The Wiz Doctrine

[Bayes]

You're probably right. The question is: for the builds that aren't rich on Tradition gain, selecting AP that don't lead to Major changes like Psi or Bio, is viable or not? From Shroud DD it seems like Psi is very strong, and not selecting it is a waste (unless for RP reasons).
Same goes for AI - if all nearby Spiritualistic AI goes down Psi path how "fun" it would be? If going down PSi path would require a particular AI personality, wouldn't it handicap they other AIs with Spiritualism?

Nothing is final, but right now you need 4 perks unlocked to complete the psy ascension. That means there are 2 more perks for you to unlock that isnt related to that. And by the time you get just that option you mentioned maybe you even have unlocked a 5th

 

[Xoatl]

Actually i'm not. I'm more interested in Psi leaders bonuses and techs. Shroud itself feels more like last resort, or a good way to get a shrouded planet and present it to your Enemy. If it's possible.

And mega-structures, they didn't impress me at all. Looks like a boxed loser choice or a tool for someone who pursue diplo-victory.

Totally agree, first level of psi path should be open to anyone, 2nd level to spiritualists. My only problem when I think about this is that unlocking the first psi AP immediately unlocks psi corps and psi armies, that shouldn't be the case if we allow first psi AP for all, at least you should research a tech for them after getting the AP. The psychic traits for a certain % of POPs and leaders is acceptable, maybe a tech to boost the % a little further as well.

Also mega-structures are really interesting. You'll have habitats for extra POPs which is cool, ring worlds, dyson spheres for big energy, science nexus for big research. Mega-structures let you build tall, that is its stated purpose. But considering there's 7 slots, 2 of which will likely be spent on one of the three end game paths, I see no reason for everyone not to pick mega-structures at some point in every game. I see Wiz's two points, but I believe you can strike a good balance if you give it a little more thought. Instead of just forbidding hybrids because it'll be too hard to balance.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Everyone focuses on the shroud 50 year boost. But we have NO clue what the drawback is. Likely you spawn an unbidden type race WITHIN your empire, pretty much ****ing that play through and ending it unless you are VERY prepared. Whats the point of 100%+ everything if you're dead?

Sidenote: I sincerely doubt that the Shroud has any actual link to the Unbidden.

The Shroud isn't a physical "place" from what we've been shown- its more of a realm of consciousness, populated by thought-entities. The Unbidden, however, are quite "real"- they're extradimensional, something we see plenty of other places in Stellaris.

Furthermore, the Unbidden are attracted by Jump Drive technology, not psionics.

No... I suspect that the End Of The Cycle is a more... insidious threat. Something new, certainly, and not just another way of triggering the most over-represented Crisis in the game.

Consider: what's scarier, getting a massive boost to production for 50 years and then needing to throw the doomstack you've built with it at a portal, or, say, your entire empire's populace suddenly gaining the "neutered" trait?

 

[Xoatl]

Sidenote: I sincerely doubt that the Shroud has any actual link to the Unbidden.

The Shroud isn't a physical "place" from what we've been shown- its more of a realm of consciousness, populated by thought-entities. The Unbidden, however, are quite "real"- they're extradimensional, something we see plenty of other places in Stellaris.

Furthermore, the Unbidden are attracted by Jump Drive technology, not psionics.

No... I suspect that the End Of The Cycle is a more... insidious threat. Something new, certainly, and not just another way of triggering the most over-represented Crisis in the game.

Consider: what's scarier, getting a massive boost to production for 50 years and then needing to throw the doomstack you've built with it at a portal, or, say, your entire empire's populace suddenly gaining the "neutered" trait?

I meant an unbidden-like threat, not literally the unbidden. If it's anything like the 40k warp that the shroud shares many similarities with then it isn't outside the realm of possibility. It has also been hinted and speculated on that you get to make deals with different entities (see: Chaos Gods) in the shroud. So presumably there are different pros and cons based on who you make a covenant with.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I meant an unbidden-like threat, not literally the unbidden. If it's anything like the 40k warp that the shroud shares many similarities with then it isn't outside the realm of possibility. It has also been hinted and speculated on that you get to make deals with different entities (see: Chaos Gods) in the shroud. So presumably there are different pros and cons based on who you make a covenant with.

I maintain that the cons of deals with the Shroud would be far more interesting as things you can't just shoot to death. That would undermine the entire threat.

 

[Xoatl]

I maintain that the cons of deals with the Shroud would be far more interesting as things you can't just shoot to death.

I disagree, making deals with extra-dimensional beings and opening up a portal to them only to have them invade and turn out to be malicious is pretty common in fiction. But the more variety the better. Some of the entities are benevolent. But giving 50 years of god mode only to make your POPs immortal but unable to produce children is nowhere near the severity that Wiz hinted at.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I disagree, making deals with extra-dimensional beings and opening up a portal to them only to have them invade and turn out to be malicious is pretty common in fiction. But the more variety the better. Some of the entities are benevolent. But giving 50 years of god mode only to make your POPs immortal but unable to produce children is nowhere near the severity that Wiz hinted at.

"Neutered" doesn't make your POPs immortal, and I don't believe the Psionic Ascension makes ALL your species immortal- just your new God-Empress.

50 years of incredible growth followed by the utterly inevitable extinction of your species- which I will point out is exactly what Neutering them all would do- is pretty damn catastrophic and severe. Far more so than "Oh, gotta crash my doomstack into their doomstack."

 

[Urizen]

Guys now Purge the Xenos is exclusive for Xenophobe, authoritarian can only displace them, and you are the only one that can proced them. So currenly is quite a good reason for going Xenophobe, get asthonishing grow for your original specie throw processing the other empires in the galaxie.

 

[Xoatl]

"Neutered" doesn't make your POPs immortal, and I don't believe the Psionic Ascension makes ALL your species immortal- just your new God-Empress.

50 years of incredible growth followed by the utterly inevitable extinction of your species- which I will point out is exactly what Neutering them all would do- is pretty damn catastrophic and severe. Far more so than "Oh, gotta crash my doomstack into their doomstack."

We can make assumptions all day, but I believe both psi and synth ascenson will in the end make your POPs immortal. Also, doomstack vs. doomstack gives you some chance of surviving, what you described ends the game.

 

[Me_]

"Neutered" doesn't make your POPs immortal, and I don't believe the Psionic Ascension makes ALL your species immortal- just your new God-Empress.

50 years of incredible growth followed by the utterly inevitable extinction of your species- which I will point out is exactly what Neutering them all would do- is pretty damn catastrophic and severe. Far more so than "Oh, gotta crash my doomstack into their doomstack."

Nah, slowly dying out is boring, especially in a game where you can just stop at any moment whenever you feel like you have achieved your goals.

Whatever happens at the end must be a big punch, so that the player would feel like they now have a new challenge to overcome.

 

[Madzai]

BTW, about railing down path. Go check the thread about yesterday stream https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...eatures-gathered-from-17-09-02-stream.998862/
And after that present me a reason not to choose a Psi as Authoritarian\Spiritualists. It literally have all i need as said ethos combo.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

We can make assumptions all day, but I believe both psi and synth ascenson will in the end make your POPs immortal.

Why?

Each Ascension Path being unique especially fits this so-called "Wiz Doctrine"- and we've been pretty extensively shown what the Psionics Ascension does at its various stages; the focus very much appears to be on leader empowerment, with boosts to all types of leader and the possibility to instate an immortal, highly powerful ruler.

Also, doomstack vs. doomstack gives you some chance of surviving, what you described ends the game.

If you pick an option described as "Ending the Cycle" with a tooltip that says "DO NOT DO THIS", then, yes, I believe a non-standard game over is a valid consequence, and far more interesting and sinister than "oops, gotta crash my doomstack into theirs". In fact, there already appears to be a different event that makes you fight something over your homeworld- the one where your top psychic becomes an angry energy being.

I'm not saying it'll be all your POPs being neutered- I'm saying something along those lines would fit far better than a doomstack clash.

 

[Xoatl]

Why?

Each Ascension Path being unique especially fits this so-called "Wiz Doctrine"- and we've been pretty extensively shown what the Psionics Ascension does at its various stages; the focus very much appears to be on leader empowerment, with boosts to all types of leader and the possibility to instate an immortal, highly powerful ruler.


If you pick an option described as "Ending the Cycle" with a tooltip that says "DO NOT DO THIS", then, yes, I believe a non-standard game over is a valid consequence, and far more interesting and sinister than "oops, gotta crash my doomstack into theirs". In fact, there already appears to be a different event that makes you fight something over your homeworld- the one where your top psychic becomes an angry energy being.

Why? Because Ending the Cycle is ending the cycle of birth and death. BIRTH AND DEATH.

Also, yeah, like it was said in the dev diary there are different entities to make covenants and different events related to the Shroud. Not that far of a stretch that some entities will want to invade physical reality like the unbidden, the screenshots seem to hint a "hunger" in them and a strong desire to enter physical reality and possess psychics. Essentially 40k Warp.

 

[Me_]

If you pick an option described as "Ending the Cycle" with a tooltip that says "DO NOT DO THIS", then, yes, I believe a non-standard game over is a valid consequence, and far more interesting and sinister than "oops, gotta crash my doomstack into theirs". In fact, there already appears to be a different event that makes you fight something over your homeworld- the one where your top psychic becomes an angry energy being.

I'm not saying it'll be all your POPs being neutered- I'm saying something along those lines would fit far better than a doomstack clash.

I doubt the tooltip still says this. They have changed the coluring of the text to yellow and the final words from "hunger" to "urgency".

Plus it's a horrible game design to punish the player with game end without explaining the result to him beforehand (note, that it would not be a risk - a risk of failure is sometimes OK, if the game is based around such risks - see Dark Souls for reference, but a certainity is never OK).

Personally, I think the best finale would be you becoming an end-game crisis.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Also, yeah, like it was said in the dev diary there are different entities to make covenants and different events related to the Shroud. Not that far of a stretch that some entities will want to invade physical reality like the unbidden, the screenshots seem to hint a "hunger" in them and a strong desire to enter physical reality and possess psychics. Essentially 40k Warp.

I've never denied that. All I'm saying is that if you want to make there be sinister and spooky consequences to ill-advised pacts with Warp-Daemons, there are far more interesting mechanics to do so through than just spawning enemies to shoot.

 

[Me_]

I've never denied that. All I'm saying is that if you want to make there be sinister and spooky consequences to ill-advised pacts with Warp-Daemons, there are far more interesting mechanics to do so through than just spawning enemies to shoot.

There's nothing interesting in neutering. It's the most boring mechanics one could use.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

There's nothing interesting in neutering. It's the most boring mechanics one could use.

That's entirely a matter of opinion.

The way I saw it presented in another thread (and it clearly stuck with me) was that all of a sudden your species' newborns are just... empty. There's no consciousness. Braindead. Every last one. Your entire species doomed to die out because you traded power with a sinister and apocalyptically-minded entity.

 

[Me_]

That's entirely a matter of opinion.

The way I saw it presented in another thread (and it clearly stuck with me) was that all of a sudden your species' newborns are just... empty. There's no consciousness. Braindead. Every last one. Your entire species doomed to die out because you traded power with a sinister and apocalyptically-minded entity.

That's a cute story you can tell yourself, I agree, but as far as the game is concerned your pops slowly die is the only "Mechanic" that's being used. That's it. Whatever fancy event window pops up can have really awesome description regardless of which game mechanic is being used. You argued for interesting "game mechanics" not interesting "event window text".

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

That's a cute story you can tell yourself, I agree, but as far as the game is concerned your pops slowly die is the only "Mechanic" that's being used. That's it. Whatever fancy event window pops up can have really awesome description regardless of which game mechanic is being used. You argued for interesting "game mechanics" not interesting "event window text".

Taking a choice obviously telegraphed as a Bad End, getting a huge boost to production for a while, and at the end your entire core species getting a countdown to total unavoidable extinction (which, mind you, is NOT a game over- if you can incorporate some other species, or already had, you could keep going at a severe disadvantage) seems a much more interesting way for things to go than "crash doomstack A into doomstack B", which is generally considered a laughably easy challenge to overcome by much of this playerbase.

Again: I'm 100% for nonstandard game-overs if you take Obviously Bad Choices.

 

[Xoatl]

Personally, I think the best finale would be you becoming an end-game crisis.

THIS, this is good game design.