

Around the year 800, the middle East had thirteen cities with populations of over fifty thousand, while Europa had only one - Rome...
In the face of this success, there came both admiration and bitterness from Europe. Christians love to read the poems and romance of the Arabs. They study Arab theologians and philosophers, not refute them but to form a correct and elegant Arabic. Where is the layman who now reads the Latin commentaries on the Holy Scriptures, or who studies the Gospels, prophets or apostles? Alas! All the talented young Christians read and study with enthusiasm the Arab books.....

The Christians who were fascinated by Arab/Muslim culture were soon dubbed by their more conservative co-religionists as Mozarab - a term that literally meant "Arab wannabe".... :rolleyes:

Until the Mongols came devastating everything in 13th century, this was the way in the world. From 1600 the Europeans had the edge.

Most of that knowledge came from the greeks, after the fall of the roman empire it went to arabia and later back to europe.

The works of the likes of Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Rush (averroes), Al-Kindi and Ibn Sina (avicenna) were that is, to say the least pioneers in their respectable fields. However the works of the Greeks were influential and a source of inspiration for them.
 
Last edited:

Knut Posse

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I think that the term westernize does only reference technological and scientific process and though in terms of military strength and wealth Western Europe overtook China only after the timeframe there are several strands of technology and science which started to progress at a more rapid pace in the west than in the east. For example, it has been argued that the great gunpowder armies that unified Japan into the Tokugawa shogunate was a European influence and there must have been a reason that European influence was strictly controlled in Japan. Chinese calendar and astronomy was influenced by Jesuits, especially Johann Adam Schall in the early 17th century. Join-stock companies and banks come to mind as well. And of course European conquests in the east started in the 17th century as well and inside the time frame of EUIII Europeans had established themselves in India as well as Indonesia. This is not to claim any sort of superiority, but there were many signs of European influence making a difference in technology and science in Asia and Africa.

On the other subject, the influence of the islamic world on Europe was huge and it is not really a disputable question. They passed arithmetic and arabic numbers to the west, which were originally imported by Fibonacci and without which the development of economics would have been next to impssible. Most inventions from China and India were transferred by the islamic world, among these paper, compass and gunpowder. With the collapse of Western Roman empire most knowledge and thought of the ancients were lost in western Europe, not necessarily because of christian prejudice, but simply because the institutions that took care of that tradition disappeared and the whole literary culture of the Roman empire with it. For example Galenos or ancient medicine in general was known only as fragments and traditional remedies, at times gathered by a learned monk or scholar(same thing really) into a compilation, but without any structure or theoretical understanding. It was only through the golden age of islamic culture 10th to 12th century, which coincided with the scholastic revival of the high middle ages, which enabled the west to reacquire greek and roman knowledge, among these the corpus of Aristotle, Platon, the Hippocratic Corpus and Galenos, which in time led to the development of the empirical method and the scientific method as the centuries passed. The importance of thinkers like Ibn Rushd(Averroes) and Ibn Sina(Avicenna) should not be underestimated, they not only worked to preserve greek philosophy and learning, but also developed it and made it their own and through their annotations made possible the achievements of Aquinas, Albert the Great, Duns Scotus and Occam. Newton once said that he stood on the shoulders of giants. If you go down the tower of bodies, at one point you will find only islamic and jewish scholars there. So dissing the arabs ain't wise. They're solid.
 

ind2bc

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Westernizing in the game refers to both.

If we only look at Europe and Asia, tech groups follow the east-west progression like this: western-eastern-muslim-indian-chinese, with the westernmost being the most efficient. Each time you westernize, you move one or two tech groups up/west. Thus westernizing is a move to a more western style, and ultimately to a western european style.

Industrialize would not make sense, as some countries like Novgorod or Ottomans can easily westernize as early as the 15th century.

Modernize is better, but it still connotes industrialization. The whole game mechanic is somewhat eurocentric, but at least the game term matches the mechanic.

However Japan went from the East to the West straightforward they never had any Islamic countries send advisers in to help nor did they model their country off them and @sickness_ they were some of the first to use gunpowder as a weapon
 
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