The United States: the Spain of HoI?

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Interesting story. There were two other soldiers who stayed fighting until after the war too. They weren't left to stay though, but stayed on their own. They were..

Shoichi Yokoi: He stayed in the jungles of Guam, surviving off of nuts, berries and the such and lived there for 26 years. His rifle had rusted away, so he couldn't fire it at anything. In 1972, two hunters found him in the woods, dressed in clothes that he said he made out of tree bark. He was returned to Japan and lived until 1997, when he died.

Second Lt. Hiroo Onoda: Onoda was assigned to fight in Labang Island in the Philippines. He was leading a small force, but it all got killed in battle. There was him and three others after that. They stayed there, and then WWII ended. They didn't know that it ended, however, as they were deep in a jungle. The Americans sent bombers over, dropping papers into the jungle, saying that the war was over and that they could leave. But, it was believed to have been a trick. One of his fellow soldiers did leave, though, and now there were only three left. In the next few years, the other two were killed, I think by the Philippine police, and he was by himself. They often robbed food from the villages, and so the villagers didn't like them. Finally, on March 5, 1974, they got him to leave and he returned to Japan. Now, he lives at his cattle ranch in Brazil.

Here is a picture of Onoda right after he learned that WWII was over. An officer was sent to order him to return home.

Meiji-Tenno

 

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Ahh yes. I love sitting around, sharing stories which remind us of how great the Japanese were. I also would love to rename my logon to something like Masanobu Tsuji just to honor the noble Japanese war heroes of WW2.:rollseyes:

Please. Glorifying the Japanese soldier in *any* way is truly sickening. The way their average soldiers behaved in the field makes the German soldiers look like volunteers of the Red Cross.

Interesting story. There were two other soldiers who stayed fighting until after the war too. They weren't left to stay though, but stayed on their own. They were..

Shoichi Yokoi: He stayed in the jungles of Guam, surviving off of nuts, berries and the such and lived there for 26 years. His rifle had rusted away, so he couldn't fire it at anything. In 1972, two hunters found him in the woods, dressed in clothes that he said he made out of tree bark. He was returned to Japan and lived until 1997, when he died.

Second Lt. Hiroo Onoda: Onoda was assigned to fight in Labang Island in the Philippines. He was leading a small force, but it all got killed in battle. There was him and three others after that. They stayed there, and then WWII ended. They didn't know that it ended, however, as they were deep in a jungle. The Americans sent bombers over, dropping papers into the jungle, saying that the war was over and that they could leave. But, it was believed to have been a trick. One of his fellow soldiers did leave, though, and now there were only three left. In the next few years, the other two were killed, I think by the Philippine police, and he was by himself. They often robbed food from the villages, and so the villagers didn't like them. Finally, on March 5, 1974, they got him to leave and he returned to Japan. Now, he lives at his cattle ranch in Brazil.

 

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my sisters fatherin law served in the Australian Army in Singapore during ww2.
Though he doesnt say much about his time as POW he has spoken about Singapore and a few problems they faced.
Intelligence. the Brits had no idea what was going on around em at time of the attack.Which for the RA is odd.
Supplies. Water and food was in serious rationing stage while he was there,specially water in such a hot,humid place would make
conditions difficult
The RAF about 150 aircraft there high numbers of trianing AC and 0 Spitfires
1 thing i heard was that Percival didnt want to fight inside the city itself
I wonder if the brits wouldve put up a bigger fight had the already knew how the Japanese were treating POWs,Im of the opinion had they kept fighting the Japanese would have had great difficulty taking it(losses wouldve been highh)

 

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Also someone claiming the japanese to be the best in the world in 41 is way off.
1 Airforce both RAF(UK) and Luftwaffe were by far superior in training experience and equipment .Zero better then me109 or spitfireV. I doubt it.9but since they never faced each other in numbers is hard to judge for sure)
2. Army yr joking the crack forces of the wehrmacht wouldve ate the Japan army in 6 weeks(see France)
3. Navy ..US CVs though only 3 were by far better quality than IPN CVs. They had better damage control(see Yorktown in Coral Sea battle) How she stayed afloat so long is a tribute to the men who attempted to keep in action. They carried more Aircraft than IPN. 84 to about 60-70 on the Ipn cvs.Also PH forced the USN to review strategy, with the battleships either sunk or damaged,the US were forced to depend on there CVs,history speaks from there.Also the amount of Flak(AA) the USN was about to put up against air raids was awesome power.Ive seen footage of what there ships were able to put up. I was staggered that soem aircraft even got through it.
(edit)
Ship i saw burning was the Lexington not Yorktown..fire was started by an engine malfunction
Im of the opinion that playing the US will be the most boring way to go in this game. Your not goin out an invading anyone and until someone actually is silly enough to attack, you could be sitting there along time in a Multiplayer game. Even against AI your not doin alot till december 41(thats 6 long years of yawn)
Serious players will pack up and go play another country.I dont think chatting to Churchill is going to entertain for too long...

 

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I never said that Japan was the best in the world in 1941. I said that Nihon Kaigun was more powerful than the U.S. Navy in 1941. If the Japanese were so weak the whole time, then it is interesting how Winston Churchill recalled after the war (When he easily could've said that the Japanese were really weak and he wasn't afraid at all) that, after he got the phone call that the Prince of Wales was sunk, and the Japanese were defeating British forces in Asia, "I was thankful to be alone. In all the war, I never received a more direct shock. As I turned over and twisted in bed the full horror of the news sank in upon me. Over all this vast expanse of water Japan was supreme, and we everywhere were weak and naked." (Churchill was sleeping, and the phonecall woke him up. That is why he speaks of his bed, in case that sounded a little funny ).

Also, General Yamashita Tomoyuki expected it to take about 100 days to capture Singapore. It took 70. Most of the other areas to be conquered were also captured in faster than expected time. The Philippines did take longer than what was expected, however, but much of that is due to the American and Filipino scouts and the traps that were set (Such as bamboo spikes), which slowed the Japanese forces. And the Battle of Bataan was very long.

As for Singapore, I agree with what you said about more Japanese losses if the British didn't surrender. I believe 50,000(?) men surrendered. If they kept fighting, they certainly would've made a difference. I think that the Japanese would've eventually won, though. Even if the British beat off the first invasion, I believe a larger more powerful one would've been sent. Singapore was a vital point to be captured, and the Japanese wouldn't have just given up on it. But, anyways, those troops definitely could've done some damage, but they also would've suffered bad casualties..

As for playing U.S., I probably agree. And what if nobody attacks you? Maybe there are other ways to be able to join into the war besides for being attacked. Maybe it is possible to eventually convince your people. But, say the Japanese didn't feel like attacking Pearl Harbor or the Philippines. America would be ignored, and perhaps never join (Or not join for a while). Perhaps if bases of their allies are captured, they get closer to joining as well.

Okay, now this thread has been getting way off subject. Let's get back to "Is U.S. the Spain of HoI?".

I don't think the U.S. will be like Spain from EUII. Sure, they'll be powerful, but they won't start getting really powerful until after the war starts. Spain could get many explorers at about 1500, explore to the new world, send massive armies, there, and take the continent. In my first game, I found North America, and within 10 years I owned about one fourth (probably more) of the North American Continent. I don't think that U.S. will be able to do this almost immediately as Spain could. I also think that after U.S. gets to their full power, they will have more trouble conquering Europe, than Spain does conquering North America in EUII. Also, remember that the U.S. player can make some stupid mistakes, and not get to be as powerful as their historical counterparts. But, because of America's industry, they will definitely become very powerful. Impossible to defeat in a prolonged war. Maybe they will have a 1942 scenario, where you begin in 1942 and America is at war. Then, no 6 year wait!

Meiji-Tenno

 

[Derek Pullem]

Originally posted by Aussie Digger
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Im of the opinion that playing the US will be the most boring way to go in this game. Your not goin out an invading anyone and until someone actually is silly enough to attack, you could be sitting there along time in a Multiplayer game. Even against AI your not doin alot till december 41(thats 6 long years of yawn)
Serious players will pack up and go play another country.I dont think chatting to Churchill is going to entertain for too long...

Of course you assume that Japan will attack in 1941 and not 1936. Why?

US still needs to persuade its people that it needs modern armed forces in 1936. What are you going to concentrate on for your national research - tanks, aircraft, the Navy? How are you going to use your economic and financial clout? Can you isolate the Axis diplomatically without offending isolationist opinion back home?

I'd argue that serious players will be intrigued by the possibilities - wham bam players should stick to Japan or Germany

 

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the US can lose;

Sure..the production capacity is there..the transportation capacity is there..but then all that steel and ammo must be put in action 'in the field'.
ANd 1941 and 42 and a number of occasions in 1943 and 1944 showed the Americans as taking incredible high losses.

1)Ships losses reduced only after Sonar got effective (plus much needed tactics)
2) Bomberlosses got reduced from DRAMATIC to STILL BAD (!) after the fighters got droptanks.
3) Remember the beatings of the americans in N-Africa, and Italy ?..you really think the 'punch' can change from zero to hero within a year (between Sicily and Normandy)?
4) Very often I read stories about the Americans only in 30% actually daring to fire on enemy soldiers !! (gunpoint..that is).
This 'chicken' effect has not been noted by any of the other fighting nations .
5) High tank losses versus that of the opponent (what ? 5 shermans for one panther ?).


So..It is mainly the sheer numbers and emphasize on distant firing weapons (artillery, airbombing, etc) that did the war effort of the americans topple the opponents.


Thus, if the homefront would find this out, when the soldiers in the field would realize this ..maybe then; in the game the motivation drops, and the US might be eligible for (partial) negotiations..


And what if Hitler did not declare war on USA in 1941 ??
Roosevelt could NOT declare war on Germany !!

And what if Japan didnot attack PearlHarbour and the Philippines and went STRAIGHT to the oilriches of Dutch East Indies ???
I don't think that Roosevelt would declare war on JApan!

 

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Re: the US can lose;

Originally posted by snailtrailer
Sure..the production capacity is there..the transportation capacity is there..but then all that steel and ammo must be put in action 'in the field'.
ANd 1941 and 42 and a number of occasions in 1943 and 1944 showed the Americans as taking incredible high losses.

1)Ships losses reduced only after Sonar got effective (plus much needed tactics)
2) Bomberlosses got reduced from DRAMATIC to STILL BAD (!) after the fighters got droptanks.
3) Remember the beatings of the americans in N-Africa, and Italy ?..you really think the 'punch' can change from zero to hero within a year (between Sicily and Normandy)?
4) Very often I read stories about the Americans only in 30% actually daring to fire on enemy soldiers !! (gunpoint..that is).
This 'chicken' effect has not been noted by any of the other fighting nations .
5) High tank losses versus that of the opponent (what ? 5 shermans for one panther ?).


So..It is mainly the sheer numbers and emphasize on distant firing weapons (artillery, airbombing, etc) that did the war effort of the americans topple the opponents.


Thus, if the homefront would find this out, when the soldiers in the field would realize this ..maybe then; in the game the motivation drops, and the US might be eligible for (partial) negotiations..


And what if Hitler did not declare war on USA in 1941 ??
Roosevelt could NOT declare war on Germany !!

And what if Japan didnot attack PearlHarbour and the Philippines and went STRAIGHT to the oilriches of Dutch East Indies ???
I don't think that Roosevelt would declare war on JApan!

Hmm.. Very good points here. I agree with the U.S. being able to be defeated too. One of the best parts of HoI will be changing the history.

Meiji-Tenno

 

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..addition

4) Very often I read stories about the Americans only in 30% actually daring to fire on enemy soldiers !! (gunpoint..that is).

..to support this statement;


see this interesting site about a US veteran soldier and his refreshing critical view:
www and rinfret.com/ww2.html#anchor161602

"..A famous military historian (S. L. A. Marshall [SLAM Marshall] ) has said that no more than about 1/3 of all men in combat fire their weapons. I agree with him since that was my experience..."

"..in another attack much later on he was brutally wounded and lost his entire left shoulder to enemy fire. Why did he refuse to fire his rifle? If you fired you would draw enemy fire and so the way to make sure you did not draw enemy fire was to refuse to fire your weapon.."


something interesting as well:
"..The German military played a thoroughly dirty war and there was no limit to atrocities which I personally witnessed:
In Normandy, they hung captured American GI's from telephone poles with their penises stuffed into their mouths.
They garroted American POW's.
They machine gunned to death captured Americans after they had tied their hands together behind their backs with wire.
As they retreated they destroyed everything in sight whether it made sense or not. They destroyed out of vengeance and not for military purposes.
They hung French resistance fighters and French men and French women from the nearest lamp posts.
ASIDE: The GI's I knew in combat (officers and non-coms as well as enlisted men) scrupulously followed the Geneva convention. I cannot and do not speak for the Armed Forces but I can say that I never knew anything but
decency towards the enemy by my outfit, our officers and enlisted men..."

there is another HOIthread about how the german soldier was 'the best soldier'..
I wonder if the supporters of that view have included above steady atrocities..?

 

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add on II

....

"..4) Very often I read stories about the Americans only in 30% actually daring to fire on enemy
soldiers !! (gunpoint..that is).
This 'chicken' effect has not been noted by any of the other fighting nations . .."
..In fairness...the fact that there are reports about this with the american forces in WW2, and nothing published (!) about the other forces, should not lead automatically to the conclusion that the other soldiers fared better.
..though I assume so..
I guess it is proportionate to the level of how much the soldier actually hates his opponent (as a nation) and knows why he is in this war anyway..

..we can put it under 'motivation %' in the game...