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How do you use navies in a war?

It appears to me at that you cannot, unlike in HOI, deploy your navies on patrol in a given area to intercept enemy naval units etc. You can only deploy them in certain waters, and then move them manually.

Have I missed something, or have Victory just ignored the importance for naval action in the Victorian era?
 

Orm

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Welcome to the forum! :)

The greatest use I have for my navies is for naval bombardment, put a fleet outside a coastal province and you will have a significant bonus in both defense and attack. There is also colonial blockades, but I've never used that to any great extent. Other than that, yes the naval part of Victoria is neglected. :(
 
May 29, 2007
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And transport escort. Nothing more annoying than having 50 overfilled Transporter heading straight to Southampton blocked in the channel by a single commerce raider... Also, If you don't have any navy, overseas operation (troops transportation to combat/rebellion zone) are nearly impossible. This means no colonial empire; and no war with UK (which happens a least ONE time in each game). In fact, only continental powers as Germany or Russia could afford such a position (perhaps US too, after civil war).
Navy is certainly under-valued in Vicky; but not useless.
 

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qwerkus said:
Navy is certainly under-valued in Vicky; but not useless.

The main problem (IMV) is the lack of commerce-raiding and blockade. Vicky deals respectably with big battles between surface ships and the results, when one side has older or fewer ships, are appropriately catastrophic.

But you don't get the other aspects of the 19th-century naval scene: a few cruisers impinging on or totally crippling your international trade; gunboats appearing off far-flung colonies and annexing them just like that; a squadron of warships 'persuading' uncivlised nations to join an empire.

And submarines and aircraft carriers are badly implemented and the naval techtree is a bit anachronistic in places.
 

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Thx for the replies......

Unfortunately it only confirmed my worst fears.... :)

As a naval history buff, I would be thrilled to se at patch for Victoria, where naval combat becomes a essential part of the gameplay.

Who knows, maybe someday it will be released.. :)
 

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Obling said:
Thx for the replies......

Unfortunately it only confirmed my worst fears.... :)

As a naval history buff, I would be thrilled to se at patch for Victoria, where naval combat becomes a essential part of the gameplay.

Who knows, maybe someday it will be released.. :)

Probably not, sadly.

None of Paradox's games have a really strong naval combat model - HOI2's is actually quite good but once you have learnt to game it, it's easy.

In fact I don't know of any games at all which have very strong naval combat models :(
 

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Obling said:
Thx for the replies......

Unfortunately it only confirmed my worst fears.... :)

As a naval history buff, I would be thrilled to se at patch for Victoria, where naval combat becomes a essential part of the gameplay.

Who knows, maybe someday it will be released.. :)

maybe they could do an expansion which would develop the naval part of the game. I would certainly pay 15/20 euros for such an expansion
 

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Dietmar1982 said:
maybe they could do an expansion which would develop the naval part of the game. I would certainly pay 15/20 euros for such an expansion

So would I, but the number of people who would do so is very, very small...amongst the general gaming populace there is little understanding of military developments in the Vicky time-period and virtually none of naval developments! Gamers and other hobbyists concentrate far more on the famous stuff that happened in the World Wars and the Napoleonic War htan the trajectory in between (and, to be fair, so do historians).
 

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You hit the nail on the head there. Only a small amount of the general population would know how effective it has been to strangle country's economy via the navy. However, that small amount is probably the same amount that plays Vicki really. You do have to admit that Vicki, though I love it, does not have a wide appeal. I actually had asked this question earlier if it was possible to do economic warfare, but short of a Victoria 2 or massive work on a patch, I doubt it will occur for a while. But if I remember correctly, I think I heard it mentioned once that Paradox had plans to start more work on economic warfare...but that could be my brain playing a nasty trick...
 

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I think RoyalArk is correct when he says that the Vicky buffs are often the same people as the naval buffs... I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people request a better naval model.

What I wish they'd do is merge the economic focus of Victoria with the excellent military model of HoI.

fasquardon
 

OHgamer

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fasquardon said:
What I wish they'd do is merge the economic focus of Victoria with the excellent military model of HoI.

fasquardon

Good heavens no, thank you very much.

There is already enough to do during a war having to ensure your home front stays stable and productive to have to add an additional couple of spinning plates to the mix by having to individually assign routes to ships for patrol duty. It's like having to worry about individual elements of supply consumption rather than having it all nicely and neatly elided into a hit on national income generated from your economic production, adds a lot more minute details to something that does not have to be so complex.

Just because an element is useful in making warfare more realistic doesn't mean its not also a potential micromanaging headache. if Victoria was a war game like HoI, where the ultimate goal is winning a war, then I could see the need to emphasize military elements more. but Victoria is not a war game. it is about managing the transformation of societies from traditional agricultural to modern industrial production, and the social, political and cultural transformations that result. Warfare is one aspect of the game, in the end not the most important one, and is only supportable if your internal base of power is stable and productive. Players already complain that there is too much micromanaging in Victoria, why add yet more micromanaging just because it has to do with elements of warfare in a game that in the end is not primarily centered around war.

Keep up your naval technology so you have the best, most powerful ships on the planet. Then put the ships in your coastal zones if you want to protect your coasts at home and in the colonies, and if you plan on making sea landings, have screening ship forces strong enough to ensure that your transports are not sunk by enemy ships. no need to worry about patrols, if the enemy ships come into your coastal ocean provinces, your forces are there ready and waiting. Easy to control for the human player while trying to ensure that his economy is stable and productive, POP militancy is not rising too rapidly due to war exhaustion, and land forces are doing what the player wants them to do.

The only aspect I do agree could be improved is the impact of blockading, but here the issue is less the running of the ships but rather reflecting the impact on accest to trade from overseas. And here you run into all sorts of problems with how to reflect the impact of neutral shipping and the existence of neutrals on the borders of nations at war with another nation. Should the human player of say the Netherlands, neutral in a war between Britain and Germany, have its own access to the world market cut, or should it be able to export and import freely. What does this mean for Germany - sure the ENG navy can block its sea routes, but if HOL is neutral, it could still buy production from HOL and any other neutral on its land borders. in the end, given the current base construction of how the world economy works in Victoria, it will take development of a Victoria 2 to really develop something that will reflect the nature of blockades in a way as to make them a real presence without prejudicing a human player of a neutral nation.
.
 

unmerged(51061)

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The only aspect I do agree could be improved is the impact of blockading, but here the issue is less the running of the ships but rather reflecting the impact on accest to trade from overseas. And here you run into all sorts of problems with how to reflect the impact of neutral shipping and the existence of neutrals on the borders of nations at war with another nation. Should the human player of say the Netherlands, neutral in a war between Britain and Germany, have its own access to the world market cut, or should it be able to export and import freely. What does this mean for Germany - sure the ENG navy can block its sea routes, but if HOL is neutral, it could still buy production from HOL and any other neutral on its land borders. in the end, given the current base construction of how the world economy works in Victoria, it will take development of a Victoria 2 to really develop something that will reflect the nature of blockades in a way as to make them a real presence without prejudicing a human player of a neutral nation.

Is there a way Germany's borders can be checked? While at war could something like this work?

Prestige_at_War = Prestige * (neutral or friendly borders / total borders)

This would lower the capability of the nation on the WM during the war.
 
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Economic game should be improved at the expense of military game.

Only creating the divisions/armies and assigning generals to them (if you're other than democracy) should be enough for this game. It would be actually more fun to have independent automated army performing as well as the AI. Wars would have some meaning and excitement... in my wildest dreams the mobilization button would actually become vital. You would choose in which front to emphasize and give orders to make overseas invasions.
But I think it's too firmly rooted in the gaming crowd that you have to be part in the action sequences, in empire management games that is. Quite opposite, everything else is stripped down to have more time for it.
 

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OHgamer said:
Good heavens no, thank you very much.

There is already enough to do during a war having to ensure your home front stays stable and productive to have to add an additional couple of spinning plates to the mix by having to individually assign routes to ships for patrol duty.

True - but surely there is a way that can be abstracted?

It's like having to worry about individual elements of supply consumption rather than having it all nicely and neatly elided into a hit on national income generated from your economic production

Actually, I think what you have identified is a fairly significant weakness of the Vicky model.

Historically there *were* significant problems because nations ran out of specific strategic resources. Think of the British 'shell crisis' of 1915. Finanically, Britian was capable of paying soldiers all it wanted. Economically, it lacked the armaments industry to supply the army it fielded. My ideal Vicky 2 game would find a way of modelling that, and giving military units a specific supply demand for ammunition, explosives etc as relevant would be a good way of doing it.

I don't agree that the extra micromanagement would be too huge - one has to microamange building factories anyway; what's the problem with taking this into account and building a few more?

Should the human player of say the Netherlands, neutral in a war between Britain and Germany, have its own access to the world market cut, or should it be able to export and import freely. What does this mean for Germany - sure the ENG navy can block its sea routes, but if HOL is neutral, it could still buy production from HOL and any other neutral on its land borders. in the end, given the current base construction of how the world economy works in Victoria, it will take development of a Victoria 2 to really develop something that will reflect the nature of blockades in a way as to make them a real presence without prejudicing a human player of a neutral nation.

Of course this was a very real dilemma historically. Did Britain blockade neutral ships trading with Holland in WWI? They thought long and hard about it, making tradeoffs between the impact on the enemy economy, the views of the international community, and their own trade situation. Of course the picture was complicated by the many international treaties on the subject of trading with belligerents...

From another point of view, Germany adopted unrestricted submarine warfare agaisnt international law, which helped bring the USA into the allies, because they thought that Britain would run out of food, wood, and shipping...

I agree there i no prospect of Vicky modelling all these things but I am optimistic to the point of salivating that Vicky 2 will have a sophisticated-enough model.
 

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TheLand said:
...Historically there *were* significant problems because nations ran out of specific strategic resources. Think of the British 'shell crisis' of 1915. Finanically, Britian was capable of paying soldiers all it wanted. Economically, it lacked the armaments industry to supply the army it fielded. My ideal Vicky 2 game would find a way of modelling that, and giving military units a specific supply demand for ammunition, explosives etc as relevant would be a good way of doing it.

I don't agree that the extra micromanagement would be too huge - one has to microamange building factories anyway; what's the problem with taking this into account and building a few more?
...
I don't think it would add that much extra management. if you simply gave the regiments a daily need of strategic resources, you would have to produce them or buy them. In case you didn't your troops efficiency would drop by some set amount.

all this could be automated so all you had to do, was make sure that the resources are there for your troops.

perhaps there should be a difference between troops fighting and those not. But that would again only add problems for the programmers not the players.
 

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I certainly will agree with Ohgamer that it will lead to quite a stark rise in micromanaging. But one seriously does have to admit, we are doing a great job when it comes to micromanaging already. And this is something that we desire quite badly really. Though I know nothing about producing computer games, perhaps it could be devised like in HOI2:Armageddon where a democracy can declare war without a nation having a high B, or you can turn it off. (Radical difference, I know, but you get the point).

Because at the end of the day, we Brits didn't really win the war due to superior weapons, generals or anything of that sort. Our navy strangled the German supply rate and we were given supplies. And then let's look at the Russians at the beginning of the war: perhaps this is a myth, but supposedly 1/5 + were unarmed when they were mobilized. So supplies means everything is this game. And this can transcend the WWI era back to throughout the entire Vicki era. What was a major reason why the US defeated the CSA? They strangled supplies. The navy is incredibly important and economic warfare should happen. Now, I will admit it will take an incredibly long time to make, but I know there are many of us who would happily wait for the good souls who would work for this and def pay a couple of extra quid.
 

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RoyalArk14 said:
You hit the nail on the head there. Only a small amount of the general population would know how effective it has been to strangle country's economy via the navy. However, that small amount is probably the same amount that plays Vicki really. You do have to admit that Vicki, though I love it, does not have a wide appeal. I actually had asked this question earlier if it was possible to do economic warfare, but short of a Victoria 2 or massive work on a patch, I doubt it will occur for a while. But if I remember correctly, I think I heard it mentioned once that Paradox had plans to start more work on economic warfare...but that could be my brain playing a nasty trick...

I think the econ war would be easy to do, if you adapt the HOI2 model (direct trades with a power) setup via the world market. What I mean, you use the world market to aquire a resource, the game assigns a country to supply, based off a bunch of factors, and then it is delivered with an associated risk (like HOI2's effectiveness rating). The check would be the tough part, but have it look for most economical, availability, standing (factor in relations, make it a perk to have +200 with a country). It keeps the simplicity of the WM, but adds the desired details. You can also setup options to "help" direct the AI, like Land Routes Only, or Countries with +100 relationship.

However, not a programmer, so I may be asking for a whole lot!
 

Crushwolf

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I think the land battle (save reinforcement and supply lines) is pretty solid. Maybe throw in some ministers al la HOI2 to add more diversity to game play. The only part I see that needs attention is late game, with tanks and aircraft. Maybe make forts more versitale...supply depot, airfield, deployment spot for troops, just an idea! For the most part, leave land as is, refine some spots...

Naval, however, I think should be a litteral copy and paste from HOI2. However, change the "range" limit to a "at sea" time limit, sorta like EU. This would adequately reflect supply issues of the time. Most of the HOI2 missions can be adapted I think to work very well with a Vicky Navy. I agree that navies are broke, but I think Vicky is the easiest place to fix it due to the time and the "standardization" of navies until the next big jump. Very different from a historical WWII view of world navies.
 

OHgamer

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Crushwolf said:
I think the econ war would be easy to do, if you adapt the HOI2 model (direct trades with a power) setup via the world market. What I mean, you use the world market to aquire a resource, the game assigns a country to supply, based off a bunch of factors, and then it is delivered with an associated risk (like HOI2's effectiveness rating). The check would be the tough part, but have it look for most economical, availability, standing (factor in relations, make it a perk to have +200 with a country). It keeps the simplicity of the WM, but adds the desired details. You can also setup options to "help" direct the AI, like Land Routes Only, or Countries with +100 relationship.

However, not a programmer, so I may be asking for a whole lot!

The thing is in the Victoria time period you did not have bilateral trade relations between nations in the sense of directly trading x goods for y goods. That was an innovation of the Third Reich in the late 1930s to gain access to goods from developing nations without having to spend hard currency reserves. In the Victoria era, importers brought in goods from other nations, governments collected duties, and then the imports were sold.

What you would need to do would be to have the game engine keep track of which nations were exporting goods to the WM each day, see if those nations were at war with other nations, and then not only block access to the nations that are at war with each other from being able to buy goods off the WM that come from those nations, but also determine the degree to which the nation's ability to import or export a good is limited by any potential land or sea blockade of its borders.

That would be a huge amount of additional daily calculation on the part of the game engine. Maybe in a Victoria 2 with higher minimum game requirements, but with Victoria's minimums set based on 2002 computer standards (450 mHz processor, 128 mB RAM) probably too much additional number crunching to be included in a patch or expansion pack that would have to conform to those minimum standards to allow all players of the game the ability to make use of the patch or expansion pack.