The upper middle class -- the single most fundamental problem with Crusader Kings.

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Sindai

Colonel
39 Badges
Apr 26, 2001
801
656
Visit site
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
What you're essentially suggesting is adding another layer below baronies with "families". Is it really needed? I think it's pretty clear that all this stuff is currently abstracted in CK. New nobles and courtiers appear out of nowhere, yeah. I'm not sure it's a good idea to create a whole new layer the player can basically have no control on just for the purpose of making economy slightly more diverse and providing a pool of characters (that would basically be randomly generated anyway).

All those new characters would be bad for performance and add very little to the game. It's not a bad idea per se (though I still have some reserves when it comes to how it can be portrayed since medieval socities were very diverse and evolved through the era), but I just don't think it's worth it. There are many historical phenomena not portrayed in CK, I just don't see why this one would deserve more to be included.
Yeah, this is the reason it's not going to happen. Barons already need to have simplified AI and interaction for performance reasons, adding a new, even more numerous group of characters that need pretty much any kind of AI is not going to happen. Even more so if the direct gameplay impact from a player's perspective is fairly small.

It's easy to make any feature proposal sound good by focusing on the good parts, but from a developer's perspective every proposed gameplay system starts at -100 points because it'll take up CPU cycles that could be spent on other things and development time that could be spent on other things.
 

ray243

Colonel
34 Badges
Oct 19, 2010
898
1.460
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
To be fair, those examples are all very unique cases. In most places on the map, it's even debatable whether there was a non-noble upper middle class in the 11th century, and whether it hold that much power. I


Depends when and where.


Late game. Exactly.


The evolution of medieval societies that saw the rise of bourgeoisie happens during CK's timeline. And that's problematic. How would the upper middle class be portrayed in game, and how could it evolve through the game? The Estates General were only created at the beginning of the 14th century in France.
What you're essentially suggesting is adding another layer below baronies with "families". Is it really needed? I think it's pretty clear that all this stuff is currently abstracted in CK. New nobles and courtiers appear out of nowhere, yeah. I'm not sure it's a good idea to create a whole new layer the player can basically have no control on just for the purpose of making economy slightly more diverse and providing a pool of characters (that would basically be randomly generated anyway).
All those new characters would be bad for performance and add very little to the game. It's not a bad idea per se (though I still have some reserves when it comes to how it can be portrayed since medieval socities were very diverse and evolved through the era), but I just don't think it's worth it. There are many historical phenomena not portrayed in CK, I just don't see why this one would deserve more to be included.

I would say the middle age is more of an anomaly. The world before, and the world after the middle age was an age most people do not have near-absolute control over their lands. From a world-historical perspective, the middle age was a bit of an oddball. Most societies were not feudal-like except in some historical cases. Yes, that happened in Japan as well, but it is difficult to name that many civilisations that had a "feudal" age.


Yes they arent barons, but levys are not professional soldiers. Laevys are basically peasant who take up a sword and have some swinging experience before.

In this could be used ck2 population system where settlement population is like 10 000 and 10% can be taken as levys or 1 % cab be takes as levys. If to tranfer that to estates then estates usually had village people working in then doing varios tasks and some income depended on estate economy and as estes had willages around them they have manpower to collect and send to liege.

So estate do not generate manpower for estate master but they collect realm manpower to send liege.

If to take a historiacl approce, then levy raisers did have accsess to all manpower in realm, so middle of forest dwellings were missed. But if that middle of forest dwelling sells wool to estate owner then estate owner can pass a word that liege collects able man for fighting and also can inform liege that nowhere middle of forest there is actually kind on miny settlemnt where you can find extra levys.

But that's not exactly how it works for many places. Yes, estates did have access to manpower, but there are plenty of freeholding peasants in many parts of an empire. And estates aren't necessarily expected to furnish the recruits for the armies. Ideally, state will rather recruit from free-holding peasants directly, instead of having to rely on estate owners.

What estate owners does is to furnish junior officiers, cavalry-men, bureaucrats and lawyers for the empire or kingdom. Their power lies less in the manpower they control, but the manpower which provides them with just enough funds to afford a military or a civil education to partake in the administration of the empire.

Yeah, this is the reason it's not going to happen. Barons already need to have simplified AI and interaction for performance reasons, adding a new, even more numerous group of characters that need pretty much any kind of AI is not going to happen. Even more so if the direct gameplay impact from a player's perspective is fairly small.

It's easy to make any feature proposal sound good by focusing on the good parts, but from a developer's perspective every proposed gameplay system starts at -100 points because it'll take up CPU cycles that could be spent on other things and development time that could be spent on other things.

Yeah, this is why I said the game is essentially hard-coded to prevent a proper depiction of the Byzantine empire and etc. Unless they are able to streamline the game code in such a way that it can handle a massive influx of characters ( and somehow not increase the game system requirements), we should not believe any DLCs update can fix the issue of the Byzantines.
 

Dlin369

General
64 Badges
Aug 17, 2017
1.943
3.400
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
To be fair, those examples are all very unique cases. In most places on the map, it's even debatable whether there was a non-noble upper middle class in the 11th century, and whether it hold that much power. I


Depends when and where.


Late game. Exactly.


The evolution of medieval societies that saw the rise of bourgeoisie happens during CK's timeline. And that's problematic. How would the upper middle class be portrayed in game, and how could it evolve through the game? The Estates General were only created at the beginning of the 14th century in France.
What you're essentially suggesting is adding another layer below baronies with "families". Is it really needed? I think it's pretty clear that all this stuff is currently abstracted in CK. New nobles and courtiers appear out of nowhere, yeah. I'm not sure it's a good idea to create a whole new layer the player can basically have no control on just for the purpose of making economy slightly more diverse and providing a pool of characters (that would basically be randomly generated anyway).
All those new characters would be bad for performance and add very little to the game. It's not a bad idea per se (though I still have some reserves when it comes to how it can be portrayed since medieval socities were very diverse and evolved through the era), but I just don't think it's worth it. There are many historical phenomena not portrayed in CK, I just don't see why this one would deserve more to be included.

Personally I was more thinking about the relationship between improving different types of baronies since they correlate with the 3 estates France would end up dealing with - Castles and the nobility, Churches and the clergy, and Cities and the bourgeosie. I'm not imaginative for a big change to the system, only a limited rework.

Finding a way to make cities increasingly relevant and powerful as time goes on and modeling factors for why the system shifted more in their favor would be nice. Like the rise of pike infantry and greater standing armies towards the late middle ages giving the bourgeosie a military counter to the nobles' mounted knights. Changes to trade and interconnection of europe and urbanization (more covered in EU4 but some smaller elements suggesting that this would become a problem in the future) would also help non-nobles rise in influence. Late game cities built in relevant areas should grow extremely wealthy from trade and early industry, and be able to challenge their local count (and once they take the county, their duke) for power.

I guess the most I can truly imagine is the "meta" should be building castles in the start of the game when you depend on levies a lot for survival and then shifting over to cities towards the end because they provide you with enough money that you can afford more "professional" armies. Your court should slowly be filling up with non-landed characters as you grow more powerful. Lower level nobles that are in heavy debt should be getting offers from mayors to "purchase" the county in exchange for money.

The end of the game should be with the nobility still on top but in the twighlight of their power. The burghers should clearly on the rise and ready to start seizing power in the future the game doesn't cover. The Kings and Emperors (which are mostly players) should be forced to decide how to respond to that during the late game, and try to centralize some more power in the future.
 

luxfelix

Colonel
53 Badges
Sep 21, 2014
1.184
1.700
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
I guess the most I can truly imagine is the "meta" should be building castles in the start of the game when you depend on levies a lot for survival and then shifting over to cities towards the end because they provide you with enough money that you can afford more "professional" armies. Your court should slowly be filling up with non-landed characters as you grow more powerful. Lower level nobles that are in heavy debt should be getting offers from mayors to "purchase" the county in exchange for money.

The end of the game should be with the nobility still on top but in the twighlight of their power. The burghers should clearly on the rise and ready to start seizing power in the future the game doesn't cover. The Kings and Emperors (which are mostly players) should be forced to decide how to respond to that during the late game, and try to centralize some more power in the future.
iod


Curious: Would the rise of the burghers also correspond with the eventual waning of cavalry during the infantry innovation period (i.e. Swiss pikes, English longbow yeomanry, etc.), as well as the early nationalist movements (heroes of liberation factions could come from the burghers?)?
 

Dlin369

General
64 Badges
Aug 17, 2017
1.943
3.400
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
iod


Curious: Would the rise of the burghers also correspond with the eventual waning of cavalry during the infantry innovation period (i.e. Swiss pikes, English longbow yeomanry, etc.), as well as the early nationalist movements (heroes of liberation factions could come from the burghers?)?

Yeah I suppose that’d make sense. At the risk of preassuming that social development is predetermined (obviously it isn’t) I’d kinda like the rise of the burghers to be a sort of slow, rising force throughout the game that speeds or slows based off the collection actions of the nobility. And then being a threat or not depending on the player’s decisions
 

ray243

Colonel
34 Badges
Oct 19, 2010
898
1.460
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
Yeah I suppose that’d make sense. At the risk of preassuming that social development is predetermined (obviously it isn’t) I’d kinda like the rise of the burghers to be a sort of slow, rising force throughout the game that speeds or slows based off the collection actions of the nobility. And then being a threat or not depending on the player’s decisions

Alternatively, players can play as burghers to undermine the authority of the feudal nobility.
 

DavidYung

Pan of Scepters
4 Badges
Jun 22, 2013
162
615
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings III
Maybe we can restrict the total number of simulated Families to make it feasible for the game. I suggest one can only see or (with a DLC?) play as the very upper crust of these Higher Middle Class figures. The number of these Families would depend on the tier-level of the top-most liege.

This would get rid of the problem of each barony having a Family (a bit extreme). Plus, after a while there would be so many families (especially on Empire tier) that it would be absolutely insane. Also, if there are so many families, I doubt many would be able to actually climb to the top or really matter.

---

So I propose a limited model where less Families are simulated but would be more impactful on gameplay.

Each independent realm would have a max number of simulated/playable Families that actually matter in most of the terms you listed and would be simulated.

Independent county - Max. 4 Families.
Independent duchy - Max. 8 Families.
Independent kingdom - Max. 12 Families.
Empire - Max. 16 Families.


These are the absolute maximum caps per realm type, so that would mean that at the highest level of prosperity and technology, this is the amount of Families you would have to deal with. Most of the time you will have significantly less, or, if there is no prosperity and little technology there would be no simulated Family.

This way, there is also a nice difficulty increase for those who want kingdoms and particularly empires to be more challenging. This would also help give many more options for ''times of Prosperity'' and those who want to have more to do in times of peace. After all, there are more people vying for power and influence into politics and the economy; because these Families get their strength from Prosperity (maybe not so much peace) in the first place.

These Families would represent the upper crust who own estates that are simulated and (perhaps in future DLC, as part of a free update) playable.

All the other lower 'Families' could be abstracted through events. If one of the upper crust Families disappears, they would be replaced by a randomly generated Family supposedly from the 'lower crust' - if that's a thing (similar to the ''spawn-a-noble'' button).

If you play as a vassal within a kingdom, it could happen you might not have a strong (simulated) Family in your county. You would still have events that play for non-represented Upper Class people (maybe buying land for estates, giving a possibility that a strong Family might arise in your sub-realm). As the top ruler, you would have to try to balance the relations between the local dukes/counts and their strong upper class Family estate(s). Perhaps here Realm Laws could be interesting.

---

This could be a basic model that can be expanded upon in future releases and by modders.
I also want to note that I now see that @icedt729 had a somewhat similar but more in-depth suggestion in the China Megathread (page 10) - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/china-megathread.1261244/page-10 .

[…]
In my opinion, the most important feature of medieval Chinese life that the game should capture is the idea of a *career* in government. A successful character will move up the ranks, serve in various parts of the empire in different roles, and ultimately end up as a senior official at the imperial court. In the meantime they'll have set up at least one of their sons and/or nephews up for an official career of their own, and made some improvements to the family's private estate. This will be very different from the arc of a successful landed, feudal character, who wants to accumulate hereditary titles and pass those titles on to heirs. In short, the Chinese game would be very strongly skewed towards roleplaying and family management and away from the 'strategic' layer of land and warfare.

I think the best approach would be to do something like a balance between CK2's family palaces and I:R's holdings. Each, say, duchy capital (subject to balancing) is home to a number of Clan Estates. The Estates operate more or less like Palaces, being held by the playable clan patriarch and serving as a privately held source of income and prestige for when the clan members aren't in office. Giving a local/regional identity to each clan is historically accurate, and also helps get around the challenges with the limited number of Chinese surnames (i.e. the "Li clan of Henei" and the "Li clan of Longxi" is easier to distinguish than just an undifferentiated mass of unrelated people surnamed Li). If a family fails to produce any officials for a certain number of generations (subject to balance), then they vanish and a new clan is generated in their place, similar to what happens when a patrician family falls.

Officialdom offers several different tracks. The largest is the civil administration, meaning the landed titles. Second largest is the military (military officials operate something like CK3's bishops, taking in all the levies/men-at-arms for a particular region/ de jure title without holding all of the land and tax base, which remains in civil administrator hands). A third, open mostly to women and eunuchs, is through the imperial household- a path which is not particularly prestigious and can be very dangerous, but which may lead to the fastest access to the Emperor and his circle. A successful clan will likely produce many civil officials, including some members of the imperial court, as well as the odd military official and numerous concubines or consorts to the Emperor and his clansmen. Or, a player could specialize in one particular path, whether their goal is to influence the Empire or to usurp it. Different stats should all influence a character's ability to succeed in these tracks, but in very different ways. Characters can rise through competence, effective networking, corruption, blackmail or a variety of other methods.

One important aspect of this would be to divide up the 'authority' of assigning positions/titles. The Emperor should not be able to appoint, investiture-style, every civil administrator from the county on up. Whether through decisions, events, or otherwise, no single individual in the Empire should have total control over a system as vast, complex and inscrutable as the Chinese imperial bureaucracy. It needs an element of opacity and unpredictability.

Another is the examination system. Under the Tang, most officials came from the great families and only a minority passed through examinations, but in the Song the examination system became universal and the power of the great clans receded. Sitting for the exams was an important milestone in the life of a young man of the gentry, and performance on them greatly impacted their career prospects and prestige. But it was also a fact that graduates often greatly outnumbered actual vacancies, so many educated members of the gentry class lived private lives on their estates as artists, scholars, and local leaders- meaning there is plenty to do even for those members of the clan who are not holding a position in government. A son or nephew who fails to gain office, but who produces a major artistic or literary work, can still enhance the family's prestige and benefit his kinsmen.

All of this is relevant for the normal, playable clans under the Chinese empire, but for the imperial line things will be a little bit different. Although the Emperor doesn't have direct and total control over the running of his realm, being forced to rely on the professional bureaucrats and officers under him, he is very concerned with the defense of the Empire and the stability of his clan's hold on the throne. A Mandate mechanic (based very, very roughly off of Decadence) represents the imperial clan's right to rule, and is increased by effective governance, victory in war, economic prosperity and good omens, but threatened by corruption, inefficiency, defeat and natural disasters. Many of the choices pursued by individual characters and clans in their own self-interest are damaging to the Mandate in the long run, so the Emperor is burdened with seeking out sources of the erosion of his Mandate or offsetting them with successes on other fronts. And at the same time that elevating capable officials is good for the realm, it can also put those same people in a position to usurp the throne.

In short, to make China playable you'd need to greatly flesh out the domestic politics, interpersonal relationships, day-to-day events and civil-military divide, aside from making some tweaks to how government works in game. But I think that these changes would make Chinese gameplay into a really unique and enjoyable experience, while also offering improvements to other regions (ERE in particular, but potentially any centralizing late-game realm).
 
Last edited:

Imgran

General
28 Badges
Nov 2, 2003
2.170
1.554
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Maybe we can restrict the total number of simulated Families to make it feasible for the game. I suggest one can only see or (with a DLC?) play as the very upper crust of these Higher Middle Class figures. The number of these Families would depend on the tier-level of the top-most liege.

This would get rid of the problem of each barony having a Family (a bit extreme). Plus, after a while there would be so many families (especially on Empire tier) that it would be absolutely insane. Also, if there are so many families, I doubt many would be able to actually climb to the top or really matter.

---

So I propose a limited model where less Families are simulated but would be more impactful on gameplay.

Each independent realm would have a max number of simulated/playable Families that actually matter in most of the terms you listed and would be simulated.

Independent county - Max. 4 Families.
Independent duchy - Max. 8 Families.
Independent kingdom - Max. 12 Families.
Empire - Max. 16 Families.


These are the absolute maximum caps per realm type, so that would mean that at the highest level of prosperity and technology, this is the amount of Families you would have to deal with. Most of the time you will have significantly less, or, if there is no prosperity and little technology there would be no simulated Family.

This way, there is also a nice difficulty increase for those who want kingdoms and particularly empires to be more challenging. This would also help give many more options for ''times of Prosperity'' and those who want to have more to do in times of peace. After all, there are more people vying for power and influence into politics and the economy; because these Families get their strength from Prosperity (maybe not so much peace) in the first place.

These Families would represent the upper crust who own estates that are simulated and (perhaps in future DLC, as part of a free update) playable.

All the other lower 'Families' could be abstracted through events. If one of the upper crust Families disappears, they would be replaced by a randomly generated Family supposedly from the 'lower crust' - if that's a thing (similar to the ''spawn-a-noble'' button).

If you play as a vassal within a kingdom, it could happen you might not have a strong (simulated) Family in your county. You would still have events that play for non-represented Upper Class people (maybe buying land for estates, giving a possibility that a strong Family might arise in your sub-realm). As the top ruler, you would have to try to balance the relations between the local dukes/counts and their strong upper class Family estate(s). Perhaps here Realm Laws could be interesting.

---

This could be a basic model that can be expanded upon in future releases and by modders.
I also want to note that I now see that @icedt729 had a somewhat similar but more in-depth suggestion in the China Megathread (page 10) - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/china-megathread.1261244/page-10 .


I could accept that. It would at least create a basis if modders wanted to expand on the idea
 

Dlin369

General
64 Badges
Aug 17, 2017
1.943
3.400
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
CK is a game about autocratic politics, intrigue, and role playing. It's not a full medieval simulator.

i think it’d help with the politics element to have an emerging new faction start to appear towards the end, helping differentiate between early, mid and late game issues
 

DavidYung

Pan of Scepters
4 Badges
Jun 22, 2013
162
615
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings III
CK is a game about autocratic politics, intrigue, and role playing. It's not a full medieval simulator.

The thing is, some of these polities have different set-ups that cannot be represented properly just because of the issue of landless characters. Just by implementing a rudimentary system such as this, it would allow for more gameplay options in the long run. Otherwise, it is a weird one-size-fits all where governments cannot really take on different shapes. It's a bit weird to say that this is okay. If it was, then you could just stick to CK2. Why bother having a new game at all if you don't expand on governments which, as your comment suggests, is perhaps the most vital part of gameplay.

No landless characters means that many ''politics'', ''intrigue'', and yes ''role playing'' options will not be possible.

We're not suggesting that you should be able to live the life of a peasant (or day-to-day royal life for that matter) or make this Kingdom Come Deliverance or anything. This is about deepening that political level you speak of.

If you like the religion update... why not want a similar big update on governments?
 

Leivve

Captain
71 Badges
Aug 25, 2016
321
552
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
The thing is, some of these polities have different set-ups that cannot be represented properly just because of the issue of landless characters. Just by implementing a rudimentary system such as this, it would allow for more gameplay options in the long run. Otherwise, it is a weird one-size-fits all where governments cannot really take on different shapes. It's a bit weird to say that this is okay. If it was, then you could just stick to CK2. Why bother having a new game at all if you don't expand on governments which, as your comment suggests, is perhaps the most vital part of gameplay.

No landless characters means that many ''politics'', ''intrigue'', and yes ''role playing'' options will not be possible.

We're not suggesting that you should be able to live the life of a peasant (or day-to-day royal life for that matter) or make this Kingdom Come Deliverance or anything. This is about deepening that political level you speak of.

You are confusing what depth means. Political depth doesn't just come from having more people. "Middle class" didn't be come a thing till after the game's time period. Feudalism was the government form of the day. If you're here looking for different government representation, you're playing the wrong game. The economic and different classes of fedualism are represented in the abstract. You don't need to flood the player's court with worthless NPC merchants that only exist to fill your court, CK2 suffers from that problem, where you'll have 30 NPCs, and you only know 3 of them, and you only know those three cause RNG made them your friend; not cause they meaningfully contribute to the gameplay.
This is the same reason they consolidated the church into a single bishop character who would have actual power, and why they made barons into icebox characters. They are otherwise worthless chaff that just exist to fill space. Cutting the pointless elements, allows for a more refined experience which one can actually draw true depth from.
 

DavidYung

Pan of Scepters
4 Badges
Jun 22, 2013
162
615
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings III
You are confusing what depth means. Political depth doesn't just come from having more people. "Middle class" didn't be come a thing till after the game's time period. Feudalism was the government form of the day. If you're here looking for different government representation, you're playing the wrong game. The economic and different classes of fedualism are represented in the abstract. You don't need to flood the player's court with worthless NPC merchants that only exist to fill your court, CK2 suffers from that problem, where you'll have 30 NPCs, and you only know 3 of them, and you only know those three cause RNG made them your friend; not cause they meaningfully contribute to the gameplay.
This is the same reason they consolidated the church into a single bishop character who would have actual power, and why they made barons into icebox characters. They are otherwise worthless chaff that just exist to fill space. Cutting the pointless elements, allows for a more refined experience which one can actually draw true depth from.

I tend to disagree. I can sort of get why you think this is a way to just fill the world with pointless characters. That is why I proposed to have it cut down to a select few Families per realm based on prosperity mechanics. You are offering no alternative, and as a result you shut the door on expanding the game where many others want to see improvements from CK2.

Let me try to explain it a little better. Of course none of us want NPCs to fill up space just because. Rather, we want to enhance the game by introducing something new to the governments system that CK2 clearly lacked: representing landless characters that impacted most governments (some more than others - it goes to show that there are several threads on the ERE, China, Republics, to some extent Theocracies, and in the past on Muslim-World government types). Hell, even a number of European realms have dealings with these kinds of rich non-noble notables and to diversify how different realms play we could make a lot of use from having these non-noble notables around in one form or another.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like you are arguing for just having the barebones Anglo feudal style government wherein all other types of governments are redundant because you don't think that these Families would add enough to the game. Just give the ERE a couple events, right? Make China an off-screen power. Leave Muslim realms feudal. Leave merchant republics broken or barely worth playing. Keep theocracies and republics unplayable. Keep it all abstracted like it was before. Some of us don't think that goes far enough to warrant a sequel.

With all due respect, why do you think it is good enough the way it is? Or could you present a way to make better non-Feudal representation possible, rather than shooting the whole thing down by just having a - as you seem to admit as well - more condensed version of what CK2 had to offer and nothing more? It would be nice to have this around in some form to make the world and its economies and governments more dynamic? In what form would this best suit the game in the long run with more deep, condensed, streamlined game experience in mind?
 

Leivve

Captain
71 Badges
Aug 25, 2016
321
552
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
I tend to disagree. I can sort of get why you think this is a way to just fill the world with pointless characters. That is why I proposed to have it cut down to a select few Families per realm based on prosperity mechanics. You are offering no alternative, and as a result you shut the door on expanding the game where many others want to see improvements from CK2.

I don't need to offer an alternative, cause I'm not proposing to add something.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like you are arguing for just having the barebones Anglo feudal style government wherein all other types of governments are redundant because you don't think that these Families would add enough to the game. Just give the ERE a couple events, right? Make China an off-screen power. Leave Muslim realms feudal. Leave merchant republics broken or barely worth playing. Keep theocracies and republics unplayable. Keep it all abstracted like it was before. Some of us don't think that goes far enough to warrant a sequel.

That's not just accidental misreading of what I said. That is an intentional misrepresentation of what I said. Finding a single mechanic both not in the essence of the game, as well as detrimental to its health is not the same as wanting to purge everything all mechanics from the game. Simply put, the middle class was not a thing at this point in time. There were individuals, not families who had a moderate amount of wealth, but at this point in time Vassal Knights (the second lowest level of nobility, just ahead of household knights,) were richer and of higher status then any merchant could dream of. They can be represented in events, just like the rest of the non-noble class, but their inclusion can only ever serve to detract from what the goal of the game is; dynastic autocratic politics.

  • Feudalism was the de facto government form of Europe, merchant republics were the exceptions that defined that rule.
  • You implying this is incredibly dishonest, the HRE is the embodiment what CK tries to emulate. Appropriate representation of the HRE should be second only to proper representation of "barebones" FRENCH feudalism.
  • China should be an off screen power.
  • Again complete dishonestly your behalf to claim that. Islam deserves to have proper representation, even if they were unplayable like base game CK2, because asymmetrical opposition leads to dynamic gameplay for the player to interact with.
  • They removed Republics for release specifically because they didn't know what to do with them, and I agree. Merchant Republics as we saw them in CK2, weren't particularly compelling with unique gameplay, they may return when the devs have finished the core of the game, and have found an actual niche for them to fill for gameplay, rather then just bronze colored elective.
  • Theocracies should be unplayable, they are the antithesis of what Crusader Kings is. This is a game about Dynasty, not states. You don't play the King of France, you play Don of the Capet family (or I guess house in ck3) who just happen to be the King of France at a given moment. France can burn around you for all you care, so long as it's good for the family. Theocracy besides saying "no kid" thus no dynasty, is also just by it's nature, not a dynastic title; thus incompatible with what the game is about.
That's just your opinion. CK2 is an aged game, that outlived what it should have. It is a master piece, but over the years it has had some many bits and bolts riveted into it, that its age, and the massive pull away from what it was originally intended to be that the core mechanics that are required for the game to function, simply can't fully support future development anymore. If them revamping, and future proofing the system so they can go back, recreate CK2, but properly represent all the ambitions it couldn't itself, while also having everything in place to expand further in the future isn't enough for you, you're expecting to much. Making a squeal is removing broken, or unneeded mechanics just as much as it is making new ones, and expanding on old. Adding more stuff just for the sake of it, is a sure way to worsen the game as a whole.
 

ray243

Colonel
34 Badges
Oct 19, 2010
898
1.460
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Feudalism was the de facto government form of Europe, merchant republics were the exceptions that defined that rule.
If this game is solely about Western Europe, I won't have much of an issue. But Western Europe is only a part of the map, and not the entirety of the map. One of the most populus Empires of Europe and Christianity belongs to the Byzantine Empire. Even some the HRE policies were influenced by the Byzantine imperial model to some degree. You have Otto III trying to model more aspects of his rule in the style of the Byzantine Empire ( in part due to the fact that his mother was a Byzantine princess, and he was supposed to marry yet another Byzantine princess).
 

Leivve

Captain
71 Badges
Aug 25, 2016
321
552
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
If this game is solely about Western Europe, I won't have much of an issue. But Western Europe is only a part of the map, and not the entirety of the map. One of the most populus Empires of Europe and Christianity belongs to the Byzantine Empire. Even some the HRE policies were influenced by the Byzantine imperial model to some degree. You have Otto III trying to model more aspects of his rule in the style of the Byzantine Empire ( in part due to the fact that his mother was a Byzantine princess, and he was supposed to marry yet another Byzantine princess).

Where did I say the Roman Empire shouldn't have their own government form? You are conflating the fact that most of Europe was a feudal with "everything must be feudal," which is especially nonsensical when the point wasn't even to what governments should exist in the game, but to the representation of a social class within it.
 

ray243

Colonel
34 Badges
Oct 19, 2010
898
1.460
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
Where did I say the Roman Empire shouldn't have their own government form? You are conflating the fact that most of Europe was a feudal with "everything must be feudal," which is especially nonsensical when the point wasn't even to what governments should exist in the game, but to the representation of a social class within it.

You can't represent the government system of the Byzantines until you have non-feudal mechanics representing the social classes that made up a huge part of the empire.
 

Leivve

Captain
71 Badges
Aug 25, 2016
321
552
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
You can't represent the government system of the Byzantines until you have non-feudal mechanics representing the social classes that made up a huge part of the empire.

So why are you bringing that up with me? I'm not making the game. You're debating a point that wasn't made. My point was, merchants shouldn't show up as characters cause Europe was feudal, and this era of feudalism didn't have a powerful middle class of merchants.

To equate that to "Byzantium was feudal" is a nonsensical logic leap.
 

pkent

Corporal
31 Badges
Jan 21, 2016
45
1
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Here's the deal. The upper middle class doesn't exist in this game, other than a handful of Lowborn created by pushing a button.

This is a problem, because the upper middle class is the core of every nonfeudal government system that existed in the era, and the lack of any modeling of upper middle class characters sharply limits how you can set up nonfeudal systems. Of particular issue -- the Papacy, China, and the Eastern Roman Empire simply can't be modeled correctly without some mechanic in place to model the bureaucracy, and the upper middle class is the lifeblood of bureaucracy.

paradox, I don't know how you plan to do it, but if you don't take the trouble to model the upper middle class properly, you're going to shoot your own game in the foot in the long run.

I'd like to see Estates in each barony-level holding, that can be bought and are owned by non-landowners who can afford them. This would create a small handful of families in each County that could form a middle class talent pool.

For a bonus, model their ability to serve as merchants, soldiers, priests, agents or diplomats based on their talents in a government and generate revenue to pay and upgrade their estates. But at least have them exist and represent a potential talent and revenue pool.

Instead of "push button get noble" hacks from the previous game, these estate holdiers might then yield talented Lowborns to swell the ranks of feudal and nonfeudal governments alike. Meanwhile, in nonfeudal systems, Counties, Provinces, etc would be assigned as Governors based on an election of Estate holders in Republic, or simply being appointed by the Emperor in an autocracy, with influential nobles and Lowborns being able to exert influence to lobby who gets what.

The above example is to demonstrate just how much one more layer of granularization the middle class would grant to the game and how it would open up models that are not Feudal in this era, Especially, and this is IMHO the big one, it would probably be a better model of Byzantium than feudalizing it.

Also if the devs put some hooks into the game to allow Estates to happen, it would be a huge boon for modders and VASTLY expand the areas and mechanics that could be explored with mods.

Anywho, just a thought, but I think it's a good one. I think it would go a long way toward broadening and deepening the game, and making it much more of a historical grand simulator.

The middle class is essentially mayors/city holders. They are lowborn, non hereditary(for the most part), rich (comparatively). Typically higher skilled and can sometimes end up on the council either of the local lord if not even the kingdom/empire. The primary difference is that the city holders dont typically marry/reproduce systematically. Although I assume this is just a mechanic to keep the character count from getting out of hand.
 

icedt729

前任士官
76 Badges
Dec 22, 2010
1.844
2.411
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
I agree strongly with the idea that there needs to be a kind of representation for the social stratum that doesn't hold any lifelong/hereditary titles or offices, but still have independent wealth and some social capital (and therefore, the chance for social mobility).

The post that @DavidYung quoted gives my idea for representing the Chinese gentry specifically, but similar mechanics could represent similar classes in other societies.

To clarify a bit, that model would revolve around the family patriarch being playable (due to controlling the family estate, a landed title) and the junior kinsmen being unplayable (unless they should get their hands on a landed title of their own somehow). It also calls for a government/laws design that gives rulers a good reason to fill offices with outsiders instead of with members of the high aristocracy.

In order to control the number of families/characters, we could set it up so that these gentry families and their estates only 'spawn' in realms that have some use for them (so that they'll be present in more centralized kingdoms and empires, but not in tribal or hyperfeudal realms) and 'despawn' if those conditions are reversed. Otherwise you would end up with many of these characters sitting around in places where they have nothing interesting to do.