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EGaffney

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From all I've read from the devs, they have come up with a very nice and realistic economic model! Here's my summary, and a proposal to fix a potential problem with the model; namely, that it could drain cash balances out of the economy because POPs transact more units of goods when prices are high. Thanks to EntropyAvatar for their posts that helped push me on to think about this, by the way.

First, recall V2 if you've played it: every day, excess production was dumped in the sea, and excess demand was unfulfilled and forgotten about next day. Not so realistic. Furthermore, to dispel any notion that a price and quantity can be solved with supply and demand curves, the problem is demand curves. You'd need to model different willingness to buy across POPs and solve a bunch of complex consumption functions every day. (lachek suggests buildings lay off workers when prices are too low, so I think supply curves do actually matter.) Thus, any good system requires a bunch of abstractions.

The V3 system seems to work according to the following metaphor. Imagine a giant storehouse in the middle of the goods market. It is the buyer and seller of last resort, providing liquidity during temporary excess of supply or demand. This means demand always gets fulfilled every day, as long as the market is in long-term balance. During long-term imbalance, you have other systems like shortages, so I ignore this case in the discussion.

I think this metaphor of storage and warehousing works better than the alternative of imaginary buyers and sellers outside the system. First, those excess orders aren't actually making anyone happy or sad. Second, the outside participants would bring the market toward equilibrium price, which isn't happening in the game economy.

One non-obvious feature of the metaphor is that the flow of goods must be matched by a flow of money in the opposite direction. The imaginary storehouse tends to buy when there is excess supply and prices are low, and to sell when prices are high. Concrete example: imagine POPs and buildings always buy the same amount of grain for their needs, but the factories sell more during excess supply periods with low prices. Even if the goods market is in long-term balance of quantities, and so the market price is long-term around the base price, factories are earning less on average than the base price.

Therefore, I think that over time, goods market liquidity is draining money out of the rest of the economy, at a rate proportionate to the day-to-day volatility of production. Of course, this is the business model of any market-maker or commercial liquidity provider. However, it seems that no POP actually receives this flow of money; after all, the storehouse is even more imaginary than the rest of the concepts in this WIP computer game. I don't know if, in practice, this is proving an issue in the V3 economy for devs. In principle, it will drain wealth from POPs over time.

The neatest remedy I can think of is to assume that each building is doing its own storage during periods of excess supply, and selling onto the market during excess demand. You model this by giving buildings a daily income based on the number of actually satisfied buy orders, and not own day-to-day production. Allocation could be proportionate to shares of buy orders in the market. This way, cash does not leave the market, because buyers and sellers each receive cash of value Price * Demand each day. Of course, there are other potential remedies like the V2 system of liquidity injections through buildings.

Notwithstanding the long-term drain of cash, the storehouse is effectively stabilising the economy through cash injections and removals. So V3 does actually have monetary policy!
 
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mikhail321

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I really like OP suggestion, and I agree that the decision to abstract the stockpiles does not necessarily entail that we can’t have a closed monetary system. However, I have to point out that OP may be trying to solve an issue that is not there.
The drain of liquidity that may happen as described by OP will result in deflation, which will drive prices below the base price and the clearing warehouse will start injecting cash into the economy, so the system effectively balances itself. It will also work the other way round and prevent excessive cash generation above economy growth rates.
As mentioned by the OP, there are likely to be other cash sources, e.g. I think the devs mentioned that dependents will have a small income separate from wages, and it is quite likely it will not be accompanied by any material production.
Overall, balancing a closed monetary system requires quite an effort, so the devs need some tangible gameplay benefit apart from pleasing a bunch of economy nerds including myself. If they don’t plan to model a banking system and fiat currencies, I personally don’t see any strong reasons to insist on a closed cash cycle. Maybe if they plan to do a Vic3 2.0 someway down the road… But it’s not very likely as the market system seems very fundamental to the way the game runs.
 

EGaffney

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Hopefully you're right, but if the lower wealth and cash lead to a lower level of production to stabilise the system, as suggested by lachek, then the volatility drain may repeat itself at the new level - I think, having not seen the actual game, of course.
 

Sbrubbles

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Too high or low PoP wealth can be dealt with by simply increasing or reducing buy orders. Also, cash balances are irrelevant because PoPs don't need cash to make transactions, they just need income (presumably, buy orders are determined by income and some function of their existing wealth)
 

GrafKeks

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Too high or low PoP wealth can be dealt with by simply increasing or reducing buy orders. Also, cash balances are irrelevant because PoPs don't need cash to make transactions, they just need income (presumably, buy orders are determined by income and some function of their existing wealth)
Depends what kind of orders are used tbh.
 

alexti

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The V3 system seems to work according to the following metaphor. Imagine a giant storehouse in the middle of the goods market. It is the buyer and seller of last resort, providing liquidity during temporary excess of supply or demand. This means demand always gets fulfilled every day, as long as the market is in long-term balance. During long-term imbalance, you have other systems like shortages, so I ignore this case in the discussion.

I think this metaphor of storage and warehousing works better than the alternative of imaginary buyers and sellers outside the system. First, those excess orders aren't actually making anyone happy or sad. Second, the outside participants would bring the market toward equilibrium price, which isn't happening in the game economy.
In some way it's not even entirely imaginary. It's fairly close to the real world. Typically commodities aren't traded as instant exchange. Instead it looks more like producers put offers to deliver X of certain product at price Y at date Z and buyers put similar orders to buy. If there is an imbalance, it doesn't means that the producers are stuck with the goods they can't sell - instead they know that they need to reduce production for a certain period (or in opposite case, to increase production if commodity is in demand). Depending on industry and goods the trade off between adjusting the production and storing the goods can be different. To facilitate that, there would also be a traders who might be participating without actually consuming or producing anything, but rather taking a risk in hope of making a profit on price difference.

Of course, this also only applies for the case where imbalances are transient.

One non-obvious feature of the metaphor is that the flow of goods must be matched by a flow of money in the opposite direction. The imaginary storehouse tends to buy when there is excess supply and prices are low, and to sell when prices are high. Concrete example: imagine POPs and buildings always buy the same amount of grain for their needs, but the factories sell more during excess supply periods with low prices. Even if the goods market is in long-term balance of quantities, and so the market price is long-term around the base price, factories are earning less on average than the base price.

Therefore, I think that over time, goods market liquidity is draining money out of the rest of the economy, at a rate proportionate to the day-to-day volatility of production. Of course, this is the business model of any market-maker or commercial liquidity provider. However, it seems that no POP actually receives this flow of money; after all, the storehouse is even more imaginary than the rest of the concepts in this WIP computer game. I don't know if, in practice, this is proving an issue in the V3 economy for devs. In principle, it will drain wealth from POPs over time.
I am thinking that instead of this wealth disappearing, it should be distributed to the capitalists (representing exchanges, traders etc...). For simplicity, perhaps to all capitalist pops evenly. Alternatively, it could be distributed to the investment pools.
 
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mikhail321

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I am thinking that instead of this wealth disappearing, it should be distributed to the capitalists (representing exchanges, traders etc...)
I was thinking about shopkeepers, as they are omnipresent and should be the main stockpile holder. They can also represent Vic2 artisans tinkering to produce goods in short supply. However, then you making the cash system closed and need other ways to inject liquidity, like banking and fiat currencies. Gold mining is hardly adequate as it is not linked to price dynamics, and so is impossible to balance, and it tends to stay in some pops’ and government coffers without making its way to the market, as we have seen in Vic2
 

alexti

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I was thinking about shopkeepers, as they are omnipresent and should be the main stockpile holder. They can also represent Vic2 artisans tinkering to produce goods in short supply. However, then you making the cash system closed and need other ways to inject liquidity, like banking and fiat currencies. Gold mining is hardly adequate as it is not linked to price dynamics, and so is impossible to balance, and it tends to stay in some pops’ and government coffers without making its way to the market, as we have seen in Vic2
Yeah, shopkeepers would work too (or both). From point of view of realism it would really be spread across many pops and industries, but on the system level it's more important that some pops get it rather than which ones in particular.

Some mechanism to inject liquidity will be needed and it's a good thing. They historically appeared for a good reason, so if the game can reproduce real-world problems it will also need real-world solution :) This also opens potential to expand the system (like with financial markets), perhaps in some future DLC.
 
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