The usual PDS double irealistic gameing mechanic

[Thrac]

The first irealistic gameing mechanic that you will find in each PDS game is misreprezentation of countrys size compared to its real size. This applys moastly to Western Eourpean countrys that get more provinces/regions/states per square kilometre compared to the RotW.

Second issue is that Western European nations get more development and development potential per province/region/state compared to the RotW.

Sadly you gone find to be the double norm in most PDS... i m not saying that Albania should start as a industrial power... but it should have the potential.
On the bright side in HoI4 atleast PDS respects the populations per regions ... and even if you got the industrial potential as a Western country you dont have the manpower to back it up.

Simple example that afirms my point about the double gameing issue in HoI4 is the comparation between Scotland ( 70.000 sqare km) and the state of Moldavia ( 50.000 sqare km) , Scotland is divided into 4 separate states with a maximum poptential around 20 industrial slots .... in comparation Moldavia is represented by just 1 state with a maximum potential of just 2 industrial slots. Both regionas Scotland and Moldavia in the HoI4 timeline have almost similar population and both ar european.

And just to make myself clear... i dont mind that Scotland starts with 10 factorys (its normal!)and Moldavia starts with 1, but i do mind that Moldavia cant be developed at the same level as Scotland if you make an effort.
And this issue is present in many other countrys in Europe and the RotW. Maybe 1 day we gone see a partially realistic world reprezentation when all country have atleast the opportunity to develope ... at the end of the day moast PDS games ar about "what if?" But sadly its not reflected in the game mechanics that greatly advantages some countrys.

Even so.... i m still gone buy the bloody game and hope for future balances! For Victory!

 

[BurdenedWarrior]

I can speak to the size of Europe being larger. This is a game design decision as said by pdx. The majority of action during ww2 is in europe. So they make that area larger so that the fight there is more interesting. I mean if they rob some space from Siberia, Scotland or regions of Africa in order to "fill out" the embattled areas of the world (China, Low countries, Eastern France, N. Africa, W. USSR, ect.) then I think that is a good game design decision. To make the in game world be accurate just for accuracy's stake is not a good enough reason. Game play trumps realism. That is why the English Channel is much larger then in real life. It is also the reason that the Americas have been shifted up on the in game world map.

As for the industrial potential I can't really speak to. I haven't played the game but I am sure they attempted to strike a balance between historical centres of production and game balance.

 

[Nicolas I]

...Simple example that afirms my point about the double gameing issue in HoI4 is the comparation between Scotland ( 70.000 sqare km) and the state of Moldavia ( 50.000 sqare km) , Scotland is divided into 4 separate states with a maximum poptential around 20 industrial slots .... in comparation Moldavia is represented by just 1 state with a maximum potential of just 2 industrial slots. Both regionas Scotland and Moldavia in the HoI4 timeline have almost similar population and both ar european...

No offence to people of Moldavia, but Scotland was an economic powerhouse since the industrial revolution (Glasgow was considered the second city of the british Empire) while Moldovia economy, based on agriculture, was lagging very far behind that and is still one of the poorest in Europe today. In modern economy it's not the surface area or the population that are important, it's the urbanization, the industrial capacity and the GDP.

Also, in the game the basic number of factory slots is defined by the region type. If Moldovia is categorized as a rural region, this number is 2 slots. Some national focuses and techs can give a bonus increasing this number, so maybe it can get to 3 slots.

I see only two ways to change this. Change the region type to developed rural which gives a basic number of factory slots of 4. Or create 2 states as rural regions, giving 2 times 2 slots.

With the user friendly modding tools presented in the DD#52, you can probably make one or both of these changes by yourself. Because I doubt the devs will upgrade Moldavia.

 

[Secret Master]

i m not saying that Albania should start as a industrial power... but it should have the potential.

Within the time frame of the game? This isn't Vic2 or CK2. You only have slightly more than a decade to sort it all out.

Hell, there are parts of Great Powers in Vic2 that never really get off the ground in terms of industry when I play the game for 100 years, and you want to turn Albania from a country with economic and political problems (including economic bullying from Italy as early as 1933) into an industrial power within 12 years? I don't see how it is realistic, or even balanced. If Italy conquers Albania, she is going to seize that industrial base you have advocated for so passionately. That will just end up inflating Italy's economy (even with the penalties the game might introduce).

If you want a fantasy Albania, just mod it in.

 

[Nicolas I]

Within the time frame of the game? This isn't Vic2 or CK2. You only have slightly more than a decade to sort it all out.

Hell, there are parts of Great Powers in Vic2 that never really get off the ground in terms of industry when I play the game for 100 years, and you want to turn Albania from a country with economic and political problems (including economic bullying from Italy as early as 1933) into an industrial power within 12 years? I don't see how it is realistic, or even balanced. If Italy conquers Albania, she is going to seize that industrial base you have advocated for so passionately. That will just end up inflating Italy's economy (even with the penalties the game might introduce).

If you want a fantasy Albania, just mod it in.

As he speaks of both Moldavia and Albania, maybe if he unify these two countries in one he can double the factory slots ?

 

[Secret Master]

As he speaks of both Moldavia and Albania, maybe if he unify these two countries in one he can double the factory slots ?

Is there some historical or dynastic connection between the two regions I don't know about? I confess some measure of confusion and ignorance to matters in the region.

 

[Nicolas I]

Is there some historical or dynastic connection between the two regions I don't know about? I confess some measure of confusion and ignorance to matters in the region.

No connection whatsoever, hence the joke about this unlikely union...

 

[Secret Master]

No connection whatsoever, hence the joke about this unlikely union...

I never can tell when it comes to the Balkans. Some of the threads at Paradox forum over the years have contained some... strange... claims.

 

[BBBD316]

Yeah, for this game in particular it really is all about Europe and the Pacific. And the time frame is far too short to really get a minor to develop into a major outside a mod.

Once again for those playing at home the game puts gameplay above everything else.

 

[Thrac]

Within the time frame of the game? This isn't Vic2 or CK2. You only have slightly more than a decade to sort it all out.

Hell, there are parts of Great Powers in Vic2 that never really get off the ground in terms of industry when I play the game for 100 years, and you want to turn Albania from a country with economic and political problems (including economic bullying from Italy as early as 1933) into an industrial power within 12 years? I don't see how it is realistic, or even balanced. If Italy conquers Albania, she is going to seize that industrial base you have advocated for so passionately. That will just end up inflating Italy's economy (even with the penalties the game might introduce).

If you want a fantasy Albania, just mod it in.

Germany rebuilt its self in less then 12 years in the game timeframe... from a wreckd country to a global power that started ww2

 

[BBBD316]

Are you suggesting that Albania can match Germany for manpower or resources?

Even though Germany did what it did, the economy was running at a pace it couldn't sustain.

Germany has 65 million people as 1936, Albania has just over 1. How is that going to manage a German style build up?

 

[mursolini]

Germany rebuilt its self in less then 12 years in the game timeframe... from a wreckd country to a global power that started ww2

"Wrecked" is quite an overstatement. Germany remained large industrial and economic power, not to mention it used huge, unsustainable foreign loans to finance it`s recovery and build up.

To turn Albania into industrial powerhouse, one would have to first invest into education for 5-10 years, invest into infrastructure for another 10, equipment, and importantly, somehow also afford all the imports, thus have a market that isn`t cornered by somebody else.

Even a country of Soviet size, with quite a large industrial base left over from before Russian revolution, with huge gold and diamond reserves and quite an export capacity, it took 1920s huge investments into infrastructure and education and 1930s investments into mostly industry to get it on it`s foot.

Even then, SU purchased a lot of plants from USA, and a lot of Soviet equipment was in fact a copy, licensed or stolen, of western equipment. Only in late 30s did SU started to produce domestic equipment worthy of notice. And even then, Soviet army in 1940s was notoriously poor on quality electronics and medical supplies.

 

[Denkt]

Don't forgett that you can get quite a few factories from national focuses.

 

[potski]

To make the in game world be accurate just for accuracy's stake is not a good enough reason. Game play trumps realism. That is why the English Channel is much larger then in real life. It is also the reason that the Americas have been shifted up on the in game world map

It's not about the map, but the industry. And this is just about the OP not realising that Scotland could build these:

That's Vanguard, laid down in 1941 at the John Brown shipyard in Glasgow. She was the last ever battleship to be built, but she missed the war, being commissioned in 1946. John Brown's built many of the ships of the Royal Navy that served in WW2. In other words, alot of ships!

He has assumed that as they are a similar size/population they should be fairly similar industrially. When Scotland has a GDP 40 times that of Moldova. Glasgow was an industrial city of 1.2 million people in 1939.

 

[Thrac]

It's not about the map, but the industry. And this is just about the OP not realising that Scotland could build these:

That's Vanguard, laid down in 1941 at the John Brown shipyard in Glasgow. She was the last ever battleship to be built, but she missed the war, being commissioned in 1946. John Brown's built many of the ships of the Royal Navy that served in WW2. In other words, alot of ships!

He has assumed that as they are a similar size/population they should be fairly similar industrially. When Scotland has a GDP 40 times that of Moldova. Glasgow was an industrial city of 1.2 million people in 1939.

Pls scroll up and read again my post... i dont have anything with Scotland starting 12 out of 20 maximum factorys and Moldavia 1 out of 20. But thats the thing you dont even got the possibility to develope at 50% of Scotlands industrial capacity cuz your limited by the factory slots.
Btw my personal opinion is that in war GDP = 0 .... specialy today, manpower and resorces ar more important.... but thats a diferent thing.

 

[kalauer]

Pls scroll up and read again my post... i dont have anything with Scotland starting 12 out of 20 maximum factorys and Moldavia 1 out of 20. But thats the thing you dont even got the possibility to develope at 50% of Scotlands industrial capacity cuz your limited by the factory slots.
Btw my personal opinion is that in war GDP = 0 .... specialy today, manpower and resorces ar more important.... but thats a diferent thing.

But as was stated before, indutrial potential is not a function of space and potential workforce alone. If you could show that Moldavia had the means to back up the operation (yet alone the construction) of 20 IC (so comparable to Scotland), I would give you a point. Infrastructure and qualified workforce are only two of certainly many more criterias to consider. I guess giving Moldavia the possibility to build up to the level of an industrial nation would constitute the necessarity to do this for a lot of other provinces that historically just were not able to. For many reasons. But if you can make a proposal how Moldavia could have developed in this way, I would be interested.

Do not confuse "possible development" and "plausible development". While it might be possible for Moldavia to industrialize, it (at least to me9 seems anything but plausible. Plus it would influence game balance, making these regions prime targets (easy to grab with a lot of potential for development by majors...).

Regarding your generel critic: The region layout is very much related to the important events, as well as in EU4, CK2 and HoI. In EU4, there were major revisions of the maps to show other regions other than the naming "Europe" in more detail. But one can not get rid of the historic focus of the development ofthe series with the snap of a finger, even if one wanted to.

 

[potski]

But thats the thing you dont even got the possibility to develope at 50% of Scotlands industrial capacity cuz your limited by the factory slots.
Btw my personal opinion is that in war GDP = 0 .... specialy today, manpower and resorces ar more important.... but thats a diferent thing.

Yes, you are limited because Moldavia is not an industrialised city. It's a rural area. There are no steelworks and iron foundries. There is no history of shipbuilding going back over 100 years. There are not 10,000s of skilled platemakers, boilermakers, electricians, plumbers, draughtsmen, naval architects, planners and managers available. You can't just setup something on the scale of John Brown's shipyard in a rural backwater.

And, no, GDP is not zero during war:

Gross domestic product (GDP) is the monetary value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders in a specific time period.

Even if the government didn't actually pay for ships (they did actually), there is still a value.

 

[Thrac]

Yes, you are limited because Moldavia is not an industrialised city. It's a rural area. There are no steelworks and iron foundries. There is no history of shipbuilding going back over 100 years. There are not 10,000s of skilled platemakers, boilermakers, electricians, plumbers, draughtsmen, naval architects, planners and managers available. You can't just setup something on the scale of John Brown's shipyard in a rural backwater.

And, no, GDP is not zero during war:

Even if the government didn't actually pay for ships (they did actually), there is still a value.

Your 100% right from your point of view and it makes sens, but even in todays stream i v seen that most states in Poland had on average of 10 factory slots with only a few build meening they have a potential to grow ... and in the timeframe Poland and Romania had similar GDP per capita.
Second thing Scotland split in 4 states, Moldavia 1 state, if we would respect the proportion pe sqare kilometer Moldavia would be split in to 3 states, and even if each state would be rural ... would still mean 6 posible slots to develope.
As far as i know Romania managed to field almost 800.000 comatants in ww2, second Axis army on the Eastern Front, had its owne fighter plane and armament production, and it had of the biggest petrochemicals industry at that time.... so honestly i think that the state of Moldovia ( and Southern Transylvania, cuz i v seen that is a 2 slot state 2) deserve more then 2 factory slots.
If you designated a 3 milion inhabited european state in to a rural area( not even developed rural or sparsly urban) what you gone do about African states (sub- rural? no offence to Africa)
And about the GDP, 1 short thing 1 pack of ciggarets in the UK is 9 £ in Bulgaria its 3£ ... same ciggarets.... a butcher in the UK has a income of 1500£ a butcher in Croatia has 400£ , in case of war the croatian and the british have the same economic value = 1 soldier.

 

[Secret Master]

Germany rebuilt its self in less then 12 years in the game timeframe... from a wreckd country to a global power that started ww2

Actually, that's not really what happened, as Germany had been building back up since the end of WWI and even with the Depression in play, they weren't sitting at a level that was "wrecked" in any meaningful sense of that term. But we'd have to discuss...

Even though Germany did what it did, the economy was running at a pace it couldn't sustain.

"Wrecked" is quite an overstatement. Germany remained large industrial and economic power, not to mention it used huge, unsustainable foreign loans to finance it`s recovery and build up.

Ah, I see you guys have it covered.

I'll just add that Albania doesn't have Hjalmar Schacht conjuring Mefo bills out of the his magic currency wand (not a euphemism, incidentally) either. There's a reason the Allies wanted to have a little chat with him after the war was over.

 

[Evan05]

Germany rebuilt its self in less then 12 years in the game timeframe... from a wreckd country to a global power that started ww2

Germany was by no means a global power in WW2. They were a regional power. By Europe's standards they were the big boy when it came to the army in say 1940, but even then their air force was bested by Britain's and Germany's navy was laughable in comparison to the Royal Navy.

Ignoring that, Albania does not come even close to the population/manpower, industry, territory, and resources Germany has. Germany in its economic ruin of the 1920's was still far, far stronger than Albania could be.

Ultimately, I would say just deal with it. This game shouldn't be a historical simulator, but it should be plausible. Albania getting some chunks of land if they luck out and get on the right side is plausible. Albania becoming a powerhouse like Germany within the time frame of the game is most definitely not plausible.