The Wiz Doctrine

[BlackUmbrellas]

Basically, nobody can convince me that the best punishment for making bad choices is to fight a doomstack.

If I make an Obviously Terrible Decision, I expect a Bad End along the lines of an inverse of "Embrace the Worm" ending of the Horizon Signal- something catastrophic with actual consequences for your entire species/civilization. Maybe even something that means you can't actually "finish" the game anymore, at least not without making further sacrifices or changes.

 

[Xoatl]

Basically, nobody can convince me that the best punishment for making bad choices is to fight a doomstack.

If I make an Obviously Terrible Decision, I expect a Bad End along the lines of an inverse of "Embrace the Worm" ending of the Horizon Signal- something catastrophic with actual consequences for your entire species/civilization. Maybe even something that means you can't actually "finish" the game anymore, at least not without making further sacrifices or changes.

You still didn't address the point that ending the cycle of birth and death inherently implies making your POPs immortal.

 

[Ikael]

I agree with Wiz. We need more distinct playstyles, both in Ethos and Traits as well. But since we're talking about ethos here:

- Militarists: Unique super-weapons and ship sizes. Hefty military manteinance discounts
- Xenophiles: Add some type of trans-galactic migration end game crisis / victory unique to their ethos. Open portals to another galaxy and invite new friends from beyond! Add some habitability / hospitability and migration bonuses as well in order to give them something outside federations
- Pacifists: Unique "citadel" type of super structure, unique event-chain for an "eternal peace of the federation" type of victory. Extra tiles for habitats and planets for enhanced tall gameplay, perhaps?
- Xenophobes: Unique Halo-esque doomsday device that will purge the galaxy from every species but your own as a unique type of victory (become the endgame crisis you always wanted to defeat!) complete with its own chain of events. Give them insane bonuses to every purge output type so you can sustain an entire economy based in the consumption of other lesser species
- Libertarian: Stronger planetary edicts and policies, more benefit from happy factions. Make libertarians all about inner participative politics.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

You still didn't address the point that ending the cycle of birth and death inherently implies making your POPs immortal.

I ignored it because it was silly.

The End Of The Cycle is only one of the many things you can encounter in the Shroud, so it's not exactly the inevitable end-point of the Psionics Ascension.

Furthermore, there are plenty of ways to take "the end of the cycle of birth and death" that don't involve immortality. Including "you're all going to die out and go extinct, forever, so that death ends once and for all among your kind".

Again: all evidence of what we've been shown indicates that Psionic Ascendancy is about leader enhancement, with only a single mention of immortality (that being your psychic avatar empire leader). Add to this Wiz's clear statement about wanting each Ethos to have distinct mechanics, and we have very little reason to assume POP immortality is mandatorily part of all Ascension Path.

 

[Madzai]

I agree with Wiz. We need more distinct playstyles, both in Ethos and Traits as well. But since we're talking about ethos here:

Wiz doesn't want more unique paths (ok, he probably do want, but it isn't 1st priority), he want to make each one more distinctive. Or i am wrong?

 

[Me_]

Basically, nobody can convince me that the best punishment for making bad choices is to fight a doomstack.

If I make an Obviously Terrible Decision, I expect a Bad End along the lines of an inverse of "Embrace the Worm" ending of the Horizon Signal- something catastrophic with actual consequences for your entire species/civilization. Maybe even something that means you can't actually "finish" the game anymore, at least not without making further sacrifices or changes.

On that we can agree, but it's quite different from the point first made. Changing your pop's traits, changing your government, your ethos or ethos attraction. Spawning/destroying planets/systems, adding planetary and country modifiers, affecting diplomacy, there are tons of possibilities. Meanwhile, neutering is the worst of all.

 

[Xoatl]

I ignored it because it was silly.

The End Of The Cycle is only one of the many things you can encounter in the Shroud, so it's not exactly the inevitable end-point of the Psionics Ascension.

Furthermore, there are plenty of ways to take "the end of the cycle of birth and death" that don't involve immortality. Including "you're all going to die out and go extinct, forever, so that death ends once and for all among your kind".

Again: all evidence of what we've been shown indicates that Psionic Ascendancy is about leader enhancement, with only a single mention of immortality (that being your psychic avatar empire leader). Add to this Wiz's clear statement about wanting each Ethos to have distinct mechanics, and we have very little reason to assume POP immortality is mandatorily part of all Ascension Path.

You asked me why I thought POP immortality was a thing and I answered it, now you think it is silly. I'd be better off discussing Stellaris with a rock. And yeah, one AP changes all your POPs to synths, being friendly with the machine conciousness, get better output, other bonuses and immortality. Psi gives you different bonuses, including immortality, but also brings entities from the shroud into the galaxy. They are different enough.

Also, why in the world would ending the cycle of birth and death translate to death for everybody? Why even phrase it that way if thats the case, why not say, "Your species will go extinct".

 

[The Founder]

Xenophile at the very least needs some kind of pop migration-swap mechanic; right now, once a planet fills up, it's done. You can still resettle of course but that only works for ethos combinations that allow it.

I agree the migration mechanic needs some work.

I think you are talking about the Happiness bonus. If I read the Dev Diaries right, the aliens no longer need to be on the same planet for that to work.
Just having aliens in your Empire (with equal rights) should make the Xenophile Action Comitee happy. Wich in turn makes a lot of your pops happy (Faction happiness = Pop base happiness).
There is the effect of Xenos on Local Ethos atraction. But we will ahve to see how much that matters.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

being friendly with the machine conciousness

Nothing has indicated that. We can assume that your Synths will be immune to radicalization, but nothing we've been shown or told indicates you get to be buddies with the AI Rebellion.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Psi gives you different bonuses, including immortality,

Immortality for POPs would be identical to immortality for synths, hence why I believe it wont happen.

Also, why in the world would ending the cycle of birth and death translate to death for everybody? Why even phrase it that way if thats the case, why not say, "Your species will go extinct".

Because that's the exact sort of thing manipulative spirits do? "Jerkass Genie" is a trope for a reason- playing on words is a common way of hiding intentions.

 

[Xoatl]

We can assume that your Synths will be immune to radicalization

Hah, we can go around in circles forever. Synths still get ethos and are apparently sentient so they can still rebel and join factions and become radicalized. It's a far better assumption that a pure synth empire will be neutral or friendly with the AI consciousness once it comes around. Considering it has been requested far more than making synths obedient members of the empire.

Immortality for POPs would be identical to immortality for synths, hence why I believe it wont happen.

Because that's the exact sort of thing manipulative spirits do? "Jerkass Genie" is a trope for a reason- playing on words is a common way of hiding intentions.

I think both paths leading to immortality makes sense and I agree it's jerkass genie shit but we disagree on what that means.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Hah, we can go around in circles forever. Synths still get ethos and are apparently sentient so they can still rebel and join factions and become radicalized. It's a far better assumption that a pure synth empire will be neutral or friendly with the AI consciousness once it comes around. Considering it has been requested far more than making synths obedient members of the empire.

You may be misunderstanding me. When I say "immune to radicalization", I mean specifically by the AI Rebellion.

I may very well be wrong about that, but considering that there is, AFAIK, no way to prevent Synths from being radicalized once the AI Rebellion Crisis triggers, it would mean the eventual depopulation of your entire empire.

The easiest way to prevent that and still have the Crisis be A Thing the player has to worry about and deal with would be to make Synths created through Ascension immune to radicalization by the AI Rebellion. Neutrality or even being allied seems incredibly unlikely to me, mostly out of a game balance direction.

 

[Xoatl]

You may be misunderstanding me. When I say "immune to radicalization", I mean specifically by the AI Rebellion.

I may very well be wrong about that, but considering that there is, AFAIK, no way to prevent Synths from being radicalized once the AI Rebellion Crisis triggers, it would mean the eventual depopulation of your entire empire.

The easiest way to prevent that and still have the Crisis be A Thing the player has to worry about and deal with would be to make Synths created through Ascension immune to radicalization by the AI Rebellion. Neutrality or even being allied seems incredibly unlikely to me, mostly out of a game balance direction.

Perhaps from a game balance direction, especially if every materialist empire will for sure go for synth evolution. But in terms of unique features, a pure synth empire would be able to communicate to the AI rebellion and point out the simple fact that their mission statement, "Kill all meatbags". Doesn't apply to them because they no longer have meat bags.

Going back to becoming the end-game crisis. If you can tag-team or even become absorbed into the AI conciousness and play as it you can help make the galaxy a synth only zone. Instead of what happens now where the AI is eventually crippled and any expansion reversed and eventually wiped off the map never to return again.

 

[Incompetent]

Mutually exclusive endgame paths and some actual speculative-fiction game-changers (rather than just conventional empire-building with a thin sci-fi veneer) are things Stellaris has desperately needed since it was first released. Tying some of them to ethics is only logical: ethics in Stellaris are basically a formal declaration of your playstyle, analogous to writing 'Lawful Evil' on your character sheet in Dungeons and Dragons. If you don't actually play the role you've set yourself, you're bound to lose out on something.

Even then, you're not locked into one Ascension path when you start the game. You have three empire ethics (unless this is changing?), so at least three different natural paths to choose from, and you can also shift your empire's ethics during the game (it may not be easy, but it will be possible).

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Going back to becoming the end-game crisis. If you can tag-team or even become absorbed into the AI conciousness and play as it you can help make the galaxy a synth only zone. Instead of what happens now where the AI is eventually crippled and any expansion reversed and eventually whipped off the map never to return again.

While I will admit it's possible the devs intend something like this, I've yet to see any actual indication of such- it's pure speculation, and I don't ascribe to it.

 

[henzington]

I doubt you will get an option to join the AI end game crisis. The whole point of going full robot is maintain your consciousness in a better container and not to merge to destroy yourself.

 

[TerrBear]

Basically, nobody can convince me that the best punishment for making bad choices is to fight a doomstack.

If I make an Obviously Terrible Decision, I expect a Bad End along the lines of an inverse of "Embrace the Worm" ending of the Horizon Signal- something catastrophic with actual consequences for your entire species/civilization. Maybe even something that means you can't actually "finish" the game anymore, at least not without making further sacrifices or changes.

Its poor game design to put fail states so late in the game without it obviously stating its a fail state - entirely defeating the point of it.
Can you imagine the rage on this forum from people killing their ironman games by making a choice which only leads to a fail game outcome?
While to a point i agree that just another doomstack isn't exactly interesting, so long as it has its own mechanics/diplomacy/tech/strategy at least it adds something to the game, a long winded game over does not.

The biggest issue with your idea is that it is a one trick pony, you pick the bad choice for a laugh - see the game over - and then never pick it again.

EDIT: most importantly in a strategy game you need to be able to overcome problems, if it leads to your race being neutered but you had some kind of chance to overcome it such as a really high cost tech or to sacrifice enough alien pops to the -notCHAOS- gods to avoid it then it's fine as it leaves you with choices gameplay wise.

 

[Madzai]

Its poor game design to put fail states so late in the game without it obviously stating its a fail state - entirely defeating the point of it.
Can you imagine the rage on this forum from people killing their ironman games by making a choice which only leads to a fail game outcome?
While to a point i agree that just another doomstack isn't exactly interesting, so long as it has its own mechanics/diplomacy/tech/strategy at least it adds something to the game, a long winded game over does not.

I agree. Horizon Signal event chain comes to mind. Its "negative" outcome hints about approach to this kind of events.

 

[monsterfurby]

I made a personal mod that tripled the attributes of each ethos. Definitely interesting. Fanatic xenophobes had 90% border extrusion and this changed gameplay entirely. Ultimately though it wasnt balanced but I'm optimistic that Wiz is cooking up summin good

It seems like massively increasing/decreasing certain numbers has the effect of making for extremely interesting, even fun, albeit not necessarily balanced results. Your findings sound very much like my results after lowering weapon damage by factor 12.5.

Maybe they just need to take larger steps when working out modifiers

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Its poor game design to put fail states so late in the game without it obviously stating its a fail state - entirely defeating the point of it.

The "End Of The Cycle" option- which I will remind you is one of many available- is clearly telegraphed as a Bad Idea, though. Complete with a tooltip saying "DO NOT DO THIS" and benefits that are the very definition of "too good to be true". If that's not advertising that it'll Do Something Bad, I dunno what does. A fail state for that (or something close to one, like the extinction of your entire founding species) seems entirely fair for taking that bait.

Did none of you people ever grow up reading Choose Your Own Adventure books? Never played System Shock and been punished for not paying attention or just plain tempting fate by shooting a laser at Earth?