The value of synthetic fuel plants for nations with access to fuel and rubber

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Sunforged General

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A good example is France, France has access to its own rubber, and has access to endless American oil. But if you expect your war with Germany to last a long time (past 1945), is it worth it to build synthetic fuel plants, do they pay for them selves quick enough with not having to constantly buy oil? Another benefit is not having your convoys sunk, because you aren't importing anything.
 

blahmaster6k

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No. Every synthetic refinery built is one fewer factory, either civilian or military. More than that, actually, since refineries cost more to build than a civilian factory. They don't provide enough fuel to be worth it compared to buying more oil, and require you to research extra expensive synthetic technology. They're a last resort for when you know you won't be able to import fuel, and never worth it to build otherwise.
 
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Sunforged General

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No. Every synthetic refinery built is one fewer factory, either civilian or military. More than that, actually, since refineries cost more to build than a civilian factory. They don't provide enough fuel to be worth it compared to buying more oil, and require you to research extra expensive synthetic technology. They're a last resort for when you know you won't be able to import fuel, and never worth it to build otherwise.
But considering they replace your long term, infinite cost of buying oil, eventually the refineries have to pay for them selves no?
 

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From a rubber perspective At best a refinery can produce 5 rubber (after investing research time), a portion of which will be exported unless you’re in closed economy.

for a cheaper price and the same building slot you could’ve built a civilian factory, which could buy 8 rubber. The fuel you gain from synthetics isn’t all that great either from what I understand
 
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myzael

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It's ironic how people complain they're not worth the effort when with some investment Germany can be totally self-sufficient in terms of rubber and have significantly more freedom in terms of their fuel (synth fuel is not affected by exports, mind you). Something that should be realistically impossible.
 
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It's ironic how people complain they're not worth the effort when with some investment Germany can be totally self-sufficient in terms of rubber and have significantly more freedom in terms of their fuel (synth fuel is not affected by exports, mind you). Something that should be realistically impossible.

To be fair Germany has a +2 rubber per synthetic refinery focus.
 
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SophieX

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A good example is France, France has access to its own rubber, and has access to endless American oil.

France do not have any core-states with rubber; all the "French" rubber comes from the non-European colonies via ship.

I really don't like any dependencies on resource-shipping, if you are not the US or UK.

But if you expect your war with Germany to last a long time (past 1945), is it worth it to build synthetic fuel plants, do they pay for them selves quick enough with not having to constantly buy oil? Another benefit is not having your convoys sunk, because you aren't importing anything.

In this case ( war > 1945 ) I would try to go for rubber-autarky as a minimum.
 

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It's ironic how people complain they're not worth the effort when with some investment Germany can be totally self-sufficient in terms of rubber and have significantly more freedom in terms of their fuel (synth fuel is not affected by exports, mind you). Something that should be realistically impossible.
Germany has difficulty importing rubber. If it could just import it, nobody would bother with synthetic plants.
And yes, German fuel supply isn`t that great, even if realistically inaccessible to it middle eastern oil is taken into equation.

If Germany builds 44 refineries, at 1941 tech, and 1943 synth oil tech and rubber focus, that is equivalent to ~80 oil, and 360 rubber, 270 usable. for not-Germany reduce rubber by 1/3.

importing this amount, would cost you 44 CIC. Building 44 synth is equal to 60 CIC assuming you import right away, and their build power isn`t used. You can potentially earn 10 CIC from your allies importing your rubber, but you are still at a loss, even as Germany. Not-Germany, 246 rubber, 184 usable, so 33 CIC to import oil and rubber, and 7 potentially could be earned from export of refineries.

In best-case scenario, Germany loses 10 CIC on that deal, any other country loses at least 20 CIC, in 44 refineries, so Germany loses 0.23 CIC on every refinery at 1941 tech, and other countries 0.45 CIC on refinery, in best-case scenario.

On top of losing on every refinery, you also have to pay 7-9*127 base days in research, for the privilege, roughly 2.5 years of one tech slot.

It is a good deal for Germany, because it`s realistic import capacity for oil is ~160 with middle-eastern oil, or close to 100 without, assuming you didn`t kill Italy to reduce competition, so equivalent of 80 oil from refineries is huge, and thanks to focuses it doesn`t lose as much. Losing 15-20-30 CIC is not big deal Germany, since 220->190 CIC in 1941 is incomparable to not having air force, and mobile infantry.
 
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Crixus

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No. Every synthetic refinery built is one fewer factory, either civilian or military. More than that, actually, since refineries cost more to build than a civilian factory. They don't provide enough fuel to be worth it compared to buying more oil, and require you to research extra expensive synthetic technology. They're a last resort for when you know you won't be able to import fuel, and never worth it to build otherwise.

There are of course exceptions; USA need rubber refineries for their airforce.
 
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blahmaster6k

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There are of course exceptions; USA need rubber refineries for their airforce.

Only if Japan takes Singapore, Dutch East Indies, and Ceylon. As a USA player, it's pretty much your number 1 job to ensure that this doesn't happen. In single player it's pretty much impossible for AI Japan to take a player-defended Singapore. In MP, it's more likely to fall, but it's still far from easy to take with proper defenses.

EDIT: If japan does take the rubber and forces the USA to build synthetics, the allies are probably screwed. The USA having to go to export focus or Limited Exports to feed its air force production can be disastrous for the UK, USSR, and other allies.
 

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The OP's question is a relevant one, as I thought about it myself.

My economic tests concluded a few things.

1) Even with a +2 to rubber from a focus, they don't pay off in enough time to matter unless you close your trade. They will eventually pay off, but we're talking several years. And at that point, you could have invested that IC into something else that might win the war sooner.

2) The research cost is substantial if you boost both fuel and rubber.

3) The factory slots you burn on synthetic plants are an opportunity cost that matters a lot in longer games. So, even if you are focusing on the long game (which makes sense in this scenario), you still have to weigh the "savings" in import costs with the factory slots you give up.

4) If you think you might run out of rubber to import (due to Japan stealing it or whatever), a preemptive rubber building program can save you some heartache. The last thing you want is 100 MIC on planes grinding to a halt for 70 days while you build synthetic plants in an emergency.

5) Synthetic fuel, in a historical game, is ususally not worth spamming for itself. Due to how Germany can import from the Middle East, and due to how easily Japan can occupy oil, there's no reason to spam synthetic plants just for fuel. They can provide a nice bump, but nothing mandatory.
 
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Secret Master

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You hit the mark!

It's happened to me before. As the Soviets. In MP. In 1944. :eek:

The Axis took my last port, denying me the ability to import rubber. I was still getting some over land from India, but not nearly enough. I still had coastline, so I could build level 1 port somewhere, but I just figured they'd invade that, too with either the PARA or more Romanian MAR. So, I was looking at building a bunch of synthetic plants.

The loss of the port also hurt my steel trade. I had to swap from Export Focus to Limited Exports. It was a mess.

What the Axis didn't know was that I had already researched rubber techs, and I had a ton of IC techs in place since it was late game. So, I just built a synthetic rubber industry from scratch in about 50 days to cover my rubber needs. It hurt, but the aircraft production lines kept their efficiency until the rubber was turned back on. :)

The joke was on me, though. It turned out that the invasion of Arkhangelsk was the last gasp of a dying Axis. Japan was stonewalled in Siberia, the Red Army was marching into Bucharest to steal the oil, and the force I sent north to reclaim the port actually took it back before we finished the synthetic plants. :rolleyes:

A photograph was taken of Stalin during the crisis and circulated among the United Nations.

1595961848928.png


The Axis threw in the towel at the end of that session, so I never even got to make that much use of those plants.
 
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Alpha2518

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Only if Japan takes Singapore, Dutch East Indies, and Ceylon. As a USA player, it's pretty much your number 1 job to ensure that this doesn't happen. In single player it's pretty much impossible for AI Japan to take a player-defended Singapore. In MP, it's more likely to fall, but it's still far from easy to take with proper defenses.

EDIT: If japan does take the rubber and forces the USA to build synthetics, the allies are probably screwed. The USA having to go to export focus or Limited Exports to feed its air force production can be disastrous for the UK, USSR, and other allies.

I would argue rather then being screwed, the Allies simply need to reorganize their war economics. I.E someone like britiain takes the rubber and then makes the allied air force, lend-lease to each other as required for other equipment. Specialized economies and production, the Axis is still doomed and the Allies don't have to be doomed by the USA trying to make itself an air force after SE Asia is taken.
 

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In what way will they pay off?

You will eventually save CIC on imports that equals the cost of the synthetic plants you build.

You figure the cost of the synthetic plants, then compare it to the rubber they give you (not total rubber, but the rubber you get at the current trade law), and compute that against the CIC required to import the rubber over time.

Let me give an example:

Let's take the Soviet Union with 1939 IC techs and synthetic rubber techs.

hoi4_229.png


Okay, so at those techs, in Moscow (a state with 80% infrastructure), 15 CIC generate 189 construction speed, which will take 76.71 days to complete (which, in HOI4, is 77 days) given a construction cost of 14500.

That's 15 CIC per day, though, so we need to break that down to 1 CIC per day for comparison purposes, since 1 CIC will generate 8 rubber per day for imports. So, 1 CIC per day will generate 12.6 construction speed (189 construction speed / 15 CIC). At that speed, it will take 1,151 days to complete (14,500 cost / 12.6 construction speed instead of 189 construction speed).

Okay, so it takes 1 CIC 1151 days to finish the synthetic plant. That 1 CIC could just buy 8 rubber for 1151 days.

But....

... At 1939 techs, you only get 3 rubber. So, even when that 1 CIC finishes the synthetic plant, it's not as efficient as buying 8 rubber.

But...

... Unless your economy is closed, you are also exporting that rubber.

So, in our example, the Soviet Union is sitting on Export focus, so that 3 rubber really equals 1.5 rubber per day. So, we need to multiply that time to build the synthetic plant by 5.3 (due to the difference between 8 rubber for 1 CIC and 1.5 rubber for 1 CIC) to give us the time it would take the synthetic rubber plant to pay for itself.

That's 6,138 days. o_O

So, yes, it will eventually pay for itself. Just not by 1945.

This is also modified again if someone buys your exported rubber. If 100% of your exported rubber is purchased, you don't have to worry about the rubber you "lose" from exports. In that case, we redo the math with 3 rubber (since all rubber is being used or bought). That's a 2.66 increase in the 1151 days due to dividing the 8 rubber you get from purchases by the 3 rubber the plant produces and sells. That gives us 3069 days until it pays itself off. So, that's around 8.4 years.

That's still beyond 1945.

But...

... If you get a boost to rubber output via NF and reduce your exports, it changes the math.

If the Soviets got the same NF that Germany does, and if they stepped down to Limited Exports, they are now producing 5 rubber per day per plant at 1939 techs.

If you use or sell 100% of the rubber in this scenario, you are looking at 8 rubber from purchases divided by 5 rubber used or sold from the synthetic plant. That's 1.6 times the 1151 days for 1 CIC to build a synthetic plant, yielding 1841 days to pay it off. That's 5 years.

If you can't sell it all, you need to dump 25% of the output out of the equation. That gives us 5 rubber modified by the 15% you didn't sell, which gives us 3.75 rubber a day. That's 2.13 times the 1151 days you spent 1 CIC to build a synthetic plant, yielding 2455 days to pay off the plant. That's 6.72 years.

Obviously, if you build the plants at 1941 techs (or higher) and research more rubber output sooner (so that the extra output applies from day 1 of the plant being built), the plants pay for themselves sooner. But unless you can use and sell 100% of the output of those plants (at whatever trade law you have), they won't pay for themselves any time during a typical war.

The irony is that Germany and its boost to rubber output, plus being one of the only trading partners for the European Axis, means that it can get those plants to pay for themselves within a reasonable amount of time. No one else really can unless they build very late and research those rubber techs to high levels.

This discussion should also highlight the power of that boost to rubber output that Germany gets. +2 rubber makes a huge difference when it comes to synthetic plants.
 
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