• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

WhiskyGlen

Major
17 Badges
Oct 24, 2013
561
354
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Still the case. I was there, making games for a living for longer than most people here have been alive. Games are made complete then and are made complete now. Only difference is that games are INSANELY more advanced and more complicated than "back in the old days".

As an example, here's a video game I worked on exactly 20 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WgAiAjhqjA

As a comparison, the entire sourcecode for that game is less than the sourcecode for just handling wargoals for EU4.

That is a fair point. Games are far more advanced today. Though I imagine they also have larger development teams in general. Of course, that is not true with a game like Cities: Skylines which I thought I read had like six members. I honestly don't know how some games are created with millions, if not billions of lines of code. My programming skills are very limited.

The DLCs gives some nations a more fun and replayable experience and i like that.

Some, I suppose. But there were already 100+ nations to choose from I would guess.

Art of War was 25% off yesterday at an official retailer and last month on steam.

I mistyped. I meant on sale for 25% of the cost, but then I added the 50%. I should have said 50 or 75% off. That is actually when I decided to buy CKII. It went on sale for a large amount off. Though that was a spur of the moment sale. Had I been looking for it earlier and wanted it, I would have paid full price.

Johans explanation for why there is bugs makes sense. Why they aren't always fixed is a whole another thing entirely.

I know debugging is very difficult. Often times fixing one bug creates multiple new bugs. But a lot of the fixes presented in the game are not even bugs. Just a change in gameplay in general. Some very unnecessary when bugs do exist. I am still not sure why calling allies to war and not having all allies show up as an option when declaring war has not been fixed.



Keep in mind that this game took around two years to make (i think the devs said this) and DLC has been in the making for almost two years. This means twice the dev time for the launch. This also means that the project is a way bigger risk for Paradox and it would also need to cost a lot more.

One company I am super impressed with was CD Project RED. When they released The Witcher in 2007, it had numerous issues to include very poor translation. The game was fixed and re-released as the Enhanced Edition. The upgrade was free to those that had already bought the game. They also later released a director's cut, which was also a free upgrade. In addition, The Witcher II also had DLC and that was all free to people who owned the game. Not saying it was fancy DLC, but they also had good patch support. They are also releasing The Witcher III this May after numerous delays and I am expecting just as strong of support. I don't know for sure, but I think the development time there is around 3-4 years. No idea how they make money to be honest.

Thanks for doing this, someone has to do it.

Yep, they did.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Korsan82

Anadolu beylerbeyi
11 Badges
May 15, 2007
998
126
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
20 years ago I am sure people said the same about computer programs from the 80s. Measured with 20 years' ago standards the game NBA Jam was no more complicated than todays NBA 2k15 for those who developed it.
Comparing two completely different standards with each other is not a good comparision. Sure, games got better. But with that also your tools became better and the working environment in general.

It's like saying building a skyscraper today is as hard as it was 70 years ago.


Btw NBA Jam was awesome.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

the cool guy

Major
83 Badges
Dec 17, 2013
741
221
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Knights of Honor
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
That is a fair point. Games are far more advanced today. Though I imagine they also have larger development teams in general. Of course, that is not true with a game like Cities: Skylines which I thought I read had like six members. I honestly don't know how some games are created with millions, if not billions of lines of code. My programming skills are very limited.

Johan said earlier in this thread (page 2) that they had four testers and five developers on the games DLC.

Some, I suppose. But there were already 100+ nations to choose from I would guess.

Sure but many nations are very similar from a gameplay standpoint. Additionally some DLCs have improved the fun in over 100 nations.

I mistyped. I meant on sale for 25% of the cost, but then I added the 50%. I should have said 50 or 75% off. That is actually when I decided to buy CKII. It went on sale for a large amount off. Though that was a spur of the moment sale. Had I been looking for it earlier and wanted it, I would have paid full price.

Another reason i like the game is because you can always return to it so maybe if you stop playing you can come back and it will be on sale for that price.

I know debugging is very difficult. Often times fixing one bug creates multiple new bugs. But a lot of the fixes presented in the game are not even bugs. Just a change in gameplay in general. Some very unnecessary when bugs do exist. I am still not sure why calling allies to war and not having all allies show up as an option when declaring war has not been fixed.

EU4 still has some unacceptable bugs.

One company I am super impressed with was CD Project RED. When they released The Witcher in 2007, it had numerous issues to include very poor translation. The game was fixed and re-released as the Enhanced Edition. The upgrade was free to those that had already bought the game. They also later released a director's cut, which was also a free upgrade. In addition, The Witcher II also had DLC and that was all free to people who owned the game. Not saying it was fancy DLC, but they also had good patch support. They are also releasing The Witcher III this May after numerous delays and I am expecting just as strong of support. I don't know for sure, but I think the development time there is around 3-4 years. No idea how they make money to be honest.

The Witcher sells really well. Making an RPG without the help of the fans to balance is harder than making a grand strategy game without fans to help balancing i would think.
 

Gunnarr

Field Marshal
37 Badges
Mar 5, 2012
2.941
414
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Hello, I wanted to discuss DLC value versus Expansion value, and i came up with these numbers.

this is copy pasted from another thread

I work at minimum wage, so I maybe value money a little more. I think i am also a little greedy, I hate to spend money. So the benefits of modding is very important to me, and this change is more important to me:

Release prices:

Europa Universalis 3:

EU3: 40 USD
Napoleons Ambition Expansion: 20 USD
In Nomine Expansion: 20 USD
Heir to the Throne Expansion: 20 USD
Divine Wind Expansion: 20 USD
Spritepacks and Music: 16 USD

Total Main Expansions price: $120
Total Buy on Release price: $136
Time spent improving game after release: 1664 days

Europa Universalis 4:

EU4: 40 USD
Pre Order Pack: 7 USD
Conquest of Paradise DLC: 15 USD
Wealth of Nations DLC: 10 USD
Res Republica DLC: 5 USD
Art of War DLC: 20 USD
El Derado DLC: 15 USD

Total Main DLC price: 112 USD

American Dream DLC: 5 USD
Women in History DLC: Free

Conquest of Constantinople Music Pack: 2 USD
Songs of Yuletide Music Pack: Free
Songs of the New World Music Pack: 2 USD
Republican Music Pack: 2 USD
Guns, Drums, and Steel Music Pack: 2.50 USD
Guns, Drums, and Steel Music Pack V2: 2.50 USD
Songs of War Music Pack: 2 USD

Call to Arms Pack: 4 USD

Horsemen of the Cresent Sprite Pack: 2 USD
National Monuments 2 Pack: 2 USD
Conquistadors Unit Pack: 2 USD
Native Americans Unit Pack: 2 USD
Colonial British and French Unit Pack: 2 USD
Muslim Advisor Portraits Pack: 2 USD
Native Americans II Unit Pack: 2 USD
Muslim Ships Unit Pack: 2 USD
Trade Nations Unit Pack: 2 USD
Indian Ships Unit Pack: 2 USD
Indian Subcontinent Unit PAck: 2 USD
Catholic League Unit Pack: 2 USD
Evangelical Union Unit Pack: 2 USD
Elderado Content Pack : 6 USD

Total Main DLC Price: $112
Total Buy on Release Price: $166
Time spent improving game after release: 639 days

---

So, lets compare again.

EU3

Total Main Expansions price: $120
Total Buy on Release price: $136
Time spent improving game after release: 1664 days
Consumer value: 8 cents per day for content

EU4

Total Main DLC Price: $112
Total Buy on Release Price: $166
Time spent improving game after release: 639 days
Consumer value: 25 cents per day for content

---

So, with this stats you can see clearly. If quality of all content is equal, then I have lost over half of my value with the DLC model compared to expansion model. Of course, Paradox probably increased their profits quite a lot as well.

In the quote by Johan, he states that the development team is much larger for EU4, but do not know exact numbers, only gave numbers for first expansion for EU3.

If it is more than double the size of developers, then the price increase is justified, and then perhaps I will feel alright buying EU4, and my older views about DLC will be wrong.
 

FloatingOrb

Major
67 Badges
Mar 15, 2011
647
280
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
im kicking around at 1.5k hours in eu4, Its been great value for me.

Fun fact, this latest game is the first time I have ever played past the 1540s with one of the major euroscums. Time to see what an english great brittain is like.
 

Frederick_Will

Captain
Nov 26, 2014
322
277
I just leave a few thoughts here. If you(ambiguous you, not directed at anyone) bought said DLC that makes a certain part of the game better, but never use it. You can only blame yourself for not using it. Assuming you did what a good consumer does, and looked into what you were buying, you would know what is there and what is not. Now, that is not counting companies/publishers intentionally hiding information to cover up their mistakes.(Rome 2) Allowing you to buy a faulty product.

If someone wants to argue what should be DLC and what should be "free", then that is a debate worth having. If you think the price for what is being offered is not worth what you are getting, then you can wait on buying or not buying it at all. and that is also a debate worth having if you feel it is out of place. I believe Johan said that all future "Expansions" will be $15-$20. With that knowledge in mind, you can only hope that whatever they decide to throw in is worth that minimum price tag.(I would rather have them make a bunch of changes, and look at it objectively, and base a price on that, rather than just throwing things in the pot to try and justify its already set price. Not just now, but future DLC and games.)


As far as gaming in general. The more I look around, the more I see games now a days costing more, but offering less content than their predecessors. They also seem to be half done. Glaring bugs(and Paradox isn't immune to this.) that are left in the game for way too long if they are patched at all. On top of all that, there are companies that make you pay extra, just to get some fairly basic stuff added to the game that should/could of been there from the start.(or small stuff that wouldn't take that long to make)

one can only hope that one day, gaming in general gets better. Until then, I am a fan on waiting a few months or years before you buy something. Maybe by then, bugs will be removed, the game plays like it should, and you get what you think you should out of the game in terms of time and money.
 

Captain Frye

Major
9 Badges
Jan 13, 2012
767
834
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
The problem is not with the price tags. Paradox can charge whatever they want, as long as there are people who buy. My personal issue is that every dlc breaks the game. I bought every single DLC, but sabotaged the last one, because paradox should start making proper playtesting before releasing their product.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Korsan82

Anadolu beylerbeyi
11 Badges
May 15, 2007
998
126
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Hello, I wanted to discuss DLC value versus Expansion value, and i came up with these numbers.

this is copy pasted from another thread

I work at minimum wage, so I maybe value money a little more. I think i am also a little greedy, I hate to spend money. So the benefits of modding is very important to me, and this change is more important to me:

Release prices:

Europa Universalis 3:

EU3: 40 USD
Napoleons Ambition Expansion: 20 USD
In Nomine Expansion: 20 USD
Heir to the Throne Expansion: 20 USD
Divine Wind Expansion: 20 USD
Spritepacks and Music: 16 USD

Total Main Expansions price: $120
Total Buy on Release price: $136
Time spent improving game after release: 1664 days

Europa Universalis 4:

EU4: 40 USD
Pre Order Pack: 7 USD
Conquest of Paradise DLC: 15 USD
Wealth of Nations DLC: 10 USD
Res Republica DLC: 5 USD
Art of War DLC: 20 USD
El Derado DLC: 15 USD

Total Main DLC price: 112 USD

American Dream DLC: 5 USD
Women in History DLC: Free

Conquest of Constantinople Music Pack: 2 USD
Songs of Yuletide Music Pack: Free
Songs of the New World Music Pack: 2 USD
Republican Music Pack: 2 USD
Guns, Drums, and Steel Music Pack: 2.50 USD
Guns, Drums, and Steel Music Pack V2: 2.50 USD
Songs of War Music Pack: 2 USD

Call to Arms Pack: 4 USD

Horsemen of the Cresent Sprite Pack: 2 USD
National Monuments 2 Pack: 2 USD
Conquistadors Unit Pack: 2 USD
Native Americans Unit Pack: 2 USD
Colonial British and French Unit Pack: 2 USD
Muslim Advisor Portraits Pack: 2 USD
Native Americans II Unit Pack: 2 USD
Muslim Ships Unit Pack: 2 USD
Trade Nations Unit Pack: 2 USD
Indian Ships Unit Pack: 2 USD
Indian Subcontinent Unit PAck: 2 USD
Catholic League Unit Pack: 2 USD
Evangelical Union Unit Pack: 2 USD
Elderado Content Pack : 6 USD

Total Main DLC Price: $112
Total Buy on Release Price: $166
Time spent improving game after release: 639 days

---

So, lets compare again.

EU3

Total Main Expansions price: $120
Total Buy on Release price: $136
Time spent improving game after release: 1664 days
Consumer value: 8 cents per day for content

EU4

Total Main DLC Price: $112
Total Buy on Release Price: $166
Time spent improving game after release: 639 days
Consumer value: 25 cents per day for content

---

So, with this stats you can see clearly. If quality of all content is equal, then I have lost over half of my value with the DLC model compared to expansion model. Of course, Paradox probably increased their profits quite a lot as well.

In the quote by Johan, he states that the development team is much larger for EU4, but do not know exact numbers, only gave numbers for first expansion for EU3.

If it is more than double the size of developers, then the price increase is justified, and then perhaps I will feel alright buying EU4, and my older views about DLC will be wrong.

You seem to forget that the staff got increased together with the people buying the game (as Johan said).
So there is absolutely no justification at all. And besides, stop inventing new pricing models like "x cents per day" as that is not how it works. That's how publishers want it to work. You as a customer should not want that.
 

RobRoy3

Recruit
16 Badges
Mar 21, 2001
3.568
798
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
...newly invented pricing models...
I'm missing something. If you're making minimum wage and/or are particularly price sensitive, why on earth would you be buying ANY of the DLCs? The features behind the paywall are usually marginal and can rarely be cost-justified by themselves. Most of us buy the DLCs to support the continued development of the underlying game - the vast majority of new/improved content is now distributed for free with the main patches. Sure, that means some people will be free riders, but enough won't, and enough find it worthwhile to get the extra events, merchants, and what not that lurk behind the paywall.

Actually, why would you be buying any game or expansion new, if you're that price sensitive? They ALL come down in price in less than a year. And, if you're so enamored with the value inherent in EU3 (a great game for its time) it's still available for a song.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Korsan82

Anadolu beylerbeyi
11 Badges
May 15, 2007
998
126
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
I am not price sensitive. I am just not spending money on a failed DLC policy.

It used to be that once you spent money you got full games. Today you get elements of that game. In order to get the complete game you need to buy all the elements, called DLC. Just look at how simplyfied the game was at launch so they could hand in features bit by bit. That's not how it should be, but unfortunately it is like that.

As Gunnar wrote EU3's total cost was 136 Euros while EUIV now is at 166 Euros. Does it offer so much more? Will it deliver so much more once it hits the 200 Euro mark (and it will)?

People just don't realize that they secretly increased the price for the very same game.
 

Korashy

Field Marshal
93 Badges
Jul 15, 2012
4.256
3.739
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
I'm pretty sure the DLC's are also paying for the tons of free patches and continued support the game is getting, because I don't see any Vicky 2 patches flowing out every 1-2 months, with tons of free new features.

Also calling EU III 1600 days of constant improving is pretty wonky. Patches were basically packed into the expansion, which came out once every 1-2 years. There is no way EU III got more development love than IV, not even by a long shot.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Pyske

Second Lieutenant
51 Badges
Jan 10, 2014
192
49
  • King Arthur II
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria 2
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
As Gunnar wrote EU3's total cost was 136 Euros while EUIV now is at 166 Euros. Does it offer so much more? Will it deliver so much more once it hits the 200 Euro mark (and it will)?

People just don't realize that they secretly increased the price for the very same game.

Inflation per year at 3% would mean that they should have increased the price by 20% from 2007 (EU3) to 2013 (EU4). I feel that I get more than €3 in added value and features from EU4 compared to EU3, even adjusting for the changes in average application quality.

And that's assuming similar dev team sizes. In fact, it seems that with the increased size of the dev team, we're getting quite a bargain. Probably because the franchise has grown in popularity, allowing them to better amortize the costs among the player base.
 

Shadowstrike

Terrestrial Liability #168
147 Badges
Mar 17, 2001
2.483
1.651
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Victoria 2
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Ancient Space
  • Cities in Motion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • King Arthur II
  • Impire
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
I think the feeling that the DLCs "aren't worth it" arises from Paradox's noble intention in making the key features free. If you look at everything you're getting (in the free patch + the DLC), it's clearly worth the $15 or $20 they charge. But if you're only counting the ability to make client states, or to build stacks all at once, then it doesn't seem worthwhile. Personally, I like what Paradox is doing, and so I'm happy to give them the extra money (particularly as the free patches include a lot that other companies wouldn't give for free), but I can definitely understand why the DLCs don't see worth it.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Korsan82

Anadolu beylerbeyi
11 Badges
May 15, 2007
998
126
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Inflation per year at 3% would mean that they should have increased the price by 20% from 2007 (EU3) to 2013 (EU4). I feel that I get more than €3 in added value and features from EU4 compared to EU3, even adjusting for the changes in average application quality.

And that's assuming similar dev team sizes. In fact, it seems that with the increased size of the dev team, we're getting quite a bargain. Probably because the franchise has grown in popularity, allowing them to better amortize the costs among the player base.

You're saying it yourself. The sales numbers increased, so their income increased. That's enough compensation for an increased team size I think.

And besides: I feel I get dramatically less features in EU4 compared to EU3 and that's also in accordance to a press release from Paradox saying that they will launch games with less features at start. Over time with all the DLCs added you get a full game - And that's exactly what I'm saying. You pay more for a full game.
 

the cool guy

Major
83 Badges
Dec 17, 2013
741
221
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Knights of Honor
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
And besides: I feel I get dramatically less features in EU4 compared to EU3 and that's also in accordance to a press release from Paradox saying that they will launch games with less features at start. Over time with all the DLCs added you get a full game - And that's exactly what I'm saying. You pay more for a full game.

Because EU3 was such a great game at launch that totally wasn't incomplete.
 

WhiskyGlen

Major
17 Badges
Oct 24, 2013
561
354
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
I'm pretty sure the DLC's are also paying for the tons of free patches and continued support the game is getting, because I don't see any Vicky 2 patches flowing out every 1-2 months, with tons of free new features.

Also calling EU III 1600 days of constant improving is pretty wonky. Patches were basically packed into the expansion, which came out once every 1-2 years. There is no way EU III got more development love than IV, not even by a long shot.


Even including the free features does not, in my opinion, make the DLC comparable to the base game. The only exception may be the upcoming Common Sense free features (EU IV 2.0 I think I saw them say). The new rebel mechanics and autonomy system are improvements, but don't justify the prices. The rebel system was virtually unchanged since EUII so it should have been with the base game.
 

WhiskyGlen

Major
17 Badges
Oct 24, 2013
561
354
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Korsan82 said:
And besides: I feel I get dramatically less features in EU4 compared to EU3 and that's also in accordance to a press release from Paradox saying that they will launch games with less features at start.


Do you have link to that press release?
 
  • 1
Reactions:

the cool guy

Major
83 Badges
Dec 17, 2013
741
221
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Knights of Honor
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
Nowhere i claimed that. So stop derailing the discussion.

You kinda implied it when you said that launches are incomplete now and referred to EU3 for when things were better.
EU3 wasn't very complete after 2-3 expansions. Are you saying that EU4 dosen't feel relatively complete if you buy 40-60 dollars of DLC?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.