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LordTempest

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Under duress of having no other workable government. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if the spirit of Grimond made the Liberals hold Parliament hostage and coerce said parties into accepting the EEC or PR against their will.

As much as Grimond was responsible for that, Antonine's overly-hostile views towards Labour and the Lib-Lab pact also played a big role in Grimond's purge in my view, although Antonine admittedly would likely have preferred it if Grimond was less hostile to the Orangists. Antonine's continuing influence within the party, or at least the yellow faction, is a likely cause of Thorpe's Grimondesque obstinance to not work with other parties.
 

ThaHoward

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As much as Grimond was responsible for that, Antonine's overly-hostile views towards Labour and the Lib-Lab pact also played a big role in Grimond's purge in my view, although Antonine admittedly would likely have preferred it if Grimond was less hostile to the Orangists. Antonine's continuing influence within the party, or at least the yellow faction, is a likely cause of Thorpe's Grimondesque obstinance to not work with other parties.

So Antonine is the big evil grey eminence in the Liberal Party? :p
 

LordTempest

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So Antonine is the big evil grey eminence in the Liberal Party? :p

He is the overt puppetmaster pulling the liberal strings, yes. He is everything Contra would like to be and more. :)
 

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He is the overt puppetmaster pulling the liberal strings, yes. He is everything Contra would like to be and more. :)

So it is he, and not me as some said, who are creating a bad image around the Liberals? Interesting indeed :D
 

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So it is he, and not me as some said, who are creating a bad image around the Liberals? Interesting indeed :D

I don't think he's creating a bad image; he's just getting the party to adopt silly policies and do silly things which lead people to not vote for it. In fairness to the guy at least he's trying to carve out a niche for it after the blandness of the late Grimond years.
 

ThaHoward

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I don't think he's creating a bad image; he's just getting the party to adopt silly policies and do silly things which lead people to not vote for it.

Yup. Which then let others think negativley of it and/or flee from it. Well good to know I don't have anything to do with it :laugh:
 

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Yup. Which then let others think negativley of it and/or flee from it. Well good to know I don't have anything to do with it :laugh:

Who backed his silly "let's have a referendum on the monarchy!" idea again? :p
 

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Who backed his silly "let's have a referendum on the monarchy!" idea again? :p

Maybe I have done all this intentionally? Hohohoho. No, but I support radical forces whereever I see them. Let it be for social justice in the Liberal Party or Monetarism/Free Marketism in the Tory Party. And I have mostly advocated things regarding getting more women to work, legalising abortion, homosexuality, fight against domestic violence and such.
 

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Maybe I have done all this intentionally? Hohohoho.

Are you telling me that for the past couple of elections you've been busy secretly undermining Antonine's position in order to replace him as chief liberal puppetmaster with the ambition to turn the British Liberals into some kind of British Free Democratic Party?
 

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Are you telling me that for the past couple of elections you've been busy secretly undermining Antonine's position in order to replace him as chief liberal puppetmaster with the ambition to turn the British Liberals into some kind of British Free Democratic Party?

I was joking :laugh:

Yes. A desperate crossdresser begging for votes. This is the human perfection.

Now you only need to marry jews, and you're everything you stand against. Oh right, you did that too :p

So NF voters, one of your most vocal activists are a jew lover, who crossdresses and are a closeted homosexual. Beware!
 

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Andrzej I

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So NF voters, one of your most vocal activists are a jew lover, who crossdresses and are a closeted homosexual. Beware!
So they've moderated out already and deserve my vote next election, is what you're saying? :p
 

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So NF voters, one of your most vocal activists are a jew lover, who crossdresses and are a closeted homosexual. Beware!

Oh, so that's why you guys got divorced. :)
 

Dadarian

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We are for ourselves, but that does not exclude we cannot be helpful to other at the same time. Someone produces clocks, not just to his benefit, but so that he gets profits, and so that others can enjoy the clocks. The utility of many people can be thus increased.

We work together because we can, and we know it benefits all of us. Markets are based on voluntary participation, no one forces you to work. You just choose to work with others because the benefits happen to be quite large. You could also very well live alone in a cottage in the middle of woods farming alone and hunting alone. But most people participate on the markets out of free will. THERE IS ALWAYS THE CHOICE NOT TO PARTICIPATE. That is what too many people never realize in their hatred of free markets.

Why would they live on the streets, if they have labour to sell, for which they will be paid, and thus allow them to gain housing? Only state can limit the possibilities of employment, so under properly free competition models everyone who wants to sell their labour could be employed.

Companies consist of people, people with morals. They follow certain patterns of action, and most of them are good people. Yes companies exist to make profit, but they also do much good. Isn't the utility of your life now greater that you can use a computer someone produced, linked to internet someone produced? Or do you despise computers and hate the corporations that force you to buy such goods? :p

Your arguments are mostly overly negative nonsense, people are still not selling their souls. Markets are based on voluntary participation. That is the core idea of a libertarian system. Free will, freedom of choice. No state forcing you this or that way.

Now about consumer theory, something that you probably never have understood. Companies exist to serve the wishes of the consumers. The consumer reigns supreme. Once the consumer gains knowledge that certain company is bad, they will choose to limit their consumption of goods that the bad company produces. If the company faces bad sells, it either reforms, becomes more 'good' and 'just', or faced with long term negative revenue, simply goes bankrupt. All companies serves the whims of the consumers, who are merciless and very rational.
If a bad company operates longer than it should, blame the consumers that keep it afloat. :) And there will be always individuals that are out there to spread knowledge about the misdeeds of 'evil corporations'.

I wrote a long post about charities earlier on this thread, cba to repeat it word by word.

Evil is the absence of good, that normally fills us. Men become evil only under dire times, and even then their evil actions are still very relative in comparison to good times. Some actions will be necessary for the survival of the body. But the majority of the time, the majority of people strive to do good. We are programmed by nature to work for the benefit of our tribe/pack, as long as it also serves our individualistic needs. Basic knowledge about behaviour of animals that live in packs.

Read too much Nietzsche? :p

Mankind always strives for the best possible outcome, erring along the way, with the ultimate amount of good as the ends of the entire race of man. If you refuse to believe otherwise, you can return to your cave of nihilistic philosophers and abandon the teachings of biology, psychology and economics.

Have some faith in mankind Dadarian. :)

No, he produces clocks because he wants to. He might like clocks, and they are the love of his life. But just that, just his. If someone else loves clocks that's all well and good and socialisation can happen. Otherwise he produces clocks and buyers buy.

You are simply, 100% wrong and this is where many issues come from. See I lived in Northern Canada for a couple years, my food was either hunted by myself or came in by plane. You see, there is no leaving the market. To live up North one was required to have the supplies (purchased from the market) to start up and than continue to live. It is simply impossible to start with nothing in currently uninhabited areas and live. You need access to the market to purchase supplies, which means you need currency, which means you need to work. No ifs, ands or buts. The Market is part of the human condition now, it is something the young fight against until they give up and join the system they hate. There is no leaving, there is only working together. Only cooperation, whether we like or want it or not.

See, this is where the free market comes in. In the city no one cares who you are, only what you can do. If you can't do, don't do it, the supervisor doesn't like you, you were in the wrong place and the wrong time, your name popped up or any other innumerable reason you can be easily replaced in the vast majority of jobs by someone else. Again, in the free market, you must abide by the concept of supply and demand. Either you work within the confines of what you are told you get, or one of twenty others who are willing to work harder, longer for cheaper will get that job which you had and you will have your ass on the streets. In the city you pick up whatever is given and do what you are told. Anything less results in you with no job, no income and on the streets. Now do you see why Fred the factory worker works 18 hours a day for 4$ an hour? Or else he will be working 0 hours at 0$ on the street. But at least he has his house right?

People lose their individuality when becoming part of something bigger, when they put on a uniform. A suit is like any other uniform. Businessmen lose their humanity, just like soldiers, cops, average people in mobs or any other example of when people get into large semi-anonymous groups. So no, companies don't exist to do good. Good is usually too expensive to do. They want every last dollar and every last cent to prove to their shareholders that they are worth the time and money invested. Companies are not people, it is an organisation, and like any organisation you get, the larger it is, the less human the parts and the whole.

No, it isn't. You always have a choice, but what's the choice between living on the street, working to death at whatever job you have or dying in a rural area you have no understanding, preparation or experience for. There is always a choice, but the choice rarely matters. Not only that but you have the freedom to work for me or live on the streets. This is the core of the issue, you believe that companies and the people in the free market have a moral compass, I do not. I doubt either of us will ever change our ideals, since you are too naive and comfortable in your ivory tower while I'm here in the working class.

Companies serve whoever gives them money. Customers only reign supreme if they have a choice, I am saying they won't have a choice. Each company will be equally morally bankrupt, equally violent, equally cheap in selling and cheap in paying, each listening solely to their stockholders and their Executive Committees. Why does it matter to ignore one company that sells faulty equipment if the other is faulty in a different yet similar way. Where is the choice when the customer can only choose between bad and bad? Good and Just =/= cheap or fast. And in the end who cares? If you have the choice between 0.99$ gum that might poison you or a 0.99$ gum that might have a finger in it, what is your choice? You don't see justice or morality in these constructions.

Cool, won't read it and you are most likely still wrong.

Men are born evil, taught to be evil and/or resort to evil actions. The majority of people are goodish, if selfish, narcissistic, greedy, prideful, wrathful and full of lust to use a Catholic example.

Nietzsche is a self-serving cunt. I never have read anything of that pompous twat and never will. "God is dead" my fucking ass.

But what is the best possible outcome? That is what I am arguing, not if they try to, which I agree. One man's best outcome is to die with little debt while another is to buy a 100 acres of land with a supermansion on top. Some dedicate their lives to the helping the poor, while others dedicate their lives to trying to be the greatest businessman that ever lived and putting said people in the poor house in their desire for power and wealth. Overall the result is not good, it is a grey and inefficient slow rise as a whole in our quality of life.

I have faith in mankind as far as I can throw it. In the end everything will turn out most likely better, hopefully with a little luck and the laws that the government has created in order to not be utterly abused by companies in their pursuit for the last dime.
 

Tommy4ever

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((You do always have to come prancing in with REAL FACTS, don't you? Do you know how hard it is to deceive people into voting for these godforsaken idiots like this?))

And you do a pretty good job of it too! :p

Labour and the Tories neck and neck on 12 votes each. As the Liberals slide ever closer to 15% its looks like they could be in a very strong position in the next parliament with the power to put either the Conservatives or Labour in government. :eek:
 

Dadarian

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You should explain that to Enewald one of these days. :)

I plan to let the stupid argument I am having with Enewald go soon, I found the crux of the problem and that is what I was interested in.
 
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