The Waiting Game?

[Marcus Scipio]

So, I decided to start a new game playing with Brabant.

To me, this game is an additional challenge, because, for the first time, I have decided not to cheat. Until now, I cheated with money, manpower, magistrates, colonists, etc., and I was having fun. So now I try to have fun without the cheats, but I am tempted... a lot.

So, what have I done so far:

I've made myself a little empire of Vassals. Hesse is in a PU.

So: what are my goals?

- I want to form The Netherlands
- I want to colonize the New World, and build a trade empire.

But I feel frustrated. I'm landlocked, so no colonizing. I have vasalised Utrecht and Friesland, I'm waiting for the king of Henaut to die to get my hands on Holland and Zeeland. So, I was hoping to get the "Annex Vassal" type of missions, but instead I get "improve relations", "make ... vote for us", etc.

I'd like to try and Annex Friesland, to at least get a port (I'm at trading 5 going on 6), but better then "Unlikely" or "Maybe" I'm not gonna get.

So, any tips on my best course of action? Or do I just need to be patient?

 

[chgrogers]

Increase your Sphere of Influence. It will increase your chances to annex vassals. If you can win a war against Burgundy. I would take Antwerp. It will be a Non HRE port and a Center of Trade.

 

[Camtheman]

Yeah, I'm the same way... without the willpower... I stopped trying to play legit completely... It was simply too much waiting. I can wait for death anyday, I want to have fun NOW...

Good luck, though.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Yeah, I'm the same way... without the willpower... I stopped trying to play legit completely... It was simply too much waiting. I can wait for death anyday, I want to have fun NOW...

Good luck, though.

Why not just play every game with cheat on? Like put 9 queens on your side of the chess board, 2 straight flushes in your game of Big 2, and 50 motherships in your game of starcraft.

That's very fun.

 

[DDRJake]

Landlocked HRE games feel very sterile, I can understand your frustration.

You have some goals I see so make a bee-line for them. Based on your 0 merchants It would seem you're not getting the whole trade empire thing off to a great start. Since it'll be quite some time before you end up with a cored port you may wany to sink your teeth into Lubeck and Antwerp for a little added muscle which should get your colonisation off on the right foot when they core. Other than that, set speed to 5 and let the years roll by if you're waiting for something. The game's over 400 years long after all.

 

[Marcus Scipio]

Thanks for some usefull replies!

Why not just play every game with cheat on? Like put 9 queens on your side of the chess board, 2 straight flushes in your game of Big 2, and 50 motherships in your game of starcraft.

That's very fun.

Been there, done that, T-shirt ordered.

I've played the game. Now I want to beat it on it's own turf. Should be fun, too, and more satisfying.

Landlocked HRE games feel very sterile, I can understand your frustration.

You have some goals I see so make a bee-line for them. Based on your 0 merchants It would seem you're not getting the whole trade empire thing off to a great start.

Merchants are on auto-send. I've got 2 in Antwerp, and 1 competing in Alexandria. I was thrown from Lübeck after a war with the Hansa in which I freed Hamburg. I'd like to have them vassaled, but the cost was to great.

Shoud I manually send Merchants?

Since it'll be quite some time before you end up with a cored port you may wany to sink your teeth into Lubeck and Antwerp for a little added muscle which should get your colonisation off on the right foot when they core.

Well, Burgundy ís the HRE, and it's military is a little bit beyond mine... Lubeck is HRE,a dn getting another CB on The Hansa shouldn't be to hard, but isn't it in the HRE?

Other than that, set speed to 5 and let the years roll by if you're waiting for something. The game's over 400 years long after all.

Well, I got it on three, but have to keep pausing or miss the Alliance and Marriage offers I really need. My king's daughters are very popular (which isn't that amazing, since Brabantian wonen are among the best looking in the world...)

Increase your Sphere of Influence. It will increase your chances to annex vassals. If you can win a war against Burgundy. I would take Antwerp. It will be a Non HRE port and a Center of Trade.

I had SoI of about 6-8 countries, which added 6 to my Diplomacy of 6. But still only maybe... Burgundy is an option, if it ceases to be Emperor... maybe.

On the other hand: is it worth to pursue becoming Emperor myself? I've got 2 electors vassalised, Trier could probably be added to get three votes. Would this be a wise course of action?

 

[fleetothemoon]

So, I decided to start a new game playing with Brabant.

To me, this game is an additional challenge, because, for the first time, I have decided not to cheat. Until now, I cheated with money, manpower, magistrates, colonists, etc., and I was having fun. So now I try to have fun without the cheats, but I am tempted... a lot.

Grats, and quite a good first attempt. Personally I enjoy playing HRE minors like Brabant, Hesse, Holland and the like. They get a slow start and you really have to be opportunistic early on to get things rolling but this makes it more challenging in my opinion.

But I feel frustrated. I'm landlocked, so no colonizing. I have vasalised Utrecht and Friesland, I'm waiting for the king of Henaut to die to get my hands on Holland and Zeeland. So, I was hoping to get the "Annex Vassal" type of missions, but instead I get "improve relations", "make ... vote for us", etc.

Before running off to the New World, I'd really recommend acquiring more power in your region first. It's really only a matter of time before Burgundy gets the Conquer Brabant mission. With three provinces, your manpower and income simply can't compete. Plus, you'd need a more solid base of operation to deal with other great colonizers (Castille, England, Portugal etc). Depending on how your game go, France may reunite completely and eat up Burgundy, in which case, you'll have a even bigger menace on your doorstep. Remember that it's okay to enter the colonizing game a bit later if it means securing the area at home first.

Merchants are on auto-send. I've got 2 in Antwerp, and 1 competing in Alexandria. .

If I recall, Brabant starts out leaning towards Mercantilism. Combined with an infamy of 17 (-34% compete chance), it may not be particularly cost effective to compete in most CoTs right now.

Well, I got it on three, but have to keep pausing or miss the Alliance and Marriage offers I really need. My king's daughters are very popular (which isn't that amazing, since Brabantian wonen are among the best looking in the world...)

You may know this already, but you can hit space to pause. I play on 5+ speed pretty much all the time. Although this is really a matter of preference.

On the other hand: is it worth to pursue becoming Emperor myself? I've got 2 electors vassalised, Trier could probably be added to get three votes. Would this be a wise course of action?

In my opinion, you should try to get a bit larger before opting to become emperor. The problem with being emperor is that you lose the -.25 infamy bonus from being an HRE member. Also, it may be difficult to take advantage of the massive boost to your force limit and manpower when you don't have the economy back it up. Plus, it means non-HRE powers gets a free bite at you without the likes of Austria/Bohemia coming to help. Although if Burgundy has been holding the Imperial crown for too long, you may want to take it just to weaken them.



In general, PUing Hesse was a good move, see if you can PU Cleves and Brunswick so they connect... and every other Monarch in-between when the opportunity presents itself. Take advantage of the fact that you are from the HRE which means all PUs with other HRE nations will result in inheritance with cores. Also keep increasing that vassal empire of yours with those 2/3PMs they'll come in handy when it comes to the inevitable fight against Burgundy. All this with proper infamy management in mind of course.

 

[Marcus Scipio]

Grats, and quite a good first attempt. Personally I enjoy playing HRE minors like Brabant, Hesse, Holland and the like. They get a slow start and you really have to be opportunistic early on to get things rolling but this makes it more challenging in my opinion.

Thanks! I've been playing for a couple o' years now, even since EUI, but never did it without cheating... :unsure: I must be growing up...

So, what do you do? Vassalize or annex your neighbours?

Before running off to the New World, I'd really recommend acquiring more power in your region first. It's really only a matter of time before Burgundy gets the Conquer Brabant mission. With three provinces, your manpower and income simply can't compete. Plus, you'd need a more solid base of operation to deal with other great colonizers (Castille, England, Portugal etc). Depending on how your game go, France may reunite completely and eat up Burgundy, in which case, you'll have a even bigger menace on your doorstep. Remember that it's okay to enter the colonizing game a bit later if it means securing the area at home first.

Useful advise. I was hoping to colonize the Azores and/or the Canaries before Portugal, but I don't think I'll make it, but I guess you're right.
Like I said: I want to form the Netherlands, which should be a colonial powerhouse.

If I recall, Brabant starts out leaning towards Mercantilism. Combined with an infamy of 17 (-34% compete chance), it may not be particularly cost effective to compete in most CoTs right now.

I've changed sliders towards free trade twice. I have a reasonable change in Alexandria, the rest is indeed quite awful.

In my opinion, you should try to get a bit larger before opting to become emperor. The problem with being emperor is that you lose the -.25 infamy bonus from being an HRE member. Also, it may be difficult to take advantage of the massive boost to your force limit and manpower when you don't have the economy back it up. Plus, it means non-HRE powers gets a free bite at you without the likes of Austria/Bohemia coming to help. Although if Burgundy has been holding the Imperial crown for too long, you may want to take it just to weaken them.

I should be able to field 20+ regiments, although Burgundy has twice as much. However, my manpower about a 130, growing very slowly....
Burgundy just became Emperor instead of Bohemia, they are my ally and I have 100+ relations. I think I'll play good with them... for now.

In general, PUing Hesse was a good move, see if you can PU Cleves and Brunswick so they connect... and every other Monarch in-between when the opportunity presents itself. Take advantage of the fact that you are from the HRE which means all PUs with other HRE nations will result in inheritance with cores. Also keep increasing that vassal empire of yours with those 2/3PMs they'll come in handy when it comes to the inevitable fight against Burgundy. All this with proper infamy management in mind of course.

The PU was pure luck, because of my Royal Marriage. I might be lucky and get one or two more. I've tried claiming the throne of Gelre, but it resulted in my alliances collapsing, plummeting relations with Burgundy, followed by a DoW. Not a good course of action, so I replayed that. (Well, yes, that is some sort of cheating to, I guess, but I'm trying things out and learning).
Spies forging claims isn't really working...

So, the best course is to get more vassals? Don't take provinces or annex them?

 

[przemo_li]

For vassals. SoI + diplomacy. Unless your king really suck at diplo. (8 + 3 is not so good as 8 + 8 right?)

 

[glen55]

Players who are manually sending merchants often use a rule of thumb to only send when the compete chance is 75% or more. So you might want to turn auto-send off for COTs where you have a lower chance than that. Otherwise, you're just flushing money.

 

[chgrogers]

Thanks! I've been playing for a couple o' years now, even since EUI, but never did it without cheating... :unsure: I must be growing up...

So, what do you do? Vassalize or annex your neighbours?

I would Vassalize and then diplo annex your vassals. Your route of expansion is within the HRE so it will be slow due to the 0.25 infamy for each uncored province, but you get a -0.25 modifier for being in the HRE so it balances out with 1 and 2 will not hurt too bad.

Useful advise. I was hoping to colonize the Azores and/or the Canaries before Portugal, but I don't think I'll make it, but I guess you're right.
Like I said: I want to form the Netherlands, which should be a colonial powerhouse.

Netherlands does not have to be a colonial powerhouse. My Brabant game started with the same desire and I got stuck with the same raw deal not port in the middle of the colonial race. A large vassal army to the North and Burgundian HRE to the south. A met B and I took some HRE territories and the Emperor title. Never did get a colonial empire but it was still fun.

I've changed sliders towards free trade twice. I have a reasonable change in Alexandria, the rest is indeed quite awful.

Just keep moving the slider. If you want to compete get the Compete NI first then swap out of Trade Policy when you can compete in several different COTs. National Trade Policy is better than Shrewd Commerce Practice but it will help stick merchant earlier than Trade Policy.

I should be able to field 20+ regiments, although Burgundy has twice as much. However, my manpower about a 130, growing very slowly....
Burgundy just became Emperor instead of Bohemia, they are my ally and I have 100+ relations. I think I'll play good with them... for now.

Shame that means all of Flanders is now in the Empire and will have 0.25 unlawful territory added to it. Best wait until you have form Netherlands and take the cores.

The PU was pure luck, because of my Royal Marriage. I might be lucky and get one or two more. I've tried claiming the throne of Gelre, but it resulted in my alliances collapsing, plummeting relations with Burgundy, followed by a DoW. Not a good course of action, so I replayed that. (Well, yes, that is some sort of cheating to, I guess, but I'm trying things out and learning).
Spies forging claims isn't really working...

So, the best course is to get more vassals? Don't take provinces or annex them?

Forging Claim use the first Tab on the ledger, Nation Comparison. Sort by Legit. Smallest to largest. Looks for your targets in the known nations. Anyone with less than 50% and is not in a PU is eligible.

Claim Throne results in -100 relations with every nation you have a Royal Marriage with.

I would get Vassals in the HRE and take territory from other nations. Start Annexing your cores needed for The Netherlands. Start with Holland and wait. hopefully Friesland and Urtrecht will be incorporate missions. If not annex them 1 every 50 years or 1 every time and wait 50 years.

I tried gaming the missions to get more incorporate your vassals but all I seem to get is vote for me, secure the succession and Naval Race with my Rivals. <-- most irritating when they have 3 times more ships than you have Force limits.

 

[ANO1453]

Well, Burgundy ís the HRE, and it's military is a little bit beyond mine... Lubeck is HRE,a dn getting another CB on The Hansa shouldn't be to hard, but isn't it in the HRE?

If you are in the HRE, the Emperor will not interfere as long as you have a casus belli.

 

[Marcus Scipio]

Players who are manually sending merchants often use a rule of thumb to only send when the compete chance is 75% or more. So you might want to turn auto-send off for COTs where you have a lower chance than that. Otherwise, you're just flushing money.

Guess you're right about this, thanks!

I would Vassalize and then diplo annex your vassals. Your route of expansion is within the HRE so it will be slow due to the 0.25 infamy for each uncored province, but you get a -0.25 modifier for being in the HRE so it balances out with 1 and 2 will not hurt too bad.

So, how do I increase changes above "Maybe"?

Netherlands does not have to be a colonial powerhouse. My Brabant game started with the same desire and I got stuck with the same raw deal not port in the middle of the colonial race. A large vassal army to the North and Burgundian HRE to the south. A met B and I took some HRE territories and the Emperor title. Never did get a colonial empire but it was still fun.

Well, fun's the ultimate goal. We'll see how it goes.

Just keep moving the slider. If you want to compete get the Compete NI first then swap out of Trade Policy when you can compete in several different COTs. National Trade Policy is better than Shrewd Commerce Practice but it will help stick merchant earlier than Trade Policy.

At the moment I ave Military Drill for my first choice. Would it be wise to switch it for the compete chance?

Shame that means all of Flanders is now in the Empire and will have 0.25 unlawful territory added to it. Best wait until you have form Netherlands and take the cores.

Not sure if it's in the Empire, but it's owner is the Emperor. But sooner or later it'll get in a brawl with France, so i might just back-stab Burgundy then.

Forging Claim use the first Tab on the ledger, Nation Comparison. Sort by Legit. Smallest to largest. Looks for your targets in the known nations. Anyone with less than 50% and is not in a PU is eligible.

I'll look into this, but so far the button hasn't turned yellow.

I would get Vassals in the HRE and take territory from other nations. Start Annexing your cores needed for The Netherlands. Start with Holland and wait. hopefully Friesland and Urtrecht will be incorporate missions. If not annex them 1 every 50 years or 1 every time and wait 50 years.

Sounds good, but how to deal with the Emperor and his requests to hand the territory over?

If you are in the HRE, the Emperor will not interfere as long as you have a casus belli.

See above: he doesn't mind warring, but how to cope with the Unlawful Territory?

 

[chgrogers]

Increasing the size of your Sphere if Influence adds to your diplomatic score, diplomatic advisor and a good diplomatic leader. Trust is another thing so keep your deals don't backstage your allies without letting them know first. Low Infamy.

That is Economic vs. Military NIs. If you plan on fighting a larger foe with Military NIs as well stay with MD. If you plan on fighting and vassalizing minors and will avoid conflict with larger powers economic NIs will help. Burgundy will eventually get the conquest Brabant mission I say stay with MD.

You need 100 ducats before it will turn yellow.

The AI Emperor who have territory outside of the HRE and is in the HRE will add cores to the HRE for influence. So all of the Flanders area is now in the HRE.

If I want it I take the stab hit and move on. Better bribe Burg up to 200. If I don't want it I give it away. I would attempt to sway votes from Burgundy and get another Emperor elected.

 

[Marcus Scipio]

Well, Burgundy just became Emperor, so I'll see about Antwerp.

As for the Integrating: a leader with Dip 6, +6 for SOI on the skill, 300+ in cash and still no luck. So, yes, the infamy might indeed be the problem...

 

[unmerged(540854)]

To be honest I have never seen a diplo annex chance rated at higher then maybe. Aslong as you have the cash id say go for it with Friesland. Just spam them with request gift gift request etc. untill it works. Usually even with unlikely odds it does not take more the 5 tries. Although chance being chance you can always be unlucky.

If you dont have the money for rthe gifts this can be a problem though. I used to think maybe wasnt good enough, then I read prawnstars no-past-BBlimit WC. Banging your head against the wall enough times will bring the wall down

 

[Marcus Scipio]

I want to thank you all for your useful replies. Like I said, I've been playing the game for years, but doing it without cheating, well, at least not the ALT-21 cheatcodes, really gives a different and more satisfying experience.

Best tip might have been to take the merchants from auto-send. I took the compete change NI, and now I'm sending them to different CoT's with a 80+% chance. This really contributed to my income, and for the first time ever I'm actually making money instead of generating it via the "cash"-code.

To be honest I have never seen a diplo annex chance rated at higher then maybe. Aslong as you have the cash id say go for it with Friesland. Just spam them with request gift gift request etc. untill it works. Usually even with unlikely odds it does not take more the 5 tries. Although chance being chance you can always be unlucky.

If you dont have the money for rthe gifts this can be a problem though. I used to think maybe wasnt good enough, then I read prawnstars no-past-BBlimit WC. Banging your head against the wall enough times will bring the wall down

Well, thanks to the additional money from my merchants, I did have enough. Friesland gave in after the 2nd attempt. That being said, I expanded some more.

Okay, so I cheated a bit. But is save/reload really a cheat when you're learning by trial and error? Burgundy had the mission to conquer Luxembourg, but they never acted on it. Instead they went for Gelre, my ally. Answering their Call to Arms didn't prove to be the best choice of action. So I reloaded, cancelled all treaties with Gelre and waited. So when Burgundy marched in, so did I.

Since Burgundy was the Emperor herself, the Emperor didn't protect Gelre, and I annexed. Yes, it cost me a lot of infamy, but I had my first harbour and I built an Embassy. Then Holland became independent, I forged claims (setting me back 200g) and I got a PU.

A war with Bavaria allowed me to vassalise Cologne, and now I'm emperor as well. Perhaps a bit too soon, but rather me then Burgundy, who really seems to hate me now: the pope excommunicated me twice on their request. But on the other hand, the emperor bonuses might just be enough to keep them of my back, or at least withstand rthem, for now they have the "conquer Brabant" mission...