The upper middle class -- the single most fundamental problem with Crusader Kings.

[Imgran]

Here's the deal. The upper middle class doesn't exist in this game, other than a handful of Lowborn created by pushing a button.

This is a problem, because the upper middle class is the core of every nonfeudal government system that existed in the era, and the lack of any modeling of upper middle class characters sharply limits how you can set up nonfeudal systems. Of particular issue -- the Papacy, China, and the Eastern Roman Empire simply can't be modeled correctly without some mechanic in place to model the bureaucracy, and the upper middle class is the lifeblood of bureaucracy.

paradox, I don't know how you plan to do it, but if you don't take the trouble to model the upper middle class properly, you're going to shoot your own game in the foot in the long run.

I'd like to see Estates in each barony-level holding, that can be bought and are owned by non-landowners who can afford them. This would create a small handful of families in each County that could form a middle class talent pool.

For a bonus, model their ability to serve as merchants, soldiers, priests, agents or diplomats based on their talents in a government and generate revenue to pay and upgrade their estates. But at least have them exist and represent a potential talent and revenue pool.

Instead of "push button get noble" hacks from the previous game, these estate holdiers might then yield talented Lowborns to swell the ranks of feudal and nonfeudal governments alike. Meanwhile, in nonfeudal systems, Counties, Provinces, etc would be assigned as Governors based on an election of Estate holders in Republic, or simply being appointed by the Emperor in an autocracy, with influential nobles and Lowborns being able to exert influence to lobby who gets what.

The above example is to demonstrate just how much one more layer of granularization the middle class would grant to the game and how it would open up models that are not Feudal in this era, Especially, and this is IMHO the big one, it would probably be a better model of Byzantium than feudalizing it.

Also if the devs put some hooks into the game to allow Estates to happen, it would be a huge boon for modders and VASTLY expand the areas and mechanics that could be explored with mods.

Anywho, just a thought, but I think it's a good one. I think it would go a long way toward broadening and deepening the game, and making it much more of a historical grand simulator.

 

[Matthias_Wlkp]

Why would the player, member of the aristocracy, care about the middle class?

 

[Imgran]

Why would the player, member of the aristocracy, care about the middle class?

Because the middle class pay his taxes, furnish his soldiers and NCOs, enforce his edicts, and run his government, and Very Bad Things happen when the bourgoisie decides not to do these things?

the career of more than one nobleman was cut short due to failing to maintain a good relationship with his bourgoisie. Generally speaking whenever there's a peasant revolt, when you peel it back to the innermost layer you'll find a pissed off member of the privileged lowborn class.

As for why you should be made to care about the middle class -- because even a token modeling of the upper middle class would make the game far deeper and richer? And because it's a vital key for modeling Republican and Imeperial governments properly rather than renaming feudal mechanics and shoehorning them to fit?

 

[Dlin369]

The rising bourgeoise would be interesting to model, probably with a more expanded republic government/city government. The Burghers growing stronger and stronger could make a late-game management headache, and either help or hinder centralization/absolutism

 

[Denkt]

You have stuff like Flanders which had powerful burghers which even defeated the French in the battle of the golden spurs.

 

[Imgran]

You have stuff like Flanders which had powerful burghers which even defeated the French in the battle of the golden spurs.

And Italy where in some states (Venice springs to mind) the bourgoisie and the nobility merged until they became virtually indistinguishable.

 

[Imgran]

Here's how I picture this working:

Each Barony level holding would have a number of estates based on type of fief (City > Temple > Casle > Tribe) as well as developmental progress and technological advancement, Each Estate would basically represent the local farmland, and would be occupied by a Family.

These Families would pay rent to the Baron, and the revenue would then trickle up in the same way other revenue streams do in CK. The Baron would have the privilege of permitting or not permitting various families to purchase Estates, and throwing out families for offenses (or doing it arbitrarily at the cost of Tyranny)

Members of these Families would then use their talent to earn money and prestige. Skilled diplomats become bureaucrats, skilled stewards become merchants, skilled spies become Agents, etc. they get a series of events that allow them to gain and lose revenue based on their skill. Bankrupted Families can be kicked out of an Estate for no cost and replaced either by generating a new tenant or by inviting one. These tenants would also be the voters in a Republican system, and could join a Noble's court for additional potential revenue streams as a courtier or Commander.

Dissatisfied Tenants could plot to send a letter to the Count and urge him to dismiss the Baron, which would provide a pretext and potentially provoke a peasant revolt if ignored.

Just some ideas of how the mechanics could work. As I said in the OP, the general idea would be to create an upper middle class and allow the possibility of landless Courts, which would permit a much more reasonable modeling of non-feudal government types.

 

[Dlin369]

The minor titles in court getting some expanded flavor, events and powers might also help represent the court better

 

[Imgran]

I could see each court role being asked to pick X number of men to work under them and having modifiers to their success or failure chance based on the relevant skill level of those men, and balancing that with personal loyalty or political opportunity in the way CK2 Conclave did things.

maybe even have the number of assisstants you can have as a court minister be determined by a government technology levels, with vast imperial administrations getting several assistants and low rent feudalism ministries being one dude and maybe a scribe or two.

 

[AndrejK]

And perh

Here's how I picture this working:

Each Barony level holding would have a number of estates based on type of fief (City > Temple > Casle > Tribe) as well as developmental progress and technological advancement, Each Estate would basically represent the local farmland, and would be occupied by a Family.

These Families would pay rent to the Baron, and the revenue would then trickle up in the same way other revenue streams do in CK. The Baron would have the privilege of permitting or not permitting various families to purchase Estates, and throwing out families for offenses (or doing it arbitrarily at the cost of Tyranny)

Members of these Families would then use their talent to earn money and prestige. Skilled diplomats become bureaucrats, skilled stewards become merchants, skilled spies become Agents, etc. they get a series of events that allow them to gain and lose revenue based on their skill. Bankrupted Families can be kicked out of an Estate for no cost and replaced either by generating a new tenant or by inviting one. These tenants would also be the voters in a Republican system, and could join a Noble's court for additional potential revenue streams as a courtier or Commander.

Dissatisfied Tenants could plot to send a letter to the Count and urge him to dismiss the Baron, which would provide a pretext and potentially provoke a peasant revolt if ignored.

Just some ideas of how the mechanics could work. As I said in the OP, the general idea would be to create an upper middle class and allow the possibility of landless Courts, which would permit a much more reasonable modeling of non-feudal government types.

And perhaps if you are in Constantinople, those estate holdings would be tied to concrete titles of the imperial bureaucracy?

 

[TheMind]

The bourgeoisie hasn't existed since the XVII-XIX century.

 

[Arona]

Like estate system. But would be also nice if every unlanded character has like littlemodifer. Peasant, serf, gentry, lord, baronet, landless baron and so one. All statuses would give small income and some statuses also give some prestige. If your peasant status commander serves your family for years maybe his kids are enought rich to buy estate what helps to grow income.

I think estates could also have other role. Esttes owned by middle or high class, could also generate levys so stronger middle class could help real mto get more armys. Middle class coulnt need much managaement just need to keep them happy

 

[ray243]

Like estate system. But would be also nice if every unlanded character has like littlemodifer. Peasant, serf, gentry, lord, baronet, landless baron and so one. All statuses would give small income and some statuses also give some prestige. If your peasant status commander serves your family for years maybe his kids are enought rich to buy estate what helps to grow income.

I think estates could also have other role. Esttes owned by middle or high class, could also generate levys so stronger middle class could help real mto get more armys. Middle class coulnt need much managaement just need to keep them happy

I won't want them to generate levies. The point is to ensure they don't have any real military power. They aren't barons.

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

I've always pictured mayors as the upper middle-class in the game

 

[Ezumiyr]

Of particular issue -- the Papacy, China, and the Eastern Roman Empire simply can't be modeled correctly without some mechanic in place to model the bureaucracy, and the upper middle class is the lifeblood of bureaucracy.

To be fair, those examples are all very unique cases. In most places on the map, it's even debatable whether there was a non-noble upper middle class in the 11th century, and whether it hold that much power. I

Because the middle class pay his taxes, furnish his soldiers and NCOs, enforce his edicts, and run his government, and Very Bad Things happen when the bourgoisie decides not to do these things?

Depends when and where.

The Burghers growing stronger and stronger could make a late-game management headache, and either help or hinder centralization/absolutism

Late game. Exactly.


The evolution of medieval societies that saw the rise of bourgeoisie happens during CK's timeline. And that's problematic. How would the upper middle class be portrayed in game, and how could it evolve through the game? The Estates General were only created at the beginning of the 14th century in France.
What you're essentially suggesting is adding another layer below baronies with "families". Is it really needed? I think it's pretty clear that all this stuff is currently abstracted in CK. New nobles and courtiers appear out of nowhere, yeah. I'm not sure it's a good idea to create a whole new layer the player can basically have no control on just for the purpose of making economy slightly more diverse and providing a pool of characters (that would basically be randomly generated anyway).
All those new characters would be bad for performance and add very little to the game. It's not a bad idea per se (though I still have some reserves when it comes to how it can be portrayed since medieval socities were very diverse and evolved through the era), but I just don't think it's worth it. There are many historical phenomena not portrayed in CK, I just don't see why this one would deserve more to be included.

 

[Arona]

I won't want them to generate levies. The point is to ensure they don't have any real military power. They aren't barons.

Yes they arent barons, but levys are not professional soldiers. Laevys are basically peasant who take up a sword and have some swinging experience before.

In this could be used ck2 population system where settlement population is like 10 000 and 10% can be taken as levys or 1 % cab be takes as levys. If to tranfer that to estates then estates usually had village people working in then doing varios tasks and some income depended on estate economy and as estes had willages around them they have manpower to collect and send to liege.

So estate do not generate manpower for estate master but they collect realm manpower to send liege.


If to take a historiacl approce, then levy raisers did have accsess to all manpower in realm, so middle of forest dwellings were missed. But if that middle of forest dwelling sells wool to estate owner then estate owner can pass a word that liege collects able man for fighting and also can inform liege that nowhere middle of forest there is actually kind on miny settlemnt where you can find extra levys.

 

[Imgran]

The bourgeoisie hasn't existed since the XVII-XIX century.

The upper middle class has always existed.

I've always pictured mayors as the upper middle-class in the game

Except Mayors are baronial level landholders in the game. What Estates would emulate, is the powerful landowning families that Mayors have to wrangle and manage.

 

[Imgran]

Yes they arent barons, but levys are not professional soldiers. Laevys are basically peasant who take up a sword and have some swinging experience before.

In this could be used ck2 population system where settlement population is like 10 000 and 10% can be taken as levys or 1 % cab be takes as levys. If to tranfer that to estates then estates usually had village people working in then doing varios tasks and some income depended on estate economy and as estes had willages around them they have manpower to collect and send to liege.

So estate do not generate manpower for estate master but they collect realm manpower to send liege.


If to take a historiacl approce, then levy raisers did have accsess to all manpower in realm, so middle of forest dwellings were missed. But if that middle of forest dwelling sells wool to estate owner then estate owner can pass a word that liege collects able man for fighting and also can inform liege that nowhere middle of forest there is actually kind on miny settlemnt where you can find extra levys.

Another way Families could raise manpower is by providing the manpower pool for mercenaries, a la Condottierri. Warlike members of a Family could join mercenary bands, risking death for money, or if they're wealthy enough, create one.

 

[Imgran]

and how could it evolve through the game?

This is not complicated. In undeveloped areas the middle class wouldn't have any power and would be small in number. as lands develop, more opportunity to gain money and prestige would be present for Families, and there would be more Families to go around, they would have more money, and would start to be better able to carry out Plots.

Fostering a large population of wealthy families is great for the talent pool, manpower and money, but as they gain enough resources to be able to plot, baron level rulers would have to manage and wrangle them to prevent them from ganging up on him. Alternatively, you could suppress and expel Families, but if you do, your holding will be poorer, with less to offer.

This is where my other idea of Appeals would come into play. Whenever a group of lesser nobles is ruled by a vassal of a still higher noble, they should be able to Appeal to have that noble removed. Basically a nonbinding petition against a hated vassal lord. This would give the lord of the vassal a pretext to revoke his land without penalty although the lower vassal can still refuse and rebel.

What this provides is the ability for powerful Families to raise hell with Barons, and provide a countervailing force against the rise of the bourgoisie in a county (or in other words, a reason not to let them grow unchecked). A Baron who doesn't have the confidence of the Families would be on dangerous ground if the local Count isn't a fan of him, and may have to clean house in the same way an unpopular Count or Duke sometimes has to do.

 

[Bearnest]

Yes! I want to become a latifundist and bribe my way on to power.