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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning
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Andarak

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Go back and read the bolded parts of that quote, those are my replies. ;)

That's how. You complain when people treat the elections like "real politics" and then you talk about policies! :D
((By "treating iAARs like real politics" I mean "not willing to compromise for the sake of the story". By "policies" I mean "what Tommy wrote in the manifestos". So what I mean is, that I don't agree with what Labour proposes, but I'm considering voting for them just to see how would they fare. If I was treating this iAAR like real politics I would have voted Tory long time ago. Maybe I'm making some lingual mistakes - if so, I apologise, I'm not so good when it comes to speaking in English.))
 

Andrzej I

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And I have never said I support the current Labour platform.
Still, seems to be acting in poor faith to, on one hand, be working out some compromise with a party, all while cheering fervently for the election of another. Mind, I note this only because of people such as the member for Belfast South, who seem to think a lasting compromise between Liberals and Labour is workable, while I... in light of such posts as these, find myself increasingly skeptical. Especially after how the Liberals have treated Labour in the past.
((By "treating iAARs like real politics" I mean "not willing to compromise for the sake of the story". By "policies" I mean "what Tommy wrote in the manifestos". So what I mean is, that I don't agree with what Labour proposes, but I'm considering voting for them just to see how would they fare. If I was treating this iAAR like real politics I would have voted Tory long time ago. Maybe I'm making some lingual mistakes - if so, I apologise, I'm not so good when it comes to speaking in English.))
Makes sense to me, some. Might as well vote Tories all the same, though, if you feel strongly that the Tory policies are better. Candidly, it would make them a stronger opposition and, should the Liberals choose to knife Labour in the back again, a stronger Tory opposition might make a majority government with the Liberals possible.
 
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Antonine

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Still, seems to be acting in poor faith to, on one hand, be working out some compromise with a party, all while cheering fervently for the election of another. Oh well.
The problem with Labour is that you haven't changed your economic policies in a quarter of a century. There's nothing wrong with someone who supports a different economic approach expressing their second preference in terms of governments whilst also, in good faith, negotiating to see if a Labour/Liberal compromise is possible.
 

ThaHoward

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Still, seems to be acting in poor faith to, on one hand, be working out some compromise with a party, all while cheering fervently for the election of another. Mind, I note this only because of people such as the member for Belfast South, who seem to think a lasting compromise between Liberals and Labour is workable, while I... in light of such posts as these, find myself increasingly skeptical. Especially after how the Liberals have treated Labour in the past.
I said that if the Labour government go into a certain direction, and Liberal party, then I would be willing to compromise. As it is I would not be willing to compromise as the policies are static, conservative and un-appealing. If they in the next election change thenselves with a new and improved platform, and have gone into the desired direction, they are of course much more appealing. Currently they are not, but I like the talks of finding a common ground and moving into a different direction. But that may only happen in the future, let it be the next election or in 10 elections, until then I do not wish to cooperate with them under their current platform. Simple as that.
 

Andrzej I

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The problem with Labour is that you haven't changed your economic policies in a quarter of a century. There's nothing wrong with someone who supports a different economic approach expressing their second preference in terms of governments whilst also, in good faith, negotiating to see if a Labour/Liberal compromise is possible.
There's a difference between expressing one's differing opinions on economic approaches and cheering for votes for another party :p
 

ThaHoward

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There's a difference between expressing one's differing opinions on economic approaches and cheering for votes for another party :p
And there's a differnce between disagreeing now, but working towards agreeing in the future. Ergo we're talking about different situations. Just because we might agree in the future, it do not mean that. I have to dogmatically follow your policies just to please you. Just like it doesn't mean you have to support a Lib-Lab government now, or adopt all our policies. Or to openly support and cheer for CPGB because they might turn Europcommie or "Trotskyist" in the future and thus being able to cooperate with Labour.
 

Andrzej I

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No, I agree there. But again, actively rooting for the votes of a party not yours... just makes it seem more as if you were a Tory entryist, to be blunt. At the very least, much more Rightist than the centre-left Labour. And as such, I find it unlikely that such a person would ever really cooperate with Labour. But eh, my opinion and observations. And ones I am, mostly, trying to communicate to Van5 about.
 

ThaHoward

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No, I agree there. But again, actively rooting for the votes of a party not yours... just makes it seem more as if you were a Tory entryist, to be blunt. At the very least, much more Rightist than the centre-left Labour. And as such, I find it unlikely that such a person would ever really cooperate with Labour.
I would preffer a Tory government moderated by Liberal party than going back to the system that put us into this mess and reek of conservatism and unwillingess to change and adapt. It is just that simple.

And I have said I would be willing to work with Labour or compromise with them if they adopted certain policies. Just look at the things Tanzhang and van5 proposed, and I said I would agree to such policies.
 

LordTempest

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Fine, but only if there's agreement that loss-making, non-essential service providing industries are definitely to be privatised either by being sold off or mutualised.
Speaking of, I'm genuinely shocked you haven't spoken more about cooperatives and workplace democracy, that is an area where we can definitely reach a good compromise.

I don't think that any social democratic party worthy of the description can endorse definite privatisation of any industry. Just as Heath and Thatcher supported the nationalisation of Rolls-Royce in the seventies and bailed out Leyland in the 1980's, there are some circumstances where the Labour Party would have to commit itself to denationalisation. We cannot however agree to a generalisation which is in violation of the fourth clause of our party's constitution. That would be an affront to our members.

In other words, we can commit to consultation, consultations whereby if there is an agreement that a loss-making industry not performing a critical service like public transport or health should be privatised, then we shall act according to that ruling. I feel however that the Labour Party cannot however actually say that "that loss-making, non-essential service providing industries are definitely to be privatised" - again, such things should be decided on a case by case basis.

In that case we should seek entry and, if entry is possible, then we should hold a referendum on whether we should join.
I feel that a popular mandate from the British people would greatly aid our chances of acceptance and that therefore it should precede any attempts to seek entry. Joining first only to leave as soon as the referendum is held (if that is the result) would be a diplomatic embarrassment to our country and not a policy which should be considered by any serious party of government.

Yes. Income tax cuts will help workers struggling with the cost of living due to wage restraint and price inflation. Furthermore, some form of Land Value Tax has to be implemented as it's a key Liberal policy - that's why I proposed using it to replace business rates. If you don't like that form of it then come up with an alternative.
I am afraid that we may need to keep taxes as is to pay for some of our important spending policies, such as improving infrastructure and the welfare state. In fair weather this is something we may consider, but in the depths of a social crisis we simply cannot talk about tax cuts at the present time if it would mean less money for health, education and modernising our ageing infrastructure - the policies we also need to enact to ensure greater social mobility in the long term.

Odd then that I have consistently argued for it while Labour has said nothing
FWIW I've often agreed with you to a degree in regards to cooperatives as well, I just tend to only say something when I disagree with you. :)

The further decentralisation of power is a crucial Liberal policy. You can't expect us to go into coalition without concessions of some sort.
I will throw Clause IV back in your face if you insist on negotiating in that tone. I feel that Labour have offered to make considerable concessions just as the Liberals have, and that this should be adequately recognised and respected by our potential Liberal partners.
 

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No, I agree there. But again, actively rooting for the votes of a party not yours... just makes it seem more as if you were a Tory entryist, to be blunt. At the very least, much more Rightist than the centre-left Labour. And as such, I find it unlikely that such a person would ever really cooperate with Labour.
Well, there's some of us who do not find their exact ideas properly represented and have to resort to entryism. It's nothing to be embarrassed about.
 

LordTempest

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No, I agree there. But again, actively rooting for the votes of a party not yours... just makes it seem more as if you were a Tory entryist, to be blunt. At the very least, much more Rightist than the centre-left Labour. And as such, I find it unlikely that such a person would ever really cooperate with Labour. But eh, my opinion and observations. And ones I am, mostly, trying to communicate to Van5 about.
Again, to be fair to Rosa, I get the impression she genuinely believes in social justice, human rights and the social market encomony, and would support a party which professes such values and policies in its manifesto.
 

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Last time, I felt slightly bad voting for the liberals, because of Grimmond. But now the BP faction is there, I don't see how an old liberal, who voted for the party last time, would go Labour.

(But you are entitled to your opinions :D)
'Cause the Tories have to go. Now. It is an emergency vote.
 

LordTempest

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Andrzej I

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I would preffer a Tory government moderated by Liberal party than going back to the system that put us into this mess and reek of conservatism and unwillingess to change and adapt. It is just that simple.

And I have said I would be willing to work with Labour or compromise with them if they adopted certain policies. Just look at the things Tanzhang and van5 proposed, and I said I would agree to such policies.
Well enough. I just find rooting for a party not your own or the party you are seeking to eventually cooperate with to be in good taste. My sincere apologies if any offense was taken, as such was not intended.
Again, to be fair to Rosa, I get the impression she genuinely believes in social justice, human rights and the social market encomony, and would support a party which professes such values and policies in its manifesto.
Agreed, but I'm unsure, truly, if Tommy will change Labour's policies just because of our dialogue, and from what we've seen this election, I think Rosa holds the social market economy above social justice and human rights, hence her cheering for Tory votes, or so I'd think, and thus my view of Lib-Lab cooperation again is... unlikely. It's less a criticism of Rosa, more an expression of skepticism to Van5.
 
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Agreed, but I'm unsure, truly, if Tommy will change Labour's policies just because of our dialogue, and from what we've seen this election, I think Rosa holds the social market economy above social justice and human rights, hence her cheering for Tory votes, or so I'd think, and thus my view of Lib-Lab cooperation again is... unlikely.
Given that he practically rewrote the Yellow manifesto to comply with Antonine's expressed views I think it's perfectly possible. :)
 

Andarak

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Given that he practically rewrote the Yellow manifesto to comply with Antonine's expressed views I think it's perfectly possible. :)
Then again he mentioned that LibLab after this election means that split in Liberal party is highly probable. I, for one, would find it highly unlikely that after Grimond Liberals and Labour would just come to agreement without any tensions whatsover just because you guys are having a nice dialogue.
 

LordTempest

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Then again he mentioned that LibLab after this election means that split in Liberal party is highly probable. I, for one, would find it highly unlikely that after Grimond Liberals and Labour would just come to agreement without any tensions whatsover just because you guys are having a nice dialogue.
If we win a minority government, or a majority government with a slender minority then frankly some level of Lib-Lab cooperation will become necessary. Naturally I hope for a Labour government returned with a healthy majority, just as Antonine hopes for a Liberal one.
 

Enewald

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Citizens of Britain, we need more votes for Tories!
We must prevent the socialists from gaining even more power!
Fight for your liberties, hold onto your purses and choose the Conservative Party!
 

Contravarius

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Andarak

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That's a noble call, but centre-left is openly calling us guilty of the current crisis and is claiming that it has a cure for it. Maybe Labour and their Liberal allies are right? Maybe they are indeed better prepared than Mr. Powell and maybe we should let them do their work? If they would succeed I would indeed be happy, since I care deeply about the future of this country. And if they would not, after their failure people of Britain would see that Tories and our policies are the way towards better future and give us a better mandate to change Britain in the next election.
 
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