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WhiskyGlen

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It's well known throughout the gaming world that DLC never holds the same valuation as a game out of the box. For example, a game like Rockband where you spend as much as $2 to purchase an additional song when you get around 80 out of the box for around $60, plus the game itself.

I think the same holds true for a game like EUIV. In fact, I think the value is even less unless you are a hardcore EUIV player. I have purchased Wealth of Nations, Res Republica, Art of War, and El Dorado now. All of them at full price. Unfortunately, none of them have proven to be worth their value at all for me.

The primary reason I paid for Wealth of Nations was due to privateers (which became a waste of $$$ now that I also bought El Dorado). As someone who does not usually experience with other countries and government mechanics, most of the features have gone unused. Same goes with Res Republica. Never have played as a Republic, so other than National Focus, I have found little value in this patch.

Art of War was a bit different. There were a lot of very useful features for myself and probably most like me. Cancelling idea groups, giving up cores, creating marches (I never do it, but I see the value in it), garrison sorties, transfer of sacked provinces, and quick upgrading as well as mothballing fleets are all great features. Unfortunately, as great and as important as all these features are, most of them should have been included with the game to begin with. EU is not a new series. Many of these things have been issues since EUII (and probably the original EU, but I say EUII since I never played the original EU). For example, I know for a fact I was annoyed way back in EUII when an ally would just beat me to a province I want and one they don't need, and because their army beat me there by a day, they got control when it fell. With coring, that has been an issue since game launch day and is not something that should have been paid for. Sometimes a war leader gives you a province you just don't need and can't core. That should have been fixed within the first patch or two. Anyways, the Art of War was a very good DLC. I don't think too many deny that, but is it 40% of the original game cost in value? Not even close.

So I debated and decided to purchase El Dorado. Not because any of the features sounded that great. They did not unless you wanted to play as a South American nation (to which then, this add-on receives some value). However, the nation builder sounded awesome. Especially when I learned it still works with ironman (only way to keep me from cheating by reloading). So I pay the $15, try to create some nations, only to learn that you can't even save your template for your new nations. Can easily spend a couple hours creating a new world map only to lose it because you made one mistake at the beginning (or balanced the map wrong). No way to edit your errors unless you wrote down everything you did. In other words, it's a neat feature, but it's essentially a broken/incomplete feature unless you are only concerned about carving out a single new nation in the world.

To sum it all up, I paid $50 for the full game and have played 183 hours on it. Full game = amazing value. On the other hand, I paid $50 for a few additional features, many of which don't even apply to me. Horrible value.

The best valued expansions/DLC I've had are ones like in Skyrim which are massive (though still pale in value compared to the base game). Older games when you actually bought expansion packs at the store seemed to hold a lot more value as well. I suppose these expansions are necessary in order for Paradox to maintain support for the game so many years after release. But then again, EUII had patches released for years and I don't remember there being paid DLC or add-ons for that (correct me if I am wrong there). I wish companies would stop nickel and diming us and instead release completed products. Either support it for years or don't. But while not as bad as micro transactions (games like Candy Crush should almost be illegal), the value of these updates is minimal.
 
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AurochsAway

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The value of the updates is going to be minimal if you don't use the features in the updates. This shouldn't come as a surprise. The same applies to Skyrim DLCs, absolute waste of money if not used.
 
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thecryptile

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It's not horrible value from Paradox, so much as horrible planning on the OPs part-- as AurochsAway says if you don't use the features you're wasting your money. Also, with the frequent 50-75% off Steam sales there's no good reason for a player on a limited budget to pay full price. Just wait a few weeks and pick it up on sale.
 

GeneralJhon

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It's not horrible value from Paradox, so much as horrible planning on the OPs part-- as AurochsAway says if you don't use the features you're wasting your money. Also, with the frequent 50-75% off Steam sales there's no good reason for a player on a limited budget to pay full price. Just wait a few weeks and pick it up on sale.

Well is not actual 75% off at Steam sale right away. For example Art of War has come out in October i think, and recently with EU IV week it was just 25 %. My bet is wait a year to grab the DLC 75% (Next Black Friday or holiday sale). But yeah, if you are not going to use feature is a waste of money. I Have just bought two only dlc at full price: Art of War (worthy) and el Dorado (quite meh, only bought it for treasure fleet and other feature except nation design), the others one bought it on sales. Just take your shot.
 

WhiskyGlen

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The value of the updates is going to be minimal if you don't use the features in the updates. This shouldn't come as a surprise. The same applies to Skyrim DLCs, absolute waste of money if not used.

The point being that the added features are not that great. A couple features are important, but you can't buy just one feature. It's no different than the original game. There are many features in the original game I probably have not used or rarely have. I have never once tried to colonize Africa. I rarely colonize period. I've never played as 99% of the nations in the game. But the value of the regular game is in all the features that exist period.

It's not horrible value from Paradox, so much as horrible planning on the OPs part-- as AurochsAway says if you don't use the features you're wasting your money. Also, with the frequent 50-75% off Steam sales there's no good reason for a player on a limited budget to pay full price. Just wait a few weeks and pick it up on sale.

I am not on a limited budget. I think you fail to understand that even if I used every feature in these expansions, it still would come nowhere close to equating the value of the original game. Art of War, as I mentioned, was a very very good expansion. But it also cost 40% of the original game. It certainly did not add an additional 40% to the game.

Well is not actual 75% off at Steam sale right away. For example Art of War has come out in October i think, and recently with EU IV week it was just 25 %. My bet is wait a year to grab the DLC 75% (Next Black Friday or holiday sale). But yeah, if you are not going to use feature is a waste of money. I Have just bought two only dlc at full price: Art of War (worthy) and el Dorado (quite meh, only bought it for treasure fleet and other feature except nation design), the others one bought it on sales. Just take your shot.

This is not a game where it's generally possible to use every feature unless you sink 100s of hours into it... more likely 1000s. I have just under 200 hours. I will never use everything from even the original game. The entire point comes down to the fact that DLC is a way for companies to make quick and easy money after a game comes out. Besides microtransactions on cell phone games, the worst company overall is probably EA. I loved The Highlands Course they created for Tiger Woods 2004, and I was shocked when I bought '13 that you could buy that course... for $5! '13 wasn't the only year I seen it.
 
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AurochsAway

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The point being that the added features are not that great. A couple features are important, but you can't buy just one feature. It's no different than the original game. There are many features in the original game I probably have not used or rarely have. I have never once tried to colonize Africa. I rarely colonize period. I've never played as 99% of the nations in the game. But the value of the regular game is in all the features that exist period.

I am not on a limited budget. I think you fail to understand that even if I used every feature in these expansions, it still would come nowhere close to equating the value of the original game. Art of War, as I mentioned, was a very very good expansion. But it also cost 40% of the original game. It certainly did not add an additional 40% to the game.

This is not a game where it's generally possible to use every feature unless you sink 100s of hours into it... more likely 1000s. I have just under 200 hours. I will never use everything from even the original game. The entire point comes down to the fact that DLC is a way for companies to make quick and easy money after a game comes out. Besides microtransactions on cell phone games, the worst company overall is probably EA. I loved The Highlands Course they created for Tiger Woods 2004, and I was shocked when I bought '13 that you could buy that course... for $5! '13 wasn't the only year I seen it.

It's a cliche by now, but you don't have to buy them if you don't think the features are worth it. The percentage point is interesting, and accurate, but is belied by the assumption that features~price should scale linearly. Perhaps it sometimes should, but things don't tend to scale linearly. Smaller products usually cost more per part than large ones, something not limited to DLCs, or even video games.
 
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The OP is not taking into account all the free stuff that comes with every major DLC, updated for free into the base game, all of which would be bundled into an expansion and would have to be paid for in the old days.
 
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Zander

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I think you fail to understand that even if I used every feature in these expansions, it still would come nowhere close to equating the value of the original game. Art of War, as I mentioned, was a very very good expansion. But it also cost 40% of the original game. It certainly did not add an additional 40% to the game.

Yeah, but you're setting an awfully high bar there - presumably MOST games you play don't compare in playtime/enjoyment to EU. That doesn't mean they're are all wastes of money.
Basically, if I buy a $5 sandwich and it's the best sandwich I ever had, that doesn't mean that all other $5 sandwiches (or $2 appetizers, or $20 meals) become a totally overpriced. I just got a really good deal on that sandwich.
 
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The OP is not taking into account all the free stuff that comes with every major DLC, updated for free into the base game, all of which would be bundled into an expansion and would have to be paid for in the old days.

This. Also if people didnt buy the expansions we wouldnt get any of the free patches or have gotten more than 3-4 patches or similar on the base game. The expansions pay for expansion stuff, free stuff and extra patching you cant only view one of these as an isolated thing. Ofcourse this also means that the value of the stuff you unlock by buying the DLC will be a bit less than it would be if there was no free stuff. On the other hand we gain the advantage that we can chose which DLC we want and do not have to buy them in sequence.
 

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Paradox used to have the "big expansion" method for dlc. They abandoned it for the more focused dlc method as they thought that saving the general improvements for free updates, while having the more "optional" improvements be included as smaller expansions instead would be a better method. I still get overall features that improve most aspects of the game for free but I can still pick and choose which dlc I want that tend to suit only certain play styles.
 
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Paradox used to have the "big expansion" method for dlc. They abandoned it for the more focused dlc method as they thought that saving the general improvements for free updates, while having the more "optional" improvements be included as smaller expansions instead would be a better method. I still get overall features that improve most aspects of the game for free but I can still pick and choose which dlc I want that tend to suit only certain play styles.

Perhaps but it dilutes a bit the experience.

I´d rather have a complete lobster in front of me than just some legs, if you get what I mean. Not saying it doesn´t have some advantages but DLCs don´t have that "Wow" factor, which is why I don´t think expansions should be abandoned.
 
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In my personal view, I think the DLCs in general have been too expensive and I'm tired of waiting for them to go on sale, which is taking far longer than it used too. I was not about to spend 20.00 on Art of War and I've already put over $100 dollars into this game. Furthermore, I think the little cosmetic dlcs, as with many other games, are bullshite..always have and always will. Dox has explained why they do it, but I still don't agree with it.
(I recently finally bought AoW and Dorado -that thankfully GMG had on sale very early - before that after the patches the game just felt buggy as hell. Regardless of what you feel you won't use, I felt forced into buying them)

With that said, this economic model for gaming is in place now and will not change. Unless, ofc, folks just stop buying them, but that is not going to change either.

Free patching makes me laugh. You used to buy a game and it got patches, then you bought the next expansion with glee. However, if the DLC model encourages the developer to extend their patching timeframe considerably as Dox has done, I'm appreciative of it, but still don't feel it should cost so much.

I'd be fine with them releasing more frequent and smaller DLCs/Patches, but with very reasonable prices and all the cosmetic junk included...it's not gonna happen though.

(and I'm tired of the "you just don't have to buy it" line..that's complete crap...games shouldn't be exclusionary..it's all about the money. "Hey, look at that nice little sword you made with health regeneration, let's pull that out and sell it for $5.95)
 
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Vaximillian

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I didn't buy any major DLC except Art of War because I'm not interested in features they add: I rarely colonize, I don't play as merchant republics or colonials or natives; I usually play in Europe. Client states, occupation transfer, idea group abandon and allied objectives, however, are the features that deserved to be in the game from the very beginning.

Also the price tag is a bit steep, even disregarding cosmetics sold separately.
 
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sterrius

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EU IV is for me on the fridge. I already spended 135 hours in the game. But i know no matter how good the DLC is, i will not spend another 100 hours on it.

So i wait and wait until the dlc go to a reasonable price for the hours i will get playing. I got only wealth of nations for now, but waiting a 75% discount to buy the others.

Maybe by the end of 2015....

For me they dont worth a full price as i can get more hours buying another full game with a discout, a indie game, or a humble pack. Today every week you have a good game in a good sale so a DLC need to be very very good for you to spend on it instead of getting another full game.

True most of those games will give you 10 hours if you're luck, but when you already played 135 hours of EUIV a DLC will need to be a beast to make you play another, lets say 50 hours. So i just choose a new experience.
 

Silmarion

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Perhaps but it dilutes a bit the experience.

I´d rather have a complete lobster in front of me than just some legs, if you get what I mean. Not saying it doesn´t have some advantages but DLCs don´t have that "Wow" factor, which is why I don´t think expansions should be abandoned.

So buy the whole lobster. There's nothing preventing you from doing so.
 

WhiskyGlen

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It's a cliche by now, but you don't have to buy them if you don't think the features are worth it. The percentage point is interesting, and accurate, but is belied by the assumption that features~price should scale linearly. Perhaps it sometimes should, but things don't tend to scale linearly. Smaller products usually cost more per part than large ones, something not limited to DLCs, or even video games.

I don't think it should be an equal percentage, but it should be somewhere close. I would estimate each one of these DLCs to be around 1% of the game. Of course, how you come to that 1% conclusion would be variable depending on how you score the game. I would like something that is say 10-20%.

The OP is not taking into account all the free stuff that comes with every major DLC, updated for free into the base game, all of which would be bundled into an expansion and would have to be paid for in the old days.

Except that most old expansions were around $20 to $30. In other words, they were very similarly priced to what these present day DLCs are. Also, if I am paying for a product, I will never factor in the free features each and anyone gets. If I am playing WWII Online, I won't include basic infantry as part of my paid subscription since anyone can play as them for free. I will, however, factor in the tank, airplane, and advanced infantry side of the game.

Yeah, but you're setting an awfully high bar there - presumably MOST games you play don't compare in playtime/enjoyment to EU. That doesn't mean they're are all wastes of money.

Don't disagree with you at all there. A game like Call of Duty certainly has value even though you only get about 20-30 hours out of it if you do not play MP. But that is another example, their MP packs often allow you to buy five additional maps to your original 10-20 for $15+ extra.

This. Also if people didnt buy the expansions we wouldnt get any of the free patches or have gotten more than 3-4 patches or similar on the base game. The expansions pay for expansion stuff, free stuff and extra patching you cant only view one of these as an isolated thing. Ofcourse this also means that the value of the stuff you unlock by buying the DLC will be a bit less than it would be if there was no free stuff. On the other hand we gain the advantage that we can chose which DLC we want and do not have to buy them in sequence.

I wouldn't say you wouldn't get any of the free patches. I believe EUII was patched to version 1.9. Rome: Total War II has already had around 15 patches last I knew and they completely revamped the game as they repackaged it. Only DLC I bought for that was a "Beasts of War" add-on for $3 and it was a waste of money as dogs don't work properly anyways. Granted, that is almost not a fair comparison since they have a much higher budget to work with, I assume.

So buy the whole lobster. There's nothing preventing you from doing so.

Sometimes the whole lobster is not available.

------------------------

What I will give Paradox credit for is not re-releasing the game each year. That's what bothers me about sports game. Annual releases for games like Football Manager are irritating. That game usually gets three good patches or so per year then all the work goes on the next version. So I do thank Paradox for not going that route. I just wish DLC in general had more value or at least was cheaper. $5 for Art of War or El Dorado would be a very fair price. $20 and $15 respectively? Not so much.
 

WhiskyGlen

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Strange you continued to put money into something that had disappointed you before.

Art of War had some features that almost break the game if you don't have them in hindsight. El Dorado had the custom nations option. That tool alone actually would (and perhaps will) justify the $15 price tag if it allowed you to save your custom set-ups for later use and tweaking. Especially if they ever allow you to easily adjust already existing nations and set-up personal unions, vassals, etc. I admit I was disappointed in it, but I should have done more research.
 

gnome109

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EU IV is for me on the fridge. I already spended 135 hours in the game. But i know no matter how good the DLC is, i will not spend another 100 hours on it.

So i wait and wait until the dlc go to a reasonable price for the hours i will get playing. I got only wealth of nations for now, but waiting a 75% discount to buy the others.

Maybe by the end of 2015....

For me they dont worth a full price as i can get more hours buying another full game with a discout, a indie game, or a humble pack. Today every week you have a good game in a good sale so a DLC need to be very very good for you to spend on it instead of getting another full game.

True most of those games will give you 10 hours if you're luck, but when you already played 135 hours of EUIV a DLC will need to be a beast to make you play another, lets say 50 hours. So i just choose a new experience.
Just because something is labeled a "DLC" does not mean it has less content than a "full" game. For example the gigantic amount of content in Art Of War rivals that of a small title. Remember content is content regardless if it is labeled as a DLC.
 
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