The United States: the Spain of HoI?

[King]

Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno


Yes, I see your points. The Japanese were advantageous in the air, and struck some heavy blows on the British with the sinking of the Prince of Wales and several other warships. A main problem for the British was that they were more concerned with defending the Isles from a feared German invasion. And their greatest ground, sea, and air units were in the West. They had a smaller amount of such skilled units in Malaya. Many of the ones that were there before had been called to Europe for extra defence. The Americans could've helped (Remember, this was after Pearl Harbor) but they probably wouldn't because they would've sooner supplied their own islands that were being attacked by the Japanese, plus they would have to pass through hostile territory to reach Singapore. For the Americans to make a difference here, the British would've had to beat the Japanese out of Malaya, forcing them to re-supply, then the U.S. would have to fight their way through to Singapore (Passing the Philippines, which I think they would've tried to save sooner than Singapore if they got that far) and then help the British. The English forces would probably also need to be reinforced by Indian squadrons, along with some fresh troops, supplies, aircraft, and possibly some ships from England. This could probably be done in about the time it took Yamashita to get his forces well supplied. But then, the Japanese probably would supply faster, fearing that the British would get resupplied and get help from the Americans. They would probably also bombard the area to harrass the British forces. The Japanese would probably also get reinforced with fresh troops, so the Japanese would still probably have a better chance for victory here. Especially because Yamashita is also usually thought of as a superior general to Percival, and the Japanese would probably be ready for an attack before the British were fully prepared. The American and British reinforcements would probably arrive during the fight, and perhaps keep it going on longer. The Japanese would call for more supplies and reinforcements, and in a few weeks (probably closer to two months, depending on how good the Allies reinforced ), Singapore would probably still fall. Very interesting scenario, by the way, King.

Meiji-Tenno

I think first things first here, Percival is no match for Yamashita. Percival was a highly rated staff officer who just could not take the hard decisions, Yamashita is one of the best Japanese Generals of the war. So if the British were to have any chance of stopping Yamashita first advance, Pericival is not in Singapore. Someone else has to be commanding the Imperial army. Let's say Montgomery is there. He would of put some back bone in the defenders and got rid of people like Bennet, this probably the only hope of stopping the ifrst advance. Even then Yamashita has, as you point out, several high cards, shorter supply lines, better troops (the Japanese troops who fough in the Malaya campaign considered themselves amoungst the elite of the Imperial Japanese army, the same can not be said of British and Imperial soldiers, many of whom were newly raised conscripts), also better equipment (like tanks) and most of all they knew how to fight in the Jungle. If we look at Burma as an example, it took Slim about a year to get his troops comfortable in the jungle and believing that they could take on the Japanese man to man. So in order for the Commonwealth to make a success of Singapore it needs to be held for about a year. This is where the problems begin. Japan by holding Sumatra has a dagger pointed at the throat of the Britsh supply lines. To stop this Britain would need a huge investment in fighters just to stop the Japanese airforce strangling the defenders (nevermind the IJN). The problem for the British is where do they come from. The Germans are still involved in low grade bombing of the British Isles requiring fighters there. Then even if the fighters could be found then Rommel goes on the rampage in the Western Desert in the Sring of '42, putting more preasure on Briths resources. The only hope is for the Japanese to pick somewhere else to draw their resources off.

However Singapore is in such a key location you could see it actually helping the Japanese, by holding out. With Singapore still needing to be reduced would the Japanese really go after Midway? The defence of the home Islands is of course important but Singapore location is such that it could prevent the Japanese getting all that lovely oil back from NEI. You could see the Japanese swinging their carrier forces against Singapore to reduce it once and for all. With what several hundred extra planes, being flown by some of the finest pilots the Japanese produced it is now a major mircle required for the British. The more I think about it an alternative would be to stage a Dunkirk style operation in the Spring of '42 this is one thing the British army actually excells at and might be sucessful. Certianly if the 130,000 troops didn't march into capitivty then it could only help the British.

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by King


I think first things first here, Percival is no match for Yamashita. Percival was a highly rated staff officer who just could not take the hard decisions, Yamashita is one of the best Japanese Generals of the war. So if the British were to have any chance of stopping Yamashita first advance, Pericival is not in Singapore. Someone else has to be commanding the Imperial army. Let's say Montgomery is there. He would of put some back bone in the defenders and got rid of people like Bennet, this probably the only hope of stopping the ifrst advance. Even then Yamashita has, as you point out, several high cards, shorter supply lines, better troops (the Japanese troops who fough in the Malaya campaign considered themselves amoungst the elite of the Imperial Japanese army, the same can not be said of British and Imperial soldiers, many of whom were newly raised conscripts), also better equipment (like tanks) and most of all they knew how to fight in the Jungle. If we look at Burma as an example, it took Slim about a year to get his troops comfortable in the jungle and believing that they could take on the Japanese man to man. So in order for the Commonwealth to make a success of Singapore it needs to be held for about a year. This is where the problems begin. Japan by holding Sumatra has a dagger pointed at the throat of the Britsh supply lines. To stop this Britain would need a huge investment in fighters just to stop the Japanese airforce strangling the defenders (nevermind the IJN). The problem for the British is where do they come from. The Germans are still involved in low grade bombing of the British Isles requiring fighters there. Then even if the fighters could be found then Rommel goes on the rampage in the Western Desert in the Sring of '42, putting more preasure on Briths resources. The only hope is for the Japanese to pick somewhere else to draw their resources off.

However Singapore is in such a key location you could see it actually helping the Japanese, by holding out. With Singapore still needing to be reduced would the Japanese really go after Midway? The defence of the home Islands is of course important but Singapore location is such that it could prevent the Japanese getting all that lovely oil back from NEI. You could see the Japanese swinging their carrier forces against Singapore to reduce it once and for all. With what several hundred extra planes, being flown by some of the finest pilots the Japanese produced it is now a major mircle required for the British. The more I think about it an alternative would be to stage a Dunkirk style operation in the Spring of '42 this is one thing the British army actually excells at and might be sucessful. Certianly if the 130,000 troops didn't march into capitivty then it could only help the British.

Yes, good points. But, as for jungle warfare, I thought that the Japanese troops weren't well-trained for it either. Wasn't that a problem for the soldiers in some of the tropical places at first? But then, after they were captured, troops were better there and could defend quite well. But still, many suffered and died of heat and jungle disease. In New Guinea, many many Japanese soldiers died of jungle diseases and could not fight in the heat (Same with the Allied soldiers). But, the Japanese army had superior training to the British ones in the area, and they also acted to be more adaptable. Some examples are the uses of elephants in the southeastern Asia region. I believe the troops and officers were trained to strategize like this, since they were going to be fighting in many different climates. That was hard on many soldiers. Some went from cold Manchuria to some burning Pacific isle.

I wasn't trying to say you were wrong or anything. Just asking about the jungle warfare. I am not sure of it myself, but thought from books that I have read that the men in Malaya were not too experienced (A little from areas northeast of Malaya, but not much..) in jungle warfare. Thanks!

 

[King]

Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno


Yes, good points. But, as for jungle warfare, I thought that the Japanese troops weren't well-trained for it either. Wasn't that a problem for the soldiers in some of the tropical places at first? But then, after they were captured, troops were better there and could defend quite well. But still, many suffered and died of heat and jungle disease. In New Guinea, many many Japanese soldiers died of jungle diseases and could not fight in the heat (Same with the Allied soldiers). But, the Japanese army had superior training to the British ones in the area, and they also acted to be more adaptable. Some examples are the uses of elephants in the southeastern Asia region. I believe the troops and officers were trained to strategize like this, since they were going to be fighting in many different climates. That was hard on many soldiers. Some went from cold Manchuria to some burning Pacific isle.

I wasn't trying to say you were wrong or anything. Just asking about the jungle warfare. I am not sure of it myself, but thought from books that I have read that the men in Malaya were not too experienced (A little from areas northeast of Malaya, but not much..) in jungle warfare. Thanks!

When it comes to Jungle fighting the British soldiers had even worse training than the Japanese. Also the Japnese being more of light infantry amry were better organised than the British when it came to fighting in places with few roads. Not to say that the Japnese did not have there problems fighting in the jungle (Japan is not famous for its Jungles after all) just fewer problems than the British did.

The real problem the Japnese had in New Guinea was supplies. They came over a high mountain range with only one narrow trail and a non existant supply line. The natives were far more willing to help the Australians than the Japanese. So the Australian troops had an army of bearers helping them out, the Japanese had to carry everything themselves. In the end it was the resistance of the Australians that put the Japnese behind schedual and forced them to retreat for want of supplies.(There are stories of Japnese soldiers resorting to canbalism food was so short, I saw an interview with one Japanese veteran of the New Guinea fighting who said it happened).With no food the Japnese troops had no choice but to retreat. Even then they were not far from Port Moseby when the they could not go on, New Guinea was a fairly close run thing. A bit less fight from the Australian troops and the Japnese forces were in with a chance.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Source material for fall of Singapore

Good site I found that says that Yamashita trained his men specifically for jungle warfare for a year before the campaign

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by King


When it comes to Jungle fighting the British soldiers had even worse training than the Japanese. Also the Japnese being more of light infantry amry were better organised than the British when it came to fighting in places with few roads. Not to say that the Japnese did not have there problems fighting in the jungle (Japan is not famous for its Jungles after all) just fewer problems than the British did.

The real problem the Japnese had in New Guinea was supplies. They came over a high mountain range with only one narrow trail and a non existant supply line. The natives were far more willing to help the Australians than the Japanese. So the Australian troops had an army of bearers helping them out, the Japanese had to carry everything themselves. In the end it was the resistance of the Australians that put the Japnese behind schedual and forced them to retreat for want of supplies.(There are stories of Japnese soldiers resorting to canbalism food was so short, I saw an interview with one Japanese veteran of the New Guinea fighting who said it happened).With no food the Japnese troops had no choice but to retreat. Even then they were not far from Port Moseby when the they could not go on, New Guinea was a fairly close run thing. A bit less fight from the Australian troops and the Japnese forces were in with a chance.

I just wrote a huge reply to this.. But there were too many smilies and when I went back, it had deleted what I wrote..

Anyways, I said stuff about the warfare in New Guinea and that I heard of the battles fought there. I also once heard of that cannibalism thing. The supply to the troops there got really bad, and they had to eat the other soldiers who died from disease Yuck, diseased people.. Or maybe the ones that were eaten just died or were killed. I do not know much about it, or its historicity. But, if a soldier said that it happened, then it is possible.

Good site I found that says that Yamashita trained his men specifically for jungle warfare for a year before the campaign

Thank you very much!
I wonder if Jungle Warfare will be a research in HoI..

Meiji-Tenno

 

[unmerged(8622)]

I feel the need to throw in my two cents about this Singapore scenario...

I think defending the Malaya Peninsula is hard enough without adquate air cover or a fleet, considering the geography of the little jutting, pinky-finger of Indonesia.
The British would have fallen one way or another, they just werent prepared to the point to defend everything they had.

Frederick the Great was to have said : "He who dares to try to defend everything, will certainly end up defending nothing at all"

 

[vertinox]

Originally posted by Chuikov
In these circumstances, how can a player-controlled United States lose? Where's the challenge? The main hindrance I can see is the Democratic government and all of the anti-war sentiment, but once that's gone I imagine a game as the U.S. would get pretty unchallenging.

Or have I missed something?

Actually you missed the fact that the USA only Suffered 600,000 on both fronts (i can't remember if that is dead and/or wounded)... Pacific and Europe...

While Germany suffered 2,000,000 dead wounded while the Soviet Union Suffered 10,000,000

Also keep in mind that the USA never directly faced the brunt of the Japanese or German military in direct sense... Had the US had to fight the 2 million troops in Japanese troops in Machuria or the German Army fighting on the Ost Front I'm sure they would have had a tougher time...

Think about this... What if the German army had taken Moscow in 1941? And with Stalin out of the picture and with only a one front war (albeit the Desert war) and with the Russian resources to boot do you think it would have been as easy for the USA to win the war alone?

Not to say that the USA could not have won without the USSR, but the USA would have higher casualties and a harder time defeating Germany.

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Re: Re: The United States: the Spain of HoI?

Originally posted by vertinox


Actually you missed the fact that the USA only Suffered 600,000 on both fronts (i can't remember if that is dead and/or wounded)... Pacific and Europe...

While Germany suffered 2,000,000 dead wounded while the Soviet Union Suffered 10,000,000

Also keep in mind that the USA never directly faced the brunt of the Japanese or German military in direct sense... Had the US had to fight the 2 million troops in Japanese troops in Machuria or the German Army fighting on the Ost Front I'm sure they would have had a tougher time...

Think about this... What if the German army had taken Moscow in 1941? And with Stalin out of the picture and with only a one front war (albeit the Desert war) and with the Russian resources to boot do you think it would have been as easy for the USA to win the war alone?

Not to say that the USA could not have won without the USSR, but the USA would have higher casualties and a harder time defeating Germany.

Yes, good points. I am sure many people will try this in HoI. I would like to see a successful Barbarossa.

I think defending the Malaya Peninsula is hard enough without adquate air cover or a fleet, considering the geography of the little jutting, pinky-finger of Indonesia.

The British would have fallen one way or another, they just werent prepared to the point to defend everything they had.

Yes, I don't think that the British could've won there either. We were just discussing possibilities on what would've happened. Singapore was a vital position and the Japanese wouldn't easily give up in attacking it. Even if they had been beaten out of Malaya the first time, an even larger attack surely would've taken place. The British also wouldn't have supplied Singapore very much, if at all, as they would be using their power in Europe.

Frederick the Great was to have said : "He who dares to try to defend everything, will certainly end up defending nothing at all"

Great quote by Frederick the Great.

 

[Galleblære]

Maybe you should all visit singapore, and take a look at the remnants of the old forts, on Sentosa etc.

It was said that Singapore was impossible to take by a frontal assult, that I still believe. But they didnt thinkt he japs were gonna be able to sneak in the "back door", as the malaysian peninsula was deemed to difficult to pull military forces through.

But lets just look at some basic reasosn why Singapore fell:

-Japanese was able to cross over the canal (via bridge) from Malaysia to Singapore without being noticed.
-The Japanese were almost out of ammo. What new ammo and resources they got, were from retreating british forces.
-The Japanese were afraid the battle of Singapore would turn into an ugly, bloody street fight, where they were bound to lose. However, the infamous Percival was afraid of the same thing, and avoided this.
-Finally, Percival surrendered to a force less than a tenth of his own, that was almost out of ammo and food.

Several historians and experts in Singapore are without doubt that the initial attack could have quite easily been repelled had proper safeguards and management been in place. Both manpower, ammo and resources counted in British favor.

Had the japanese then been driven back, it would have been even harder for them to make a second attempt on Singapore, and as someone else said, the british really wanted to hold on to Singapore.

As for the loss of Prince of Wales and other ships, it seems that the japanese fighters flew so low, that the guns on the ships could not hit them, and the result was a dead give-in.

 

[King]

The one thing the British lacked was water. A licky hit by the Japanese had destroyed the water cisterns.

 

[unmerged(5261)]

Yeah, the "battle" for Singapore is probably one of the lowest points in Brittish history............
20th century history, that is.
I wonder why they weren't expecting a Japanesse attack.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Originally posted by Siegebreaker
Yeah, the "battle" for Singapore is probably one of the lowest points in Brittish history............
20th century history, that is.
I wonder why they weren't expecting a Japanesse attack.

Actually what makes it worse is that the British did recognise the possibility, all be it rather late. That's why the garrison and the air force was supposed to be reinforced before war with Japan broke out

 

[King]

Percival as a Staff officer had been sent to Malaya in 1938 (I think) there he was devise a plan for the defence of the colony. His assumtion was that any aatcker would either cross over form Thailand or land amphibous forces in Northern Malaya. Oddly enough he forgot all of this when he came to organise the defence himself.

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by King
The one thing the British lacked was water. A licky hit by the Japanese had destroyed the water cisterns.

I didn't know of that. Thanks!

I once read that the Japanese had a hot air balloon hovering over Singapore. There were two soldiers in it, one with a walkie-talkie, and the other with binoculars. They told the Japanese artillery where to fire. The British couldn't use their anti-air artillery against the balloon because it was all aimed over the water. So, they all just sat there watching the Japanese balloon giving artillery orders. I think all of their (The British) planes were gone at this time. So they couldn't use them either.

Meiji-Tenno

 

[Galleblære]

Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno


I didn't know of that. Thanks!

I once read that the Japanese had a hot air balloon hovering over Singapore. There were two soldiers in it, one with a walkie-talkie, and the other with binoculars. They told the Japanese artillery where to fire. The British couldn't use their anti-air artillery against the balloon because it was all aimed over the water. So, they all just sat there watching the Japanese balloon giving artillery orders. I think all of their (The British) planes were gone at this time. So they couldn't use them either.

Meiji-Tenno

..Then why not use some high powered machine guns to take it out? ( I assume they were less than 3 km up in the air..)

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by Galleblære


..Then why not use some high powered machine guns to take it out? ( I assume they were less than 3 km up in the air..)

I don't remember all of the facts.. Sorry!

I just remember that the British couldn't do anything about it. Perhaps the area that the balloon was in..


Meiji-Tenno

 

[unmerged(5261)]

Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno


I don't remember all of the facts.. Sorry!

I just remember that the British couldn't do anything about it. Perhaps the area that the balloon was in..


Meiji-Tenno

Humm, are you sure of that story?
Is it from a history book?

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by Siegebreaker


Humm, are you sure of that story?
Is it from a history book?

Actually, it was from a British history show that I once saw. And it showed a movie clip of the Japanese soldiers in the balloon.

Meiji-Tenno

 

[unmerged(8017)]

Here is an interesting fact. It dose not have a lot to do with the discussion but I wonder if it will be shown in the game somehow. When the Japanese where retreating from islands in the Pacific they almost always left behind a couple soldiers, usually the biggest and meanest they have, to fight a guerilla war. Their orders where to kill forever (!) they where not aloud to kill them selves in dishonor and they where to die before they surrendered. A couple of these guys where found in the 1970 (!) and had been killing every one they seen for the last 30 years, still thinking their was a war! The one that got big attention over here was a 6''7 ex-convict who liked picking up his enemies by their head and shaking them till their neck snapped. We had to send his former commander, who was in California, to this small island in the middle of no where to tell him the war was over and relieve him of his duties.
PS Meiji, it was Shotokan (thanks for helping with the spelling), and from what I understand most techniques are for ripping and tearing out important body parts.

 

[Lethke]

That sounds more like the script of some bad action movie to me.

And besides the Japanese didn't retreat or surrender very much during the war. Only near the end they started to surrender.