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Hammer54

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I've attempted to deduct and write down the economic model in Victoria in "economic terms". The purpose of this document is to ease modding by trying to explain how the different values under ..\Victoria\db\economy interact with Victoria. Part 1 of the document is an attempt to deduct the economic model in Victoria. Part 2 of the document is not meant as a critique of Victoria or Paradox, but rather how an economist would approach the problem of making an economic model for a game like Victoria.

I would appreciate any comments.

Link: http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~fjellham/Victoria.pdf v0.2
 
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OriginalRafiki

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First thought: wow!

*hits print and intends to read during next break*

Are you sure that link shouldn't be at www.bi.no? ;)

:) Rafiki
 

Hammer54

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rafiki said:
First thought: wow!

*hits print and intends to read during next break*

Are you sure that link shouldn't be at www.bi.no? ;)

:) Rafiki
I'm quite sure it shouldn't be at www.bi.no. I'm currently writing a masters thesis with the Department of Economics, Faculty of Social Sciences at Dragvoll, NTNU. BI would be kind of an insult to any of us. :)
 
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Hey great work of you!!! Congratulations!
We should offer you an academic title... where are you teaching
the economics of Victoria? :D :rofl: :D
 

OriginalRafiki

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Yeah, you guys have been having some serious problems with polar bear infestation lately, haven't you? A friend of mine almost lost his leg to one when visiting last week!

;) Rafiki
 

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Paper Review

Hello Hammer,

I had also thought about how to bring the Victoria Economic model closer to reality, but I couldn't find the effort to write such a paper. Great!

Concerning its contents it could use a little bit of improvement. Let's start
Equation (2) on page 6 is wrong since as you later point out in the second part factories can't substitute input whereas according to the equation 100% substituteability would exists. A more correct version of the equation would replace the (X1+X2+X3) with 1 representing the fixed input bundle.

What is not mentioned in equation (3) is that profit normally is income - variable costs - fixed cost. Only in Victoria fixed costs = 0. This should have consequences for the supply curves, although I haven't though much about that.

The following demand vs. supply analysis is IMHO utterly fruitless since it is assuming a normally shaped demand curve. But demand in Victoria is completely inflexible since ceterum paribus it only depends on the entry in the pop-needs files. So demand is a line parallel to the x-axis and therefor supply side has to do _all_ the work to bring the market to an equilibrium.

BTW, the min/max-price prevents equilibrium analysis on pages 9&10 has two further problems: First, it is vice versa with the effects on proice, i.e. in Fig. 3 with Pmax below equilibrium the commodity price will _not_ go lower and lower but constantly be at Pmax (and there will be a huge supply deficit, the typical effect of artificially capped prices in real economies, too).
Second, I'm not sure if things like Pmax and Pmin really exist in 1.03. I have seen prices going from as low as 0.5 (from a supposed 20 or so for precious metals) to 5 times and more its supposed price (regular clothing). The problem of 1.03 is serious undersupply of goods in combination with the completely inflexible demand mentioned above.

Part 2 is all correct, at least as far as I can tell, and along the lines I also thought, i.e. you need to include utility into the model to avoid grossly overpriced goods to drain the pockets of the populace. But it is IMHO mostly a repetition of textbook material instead of a real analysis of how an utility based economy can be modeled in a game like this. That needs an analysis of what is implementable.

The problem with modeling an utility-based economy is
- you need to calculate the 'm's in equation 4
- you would have to remember for each POP how much of which good he has already bought and how this influenced his future demand of that good.
Both are too time consuming to calculate every game day.

So what would be an implementable model. I'll try a shoot at it:
1) All goods have an utility value. Too make it easy let's set their utility = base price from resource-prices.txt
2) POPs have no longer a need for specific goods but just a need for a specific amount of utility. So e.g. a farmer desires e.g. 5 'units' of utility per time unit whereas a capitalist desires 50 units. Each class of POP will therefore have 3 utility goals (for each category of goods one).
3) POPs buy goods to fulfill this utility need. They choose the good with the best utility to price ratio for their next buy.
-----
This rule ensures that overpriced goods will be bought less and so demand for overpriced goods is really diminishing as the theory says it should.
BTW, up to now there is no real difference to what Hammer wrote.
-----
4) All products in each category (life,everyday,luxury) are substituteable against each other.
5) Utility of a product dimishes according how much a POP has bought of it (because it gets fed up with it). Let's use a grossly oversimplified formular for that: u(m)=(1-m^2/c^2) * ub with

m: how many units of the goods have been bought over some timeframe
c: a cutoff value (constant but different for each good). After buying c units the good has an utility of 0.
ub: The base utility of the good
u(m): the utility the good has after m units of it have been bought (within a specific timeframe)

So assume fruit has a cutoff of 6. It has a base price=utility of 1 so
Code:
 m   | 0  |   1   |  2  |  3  |  4  |   5   |  6  |
---------------------------------------------------
u(m) | 1  | 35/36 | 8/9 | 3/4 | 5/9 | 11/36 |  0  |

After buying 2 fruits in the last periods, Fruits will only have an utility of 8/9 for a POP. So if only fruit has been bough and all product are at their base prices (i.e. everything except fruit has an utility/price ratio of 1), the POP will buy something else.

----
So even although the function contains a square it can be easily saved as a table for fast evaluation.
BTW to all economists reading this: I know that the above formula contradicts the insatibility assumption of utility theory. But it is IMHO a nice function and who believes in insatibility anyway.
-----

5a) Each POP kind might have a different c for a good. (e.g. acapitalists have a c of 9 for regular clothes wereas a farmer has a c of 4 )
6) m, the amount of a good already bought, is not calculated per individual POP but per POP class.
-----
This is neither correct nor fair but It should speed up calculation considerably since it only needs one arrays per POP class to sum up all goods bought per buying period which is aged (e.g. multiplied by 9/10) for the next period and then used as to precalculate the utility/price ratio for all POPs of that kind.

It is not fair since POPs in poorer countries will have the utility of goods reduced by POPs of the same class in richer countries which buy more of the goods. This could be helped by having one array per POP class and country but that could already be a little much to store in a savefile.
-----

This should give a much smoother behaviour of the demand side than what we see today in Victoria. First, If the price of a good climbs it is bought less, second, due to decreasing utility not everyone buy as much as possible from the good with the highest utility/price ration.


Enhancements: Instead of simply setting utility=price you could do away with the seperate classes of goods (life, everyday & luxury) if you set the utility of these goods to e.g. 1.2x, 1x, and 0.8x its price respectively. POP will first try to fulfill their needs with high utility goods (former life goods) and automatically move up the ladder to goods with a worse utility/price ratio (former luxury goods) once u(m) of the life goods gets lower than ub of the luxury goods due to having bought enough life goods.
If we then also give money itself an utility value (e.g. 0.9 its 'price') and a higher cut-off value (c) of e.g. 300 we will automatically make sure that luxury goods are only bought once some money (here ca. 100) is accumulated.



Now one would have to fix the supply side similarly. In addition to the substitution of input products proposed by Hammer (which can be implemented similar to the substituteability for consumer goods above) one would have to attack two problems:
1) Factories don't breath in Victoria
2) Profit number of a factory are meaningless for the player

The first point means that there is no working overtime for goods in high demand in Victoria. But this overtime working is partially responsible for the flexibility of the supply side in the demand/supply curves.

The second point stems from the player having to pay full price for any imported input goods of a factory but only receiving part of sales income of it. This can cause a factory which shows a profit in the ledger to actually cause a loss for the player since the imported input goods cost more than the taxes earned by the factory. This could cause countries not want to produce goods which could be sold with a profit artificially reducing supply for that product. It also makes any attempt at automatically determing "overtime" work for a factory fruitless. But I don't know an easy fix.


OK, to summarize. From showing a few shortcomings of Hammers paper we went on to see a possible way of implementing an utility-based demand in Victoria and finally reached supply side, which has less problems than demand side but those seem more difficult to solve.

Next one please ;-)
 
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Hammer54

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Thank you for your input

Good comments WoMOS


WoMOS said:
Concerning its contents it could use a little bit of improvement. Let's start
Equation (2) on page 6 is wrong since as you later point out in the second part factories can't substitute input whereas according to the equation 100% substituteability would exists. A more correct version of the equation would replace the (X1+X2+X3) with 1 representing the fixed input bundle.

Point taken. I've tried to explain what you are commenting on in the text, but in mathematical terms, you are correct.


WoMOS said:
What is not mentioned in equation (3) is that profit normally is income - variable costs - fixed cost. Only in Victoria fixed costs = 0. This should have consequences for the supply curves, although I haven't though much about that.

Fixed cost in Victoria is covered by the actual construction cost of RGO's and factories. Also, there are no important consequences for the supply curves as a result of this, since the fixed cost is normally only used to consider short term economic problems.


WoMOS said:
The following demand vs. supply analysis is IMHO utterly fruitless since it is assuming a normally shaped demand curve. But demand in Victoria is completely inflexible since ceterum paribus it only depends on the entry in the pop-needs files. So demand is a line parallel to the x-axis and therefor supply side has to do _all_ the work to bring the market to an equilibrium.

Actually, you are kind of wrong. I agree that it is fruitless to discuss marginal price elasticity's, as you area implying, but the demand curves are not completely inflexible. As income changes for a POP, it ability to purchase consumer goods change as well. With price changes there is always an income effect, implying that demand curves are decreasing with the prices. This is actually a credit to the simplified model Paradox is using.


WoMOS said:
Part 2 is all correct, at least as far as I can tell, and along the lines I also thought, i.e. you need to include utility into the model to avoid grossly overpriced goods to drain the pockets of the populace. But it is IMHO mostly a repetition of textbook material instead of a real analysis of how an utility based economy can be modeled in a game like this. That needs an analysis of what is implementable.

Well, I've tried to include utility in the model, but as you say it is in such general terms that ii seems like "repetition of textbook". I'll try to be more specific. About what is implementable, well.. np. I can at least program this for Excel, if I get all the information i need.


WoMOS said:
The problem with modeling an utility-based economy is
- you need to calculate the 'm's in equation 4

The m's in equation (4) needs to be set parameters like in the .txt files Paradox is using now. The problem comes when you want do discuss substitutes and complementary goods, which leads to a discussion on what kind of functions to use. Also, there probably needs to be an exponent for each consumer goods as well.


WoMOS said:
- you would have to remember for each POP how much of which good he has already bought and how this influenced his future demand of that good. Both are too time consuming to calculate every game day.

This might be one of the major problems. some home computer systems may have enough to calculate as it is. :)


WoMOS said:
It is not fair since POPs in poorer countries will have the utility of goods reduced by POPs of the same class in richer countries which buy more of the goods. This could be helped by having one array per POP class and country but that could already be a little much to store in a savefile.

This might not be as big a problem as it might seem. Rich people in say... Panjab.. did not, and should not have the same welfare level as rich people in London.


WoMOS said:
This should give a much smoother behaviour of the demand side than what we see today in Victoria. First, If the price of a good climbs it is bought less, second, due to decreasing utility not everyone buy as much as possible from the good with the highest utility/price ration.

This is the main point of introducing a utility function for POP's.


WoMOS said:
Enhancements: Instead of simply setting utility=price you could do away with the seperate classes of goods (life, everyday & luxury) if you set the utility of these goods to e.g. 1.2x, 1x, and 0.8x its price respectively. POP will first try to fulfill their needs with high utility goods (former life goods) and automatically move up the ladder to goods with a worse utility/price ratio (former luxury goods) once u(m) of the life goods gets lower than ub of the luxury goods due to having bought enough life goods.
If we then also give money itself an utility value (e.g. 0.9 its 'price') and a higher cut-off value (c) of e.g. 300 we will automatically make sure that luxury goods are only bought once some money (here ca. 100) is accumulated.

I would aim to accomplish this by making life goods a Giffen commodity, everyday goods normal goods, and luxury goods luxury goods. It would serve the same purpose as what you state above,


WoMOS said:
OK, to summarize. From showing a few shortcomings of Hammers paper we went on to see a possible way of implementing an utility-based demand in Victoria and finally reached supply side, which has less problems than demand side but those seem more difficult to solve.


Hey.. Good to see anyone actually reading and taking an interest. Most discussions in the formum is dedicated to bugs, events, whining and so on. Constructive discussion on the economic model in Victoria is not common (which is why I posted this in this section of the forum :)). I thank you for your input WoMOS. Based on you comments, I have to do some revising of the paper. I seriously doubt that a utility function will be introduced in victoria, but maybe it is possible to nudge Paradox in the right direction with regard to later releases.
 

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Damn, I knew we should have made sure that Andy,HRE stayed a beta tester (after EU2). The chap is a professional economist and always had the most interesting observations (and ideas) on the game.

Alas, he was sacrificed to public opinion as the betazoids "official" scape goat for EU2's failings. Dismal science, indeed. :D
 

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Hammer54 said:
Hey.. Good to see anyone actually reading and taking an interest. Most discussions in the formum is dedicated to bugs, events, whining and so on. Constructive discussion on the economic model in Victoria is not common (which is why I posted this in this section of the forum :)). I thank you for your input WoMOS. Based on you comments, I have to do some revising of the paper. I seriously doubt that a utility function will be introduced in victoria, but maybe it is possible to nudge Paradox in the right direction with regard to later releases.

Hey, don't worry I'm finding both the paper as well as the thread quite interesting and I don't even own Victoria. (would be nice to know what the designers think of the ideas)
 

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Hammer54 said:
Fixed cost in Victoria is covered by the actual construction cost of RGO's and factories.
Well, amortization is not the only fixed cost, but on Victoria's level of simplification you have the better arguments. Any inclusion of fixed costs would overcomplicate the model.


Also, there are no important consequences for the supply curves as a result of this, since the fixed cost is normally only used to consider short term economic problems.
At least it causes strange results when trying to calculate marginal return (marginal return is more or less constant!). But you are probably right concerning supply effects.


... but the demand curves are not completely inflexible. As income changes for a POP, it ability to purchase consumer goods change as well. With price changes there is always an income effect, implying that demand curves are decreasing with the prices.
You are right as long as the whole amount of goods purchased is concerned. The aggregated demand curve behaves 'correctly' according to some magically aggregated price. But this does not hold for the individual goods. Take the current situation with Opium. Demand stays zero independent from the price. Or take any life good locate on the very left of the list, e.g. grain. Its demand is constant over a very, very long price range. Only when grain alone manages to use up all income, demand will fall. So goods on the beginning of the needs list have a constant demand and goods on the end of the demand list also (namely 0). Only few goods, where some POPs are rich enough to just afford them (let's call them marginal goods) have a demand which reacts on price changes. And even there the reaction is quite inflexible because POPs will only react once the price rises higher than the money they earn. Even worse, most of the time the demand for such a good will depend more on the price of the goods 'below' it than on its own price.
So it is IMHO quite safe to generalize that the 0% substituteability we see in Victoria does not cause some degree of price inflexibility but a really fixed demand for most goods. Thus demand is a parallel to the x-axis. Edit: a parallel to the y-axis of course.

The m's in equation (4) needs to be set parameters like in the .txt files Paradox is using now. The problem comes when you want do discuss substitutes and complementary goods, which leads to a discussion on what kind of functions to use. Also, there probably needs to be an exponent for each consumer goods as well.
In my proposal I tried to avoid all those discussions on price flexibility, substitutability etc. that economists like because they don't have a function to calculate utility with. But Victoria is a model so we can just postulate an utility function and use that directly. Admittedly the utility function does not solve the problem of different degrees of substitutability but I think for a first approach 100% substitutability is a nice assumption and it can be fixed later if it should manage to lead to grossly absurd behaviour (like farmers buying nothing else than airoplanes).


I would aim to accomplish this by making life goods a Giffen commodity, everyday goods normal goods, and luxury goods luxury goods. It would serve the same purpose as what you state above,
Yes, that could also work. But I'm a computer scientist and like to abstract everything in as few formulas as possible with few (or better no) special cases. The utility function seems to me to be such a function you can solve a lot of problems with without classifying goods into groups according to their income elasticity.

On a side note: I don't think that all life goods would be Giffen. As far as I understand only the most cheap of them (or at least of all the foodstuff) should be Giffen. Also adding Giffen goods to the model could drastically increase its instability while we are trying to make it more stable. (For all those that don't know, a Giffen good is the (mystical) good which increases in demand as the price increases.)

I seriously doubt that a utility function will be introduced in victoria, but maybe it is possible to nudge Paradox in the right direction with regard to later releases.
It is not that much of a change, as I (hopefully) have shown in my last post. And it would probably make balancing things easier. Currently the Victoria developers try to force an partially unstable system into equilibrium instead of desiging a system which will move into the direction of equilibrium itself.
But we can still hope for a better economy in the next game to include one.

If you do an Excel sheet for your model I'll do an (OpenOffice Calc) sheet for mine, too.
 
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WoMOS said:
If you do an Excel sheet for your model I'll do an (OpenOffice Calc) sheet for mine, too.

Interesting proposal WoMOS. You actualy gave my pride a kick in the side there. :) I'll see what I can do. I it will be simpler to start with profit maximizing the factories, but first i'm going to revise my "paper".

There are some fundamental problems that needs to be adressed before I can create the model mentioned above.

- What are the determinants of the WM prices?
- What are the "input fields" for factories?
- Factories use inputs from your nations stockpile, but uses the WM price to calculate the profit. The problem is that the intermediates are bought twice, first you buy it for the stockpile, which then is used by the factories. Factories pay "someone" for the goods they use, but not your nation, which reduces either the factories or your income more than it sould. If factories had pay'd you for the goods, thigs would be in balance, or if they had purchesed it directly form the WM, things would be in balance. How does this affect "input fields" and "output fields"? Would it affect the WM price?
- What are the "output fields" for the profit and the yield?
- What possibilities are there for rerouting income flows in Victoria?

I think that before we try to build an actual model, we need to get a map of all the input flows. I'll start on one after I've revised my paper. Again, tnx for your input WoMOS.
 

WoMOS

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Hammer54 said:
- Factories use inputs from your nations stockpile, but uses the WM price to calculate the profit. The problem is that the intermediates are bought twice, first you buy it for the stockpile, which then is used by the factories. Factories pay "someone" for the goods they use, but not your nation, which reduces either the factories or your income more than it sould. If factories had pay'd you for the goods, thigs would be in balance, or if they had purchesed it directly form the WM, things would be in balance. How does this affect "input fields" and "output fields"? Would it affect the WM price?

I experimented a bit and I think the goods and money flow of Victoria look as shown in the following picture:
vic1.gif


As you can see there is no direct payment of factories for their input goods. Worse, if you sell things on the WM you only get n% of the money (n being your weighted average taxrate) since the payments for goods flow 3 are redirected via the POPs (4 & 5).

Experiment setup:
1) Start Vic, best with a savegame;
2) Let it run for some days to reach a stable state
3) Note down the taxesfrom the budget screen as they are directly related to the POP income.
4) Set all goods to export and with a very high treshhold (so no export actually occurs)
5) Run for a day, taxes and therefore the POP income decreases (to what I called the 'Magic Money Source' in the figure, it is probably the basic income from misc.txt).
6) Disable all factories (i.e. "close" them)
7) Run for two days. The POP income didn't change (so it is not related to factory work) and also the country income didn't change except for no longer needing to import goods. Therefore the factories do not pay money for the input they take from the country, but they take their input goods from the countries stockpile (hence the end of imports once the factories are closed).
8) Disable a few RGOs. The POP & country income doesn't change, so RGOs have no direct money flow to/from country or POPs.
9) Reenable exports (by setting the threshold well below the available stockpile of a few goods).
10) Run for one day (and not more!) and note the highly increased POP income. So POPs only earned money from goods if those are sold to the world market.

Consequences:
This imbalance in who pays for imports and who earns from exports has of course a few consequences for gameplay:
A) Profit of a factory does not mean the country runs a profit from operating the factory.
B) Factories give the most profit for a country (i.e. the player) if they use locally produced goods as input.
C) POPs earn not only the profit of a factory but they also 'earn' the costs of the input goods. Want to raise your POPs' income? Import from the WM and the export it again. The POPs retain 100%-taxrate% of the money involved. (Not really recommened!)
D) The costs of infrastructure/colony buildup and POP promotion vary hugely depending on wether the necessary goods are produced locally or imported.
Example: Railroad needs 10 Steel, Steel costs 20Pounds.
Variant 1: Buy on WM => Costs of 200Pounds
Variant 2: Complete local production => Cost = taxrate% * 200Pounds = normally < 100 Pounds
Many people would say that cost of variant 2 is 0, but that is not true since you could have sold the 10 Steel on the WM. So the so called 'opportunity costs' are what you would get for selling them. And that is exactly the taxrate times the price.

Especially D) will typically lead to an industry buildup where every country produces anything instead of producing what a country is best in and importing the rest. IMHO this modells a Pre-Adam Smith era but not Victorian age.

Improvement:
A better flow schema would be like the following: Cleaned up Victoria flows. Now every flow of goods has an appropriate flow of money. Also POPs now only earn the profit of a factory not the input factor cost. "Imports" in the budget screen would have to be replaced with a "Trade Balance" entry and a new "Cost of stock buildup" entry would be needed there which would be 0 unless some factory's/RGO's products would not be exported. Factories with profit would really make a profit for the country.

I don't expect this to be realized in Vic because it probably needs quite some rebalancing of countries and POP income.

(BTW, Although not included in the figure the model still needs the Magic Money source and the Interior Usage Money Sink, since balancing a closed loop model (i.e. all money somehow flows back) would probably be quite difficult in an expanding economy.)

BTW2: How do you attach things (like the two figures above) to posts? Or is that an IE-only feature?
 
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