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Antonine

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Antonine invents wages. :eek:

An employer's motive is to increase the profit made by a business as he directly benefits from the profit made - and to do this he will be happy to hold down wages. Employees paid wages have a profit motive to do the minimum work necessary to receive their pay because they have no guarantee of profiting when the business does well. It is only when employees have a direct link from the profitability of their business to their pay packets that they will be motivated to do all they can to make the business more profitable.

Just ask John Lewis.
 

Antonine

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Hm, I will vote reluctantly Liberal Party assuming things don't change somehow, for the last time.

God bless you. You win the power to veto any one Liberal policy proposed for our next manifesto.

The next Liberal voter will receive a regional assembly being given the name of their choosing.
 

ThaHoward

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Enewald and ThaHoward believe, as a matter of dogma, that the market is good and that all government intervention is bad.

Where have I said this? :p
 

Antonine

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Where have I said this? :p

With Enewald's views it's explicit. With yours it's more heavily implied. Then again, I suppose you can be excused on account of being a poor benighted foreigner.

Enewald is also a foreigner of course but he's more obnoxious :p
 

ThaHoward

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With Enewald's views it's explicit. With yours it's more heavily implied. Then again, I suppose you can be excused on account of being a poor benighted foreigner.

Enewald is also a foreigner of course but he's more obnoxious :p

I am a foreigner since I am from Liverpool? And I do not believe that all government intervention is bad. Remember when I also told van5 that it doesn't matter in certain situation whether not the sector is private or not? Stop alienating people who agree with you, only because of one minor issue :p I just think that taxing "wealth" (which would hit the lower middle class) and inheritance heaviley is counter productive.

And are you implying poor people and foreigners are ignorant and stupid? I thiught liberals were supposed to be inclusive, and care about everyone in society. Rich or poor, native or foreigner ;)
 

Andarak

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((So, another economy dispute and another case of some users posting several posts in the row, eh?))

This aren't the conservative votes we are looking for. Move along, move along!

((Seriously though, there is this one thing called "Edit" button. I use it quite frequently, it doesn't bite))
 

Enewald

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An employer's motive is to increase the profit made by a business as he directly benefits from the profit made - and to do this he will be happy to hold down wages. Employees paid wages have a profit motive to do the minimum work necessary to receive their pay because they have no guarantee of profiting when the business does well. It is only when employees have a direct link from the profitability of their business to their pay packets that they will be motivated to do all they can to make the business more profitable.

Just ask John Lewis.

An employer hires people to increase profits, yes, why not? What else should they be doing, charity? Run out of cash, unable to reinvest for new machines/etc and go bankrupt and fire everyone? Seriously profits are funnelled into savings and investments, and those are what keep the economy prospering. Without someone making profit and saving their incomes, you would not be able to get loans, nor would new innovations get loans and new enterprises would not be born. What would your alternative utopia be?

A wage is the price of the hour of work that an individual is willing to produce for the employers. He does not work because he likes working, he works so he can get an income, which he can use to buy and consume goods and services. The wage is set by the value of the work he employer is doing. If he is creating lot of value, his wage will be high. If his service is highly demanded, he will be paid more, than someone that produces a service for which there is lesser demand. Demand and supply meet; a wage is set.
In a free market the wages will have no pressure to move up or downwards once the natural equilibrium is achieved. The wage is neither 'fair' nor 'just', it simply reflects the value of the labour the employee is producing for the market. The value is formed by the market demand in relation to the finite supply of said good/service.

When the business is doing well, the employer can hire more workers and buy more machines and expand production. Why the increased demand for his product should increase the wages is a mystery. When the business is going badly, he alone will bear the risks and losses involved, not anyone else.
If the workers want higher share of profits of the company, they can buy shares of the company if those are sold on the market.
Another alternative is that if they are unwilling to work for the company for the naturally set wage, they can always switch job or start their own enterprise.

You cannot force people to sell their property. That is not 'fair legislation', that is theft.
Who would define the price for the shares of this now public company? It cannot be market determined, because markets are based on voluntary participation; demand and supply as determined by free acting men.
You are forcing entrepreneurs to sell their property, how is the price of that said property formed?
 

Antonine

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I am a foreigner since I am from Liverpool? And I do not believe that all government intervention is bad. Remember when I also told van5 that it doesn't matter in certain situation whether not the sector is private or not? Stop alienating people who agree with you, only because of one minor issue :p I just think that taxing "wealth" (which would hit the lower middle class) and inheritance heaviley is counter productive.

And are you implying poor people and foreigners are ignorant and stupid? I thiught liberals were supposed to be inclusive, and care about everyone in society. Rich or poor, native or foreigner ;)

I thought you were from Oslo :p

Again, how would it hit the lower middle class?

And no, there's nothing ignorant or stupid about poor people or foreigners but foreigners are less likely to be aware of brilliant ideas like LVT ;)
 

ThaHoward

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Antonine

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An employer hires people to increase profits, yes, why not? What else should they be doing, charity? Run out of cash, unable to reinvest for new machines/etc and go bankrupt and fire everyone? Seriously profits are funnelled into savings and investments, and those are what keep the economy prospering. Without someone making profit and saving their incomes, you would not be able to get loans, nor would new innovations get loans and new enterprises would not be born. What would your alternative utopia be?

A wage is the price of the hour of work that an individual is willing to produce for the employers. He does not work because he likes working, he works so he can get an income, which he can use to buy and consume goods and services. The wage is set by the value of the work he employer is doing. If he is creating lot of value, his wage will be high. If his service is highly demanded, he will be paid more, than someone that produces a service for which there is lesser demand. Demand and supply meet; a wage is set.
In a free market the wages will have no pressure to move up or downwards once the natural equilibrium is achieved. The wage is neither 'fair' nor 'just', it simply reflects the value of the labour the employee is producing for the market. The value is formed by the market demand in relation to the finite supply of said good/service.

When the business is doing well, the employer can hire more workers and buy more machines and expand production. Why the increased demand for his product should increase the wages is a mystery. When the business is going badly, he alone will bear the risks and losses involved, not anyone else.
If the workers want higher share of profits of the company, they can buy shares of the company if those are sold on the market.
Another alternative is that if they are unwilling to work for the company for the naturally set wage, they can always switch job or start their own enterprise.

You cannot force people to sell their property. That is not 'fair legislation', that is theft.
Who would define the price for the shares of this now public company? It cannot be market determined, because markets are based on voluntary participation; demand and supply as determined by free acting men.
You are forcing entrepreneurs to sell their property, how is the price of that said property formed?

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on the relationship between wages and a "free" market. I will ask why you are convinced that employees who own a business are too stupid and short-sighted to invest profits in their business though.

And, as far as I'm aware, thieves don't pay people for things they take.

We have a longstanding principle in this country of eminent domain and of the right of compulsory purchase. If it's acceptable for the government to use that to take property for the benefit of the greater good then there is no reason it should not be acceptable for workers to have the same right with a company that depends upon them to function.
 

Antonine

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ThaHoward

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You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on the relationship between wages and a "free" market. I will ask why you are convinced that employees who own a business are too stupid and short-sighted to invest profits in their business though.

And, as far as I'm aware, thieves don't pay people for things they take.

We have a longstanding principle in this country of eminent domain and of the right of compulsory purchase. If it's acceptable for the government to use that to take property for the benefit of the greater good then there is no reason it should not be acceptable for workers to have the same right with a company that depends upon them to function.

If someone is forced to give up their property to others, it may be considered thievery. Of course emoloyees should be (and are) allowed to buy out the current owners. But they can do that today, and it then make little sense in saying it is legal. Then we can as. I have mentioned legalize talking too. The problem arise, however, if you make it so that if the employees get enough money to buy out their owner(s) then the owner(s) have to accept it. Other than that they should be allowed to do so if it is a mutual deal, and bussinesses should be able to organize in the matter they think is the most effective.

Just because you represent a Liverpool constituency doesn't mean you come from there. After all, I represented Orkney and the Shetlands despite being English :p

Well I am from there ;) And even if I was a foreigner (which is unlikely due to the laws for MP's) it wouldn't matter at all. Nationality doesn't make one stupidier or smarter. It is values like that who have led to colonialnism and exploitation of other peoples ;) With your idas of equality I thought you should know that. Unless you want to pass these laws since you think i.e women and homosexuals are inferior and need protction from the better humans of course ;)
 

Dadarian

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((So, another economy dispute and another case of some users posting several posts in the row, eh? Seriously though, there is this one thing called "Edit" button. I use it quite frequently, it doesn't bite))

((Lololololololol))
 

Enewald

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You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on the relationship between wages and a "free" market. I will ask why you are convinced that employees who own a business are too stupid and short-sighted to invest profits in their business though.

And, as far as I'm aware, thieves don't pay people for things they take.

We have a longstanding principle in this country of eminent domain and of the right of compulsory purchase. If it's acceptable for the government to use that to take property for the benefit of the greater good then there is no reason it should not be acceptable for workers to have the same right with a company that depends upon them to function.

They are not stupid. They invest the profits in a way that reaps them the greatest profits. If it is buying more machines for their own factory, or handing loans to friends, or investing in a foreign country with a booming economy; their decisions are rarely 'stupid' nor short-sighted. You may not see their rationale behind complex investments into questionable projects, but usually don't just throw money away after having earned it. So they will invest the profits they make into their own business if they believe it increases their utility most.

Who is stealing what? People selling labour are being robbed of their work hours? Or talking about government theft aka nationalization?

There is no such thing as compulsory purchase. Either both parties agree on the deal, and the deal is made with both sides assuming they are gaining something from it; that is the basic core of markets, voluntary trading with one another. Markets are build upon voluntary participation.
You are describing a system where the government uses the threat of force to make people agree to things they would not accept under normal circumstances.
I believe that it is wrong for someone to take away the property that belongs to someone else. That is usually called stealing.

There is no such thing as greater good. Or maybe I'm a stupid obnoxious foreigner; maybe you should enlighten this poor barbaric soul that has to live his life outside the glorious Anglo-Saxon world?

Two wrongs won't make one right. Theft is theft.
 

ThaHoward

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Now now, the Anglo-Saxon race have a mission to civilize due to their superior genetics and culture, all in the name of the greater good! :D

I wondr if this is a result of English elitism, or liberal self rightenouss.. Hmm.
 
Last edited:

Antonine

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If someone is forced to give up their property to others, it may be considered thievery. Of course emoloyees should be (and are) allowed to buy out the current owners. But they can do that today, and it then make little sense in saying it is legal. Then we can as. I have mentioned legalize talking too. The problem arise, however, if you make it so that if the employees get enough money to buy out their owner(s) then the owner(s) have to accept it. Other than that they should be allowed to do so if it is a mutual deal, and bussinesses should be able to organize in the matter they think is the most effective.

They can't buy out their employers though unless the company is publicly traded (which is a small minority of companies and zero small and medium sized companies). That's why giving employees the right to buy out their employer is necessary. Let us not forget that, while you require entrepreneurs and others to invest to start up a business, no business can survive long without it's labour force. It is the employees who make the company profitable and therefore their labour earns them just as much right over it as the person who bought it.

Now now, the Anglo-Saxon race have a mission to civilize due to their superior genetics and culture, all in the name of the greater good! :D

I wondr if this is a result of English elitism, or liberal self rightenouss.. Hmm.

Of course we have a mission to civilise. We are the country which invented liberalism and clearly liberalism is the greatest political philosophy in existence so it is our duty to share our good fortune with our neighbours.
 

LordTempest

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The next Liberal voter will receive a regional assembly being given the name of their choosing.

What is it with you Liberals and making promises you know you cannot keep? :p
 

ThaHoward

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They can't buy out their employers though unless the company is publicly traded (which is a small minority of companies and zero small and medium sized companies). That's why giving employees the right to buy out their employer is necessary. Let us not forget that, while you require entrepreneurs and others to invest to start up a business, no business can survive long without it's labour force. It is the employees who make the company profitable and therefore their labour earns them just as much right over it as the person who bought it.

And what is this right? Is it a right to simply offer the purchase, or if they want to buy it the owner(s) have to sell it? Would you like it if those who built your house could buy it any day, and you couldn't deny it's sale?
 

Antonine

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As a special treat for the audience:

[video=youtube;sTxyNQ0ea-k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTxyNQ0ea-k[/video]
 
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