The United States sucks at war, great at peace

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Abdul Goatherd

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So a hypothesis, perhaps provocative this week. But I'm sure many of you have heard the common American refrain/lament that the "US wins the war, but loses the peace".

Upon reflection, however, it seems that the opposite is usually the case - the US tends to come away with a much better peace treaty than their military performance or position warrants.

War of Independence of 1775 - Washington was a famously bad general, terrible tactician, lost more battles than won, etc. This is only partly excused in that his army was basically bleh. It is no secret that, militarily, it was the French who won this war. But the Americans came out of the war with a sweet peace treaty in 1783 that basically gave them (almost) everything they wanted. So it was really won by American diplomats (both in Paris and London) than by anything the American military did in the field.

War of 1812 is even more obvious - the US lost - and lost badly - in almost every military encounter, with the peak humiliation of getting their capital burned down. But they get an incredibly favorable peace treaty at Ghent, totally unjustified by the military situation. Indeed, the 1814 Treaty of Ghent was much more favorable to the US than the 1783 Treaty of Paris. Massive diplomatic victory.

Mexican-American War of 1846 - OK, US did win the encounters militarily. But its military position at war's end was actually rather weak. The US army may have been in Mexico City, but it was far away from supply lines and in danger of being cut off and isolated there. Winfield Scott knew he was in trouble, that he would soon be facing a guerrilla war, and demanded a peace treaty that extricated him out of it. So despite the complaints of the hawkish government, the US was actually lucky to get what they wanted at that moment. If the war had gone longer, the military situation would have turned against them.

Spanish-American War of 1898 - US gets more territory in the peace treaty with Spain than the US military had actually conquered.

World War I - US military participation too little too late too limited to be of military significance, yet gets an outsized role at Versailles, with Wilson's 13 points being a massive influence on the treaty terms. Wilson gets much of what he wants - mitigation of terms, nation-state principle, League of Nations, etc. So another diplomatic victory disproportionate to actual military contribution.

World War II - OK, US had a significant role here. But of course the lion's share of the military victory (at least in Europe) goes to the Soviet Union. And Britain was not chopped liver either. Despite neocon propaganda to the contrary, in the settlement at Yalta, the US gave nothing away - it got to hold on to all its gains. Soviets also held their gains, but there was nothing the US could do to prevent that - the US gave nothing away. Finally, compared to the other allies it was a relatively low-cost victory for US - Brits & French lost empires, Soviets lost massive numbers, all their economies in tatters, while the US came out of it relatively unscathed, wealthier than ever and politically on top of the world. So we can say the resulting peace gains (compared to military cost) was relatively quite more favorable to the US than anyone else.

Korean War - US didn't win it militarily. Fought to a standstill. But the US's political goal - return to status quo ante - was achieved in the resulting "peace". So in a sense, it got all it wanted in the end without actually defeating North Korea.

Vietnam War - US lost the war militarily. No discussion there. But the peace was actually favorable relative to the military position - that is, the 1973 Paris Peace Accords were a victory comparatively - it gave the US adequate time for a relatively orderly disengagement and withdrawl of its troops. So US diplomats once again fared better than US military.

Cold War - US "won" the "war" with the Soviet Union without any military engagements - US military never defeated the Soviet military. US diplomatic supremacy confirmed.

Gulf War of 1991 - US won both military and the resulting peace. US was not aiming to topple Saddam Hussein. Got what it wanted.

So next estimates, jury still out:

Afghanistan War of 2001 - ?

Iraq War of 2003 - ?.
 
Last edited:

IsadorBG

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So the last real war the US lost on the field is1812. Damn if that is sucking at warring I don't what to say about rotw.

Seriously what Nation has a better record in the last two century ? Maybe the UK and only them.

After the 60's the US got the "inward perfection" modifier which among other things means they lost their spine for warring (not that their were much to begin with).
Got to nerf OP country afterall.

Also how did the US win the cold war diplomatically? Except if Gorbachev was a CIA cover agent and if then I would the first to praise the American agencies.
And with no military engagement ? Did my teacher lied to me when they said that the Korean and Vietnam war were part of the Cold War and a bunch of non-sense related to some containment thingy or whatever.
And how do you win militarly a war that is not a war anyway ? So confusing.
 

Galaahd

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So the last real war the US lost on the field is1812. Damn if that is sucking at warring I don't what to say about rotw.

You forgot Vietnam.
 

Galaahd

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I dare say that diplomatically their involvement in Iraq has been disastrous.

Now the country has fallen under Iranian influence and American influence in the Middle East is overall at an historical low.
 

IsadorBG

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You forgot Vietnam.

Well the US was winning the war "militarly". But because of inward perfection they got toO much war exhaustion and had to white peace like loosers and leave South Vietnam to its fate.

A good case of great art war suck at peace that the US has been demostrating ever since.

Best example being Iraq and Afghanistan.
 

Giob

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Well the US was winning the war "militarly".
The USA was losing the war both politically AND militarily. There was never the possibility that they could have staged a full-on invasion and occupation of the northern half of the country, regardless of the homefront.
 

IsadorBG

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The USA was losing the war both politically AND militarily. There was never the possibility that they could have staged a full-on invasion and occupation of the northern half of the country, regardless of the homefront.

Huh ? That never was the goal of the Vietnam war. It was protecting the south from a vietcong take over and the military did the job. alas it seems people were not informed that wars are a hard thing.

If the US was losing militarly then please give some defeats or even places where the US had to retreat against the might of the vietcong because that's what military defeats mean.
 
Last edited:

Giob

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If the US was losing militarly then please give some defeats or even places where the US had to retreat against the might of the vietcong because that's what military defeats mean.

No, that's not its meaning. Losing a war militarily means that there are no military acts you can take that will lead you either to victory or a draw. And that's the whole point, for the USA even attempting to winter the conflict out by staying on "their" part of the border would lead to defeat. Besides, there are plenty of USA military defeats to the Vietcong/NVA, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to post anything besides Wikipedia article, so I'll pass with the examples.
 

IsadorBG

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No, that's not its meaning. Losing a war militarily means that there are no military acts you can take that will lead you either to victory or a draw. And that's the whole point, for the USA even attempting to winter the conflict out by staying on "their" part of the border would lead to defeat. Besides, there are plenty of USA military defeats to the Vietcong/NVA, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to post anything besides Wikipedia article, so I'll pass with the examples.

Well then that at least proves that the US was not losing the war militarly. As the vietcong were neither winning territory on the south or even draw.

As for defeat sorry I meant crucial defeat. There are of course up and downs in a war. I was not arguing that the US was winning a crushing victory against the vietcong but that they were neither losing ground or dealt crushing defeats.

Quite undewelming performance against an army that has a defensive objective, don't you think?

In fact it was the US who was dealing the crushing victories and regaining territories. If that's not militarly winning a war especially when you are on defense! I do not know what is.
 
Last edited:

Giob

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Well then that at least proves that the US was not losing the war militarly.

Sorry, what part of my post are you referring to with "that"? Because I wrote something completely different.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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So the last real war the US lost on the field is1812. Damn if that is sucking at warring I don't what to say about rotw.

Seriously what Nation has a better record in the last two century ? Maybe the UK and only them.

After the 60's the US got the "inward perfection" modifier which among other things means they lost their spine for warring (not that their were much to begin with).
Got to nerf OP country afterall.

Heh, heh. You seem to have fallen for the myth that I'm proposing to dispel. That is, the American myth the US "wins war, loses peace" That is quite mistaken.

While the title is written to be eye-catching, the proposition is all about relative terms. The US has gotten much better peace treaties & postwar terms than their actual military achievement has warranted.

Most other countries tend not to be so lucky.

Also how did the US win the cold war diplomatically?

*Shrug* Cold War was won. The US military fought not a single battle against the Soviet military. I'd call it a diplomatic victory.

Marshall Plan, NATO, UN, arms race, Berlin blockade, Cuban missile crisis, decades of ideological & consumerist propaganda, etc. were all diplomatic achievements that fed into it.

Did my teacher lied to me when they said that the Korean and Vietnam war were part of the Cold War and a bunch of non-sense related to some containment thingy or whatever.

Kinda. Korean War was with North Korea & China and Vietnam War was with Viet Cong and North Vietnam. There were no Soviet military units there.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Well the US was winning the war "militarly".

No, the US lost the Vietnam War militarily. You're confusing military victory with set battles.

By that token, Washington lost most of his battles during the Revolutionary War. Nonetheless, the war was won.

A good case of great art war suck at peace that the US has been demostrating ever since.

And that's the misleading myth that needs to be dispelled.
 

Giob

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No military Act that will lead to a win or a draw.

That works well with the vietcong situation. Nothing they could do militarly could achieve their objective (conquering the south).

Not against the US of A

The North needs to conquer the South. The USA needs to "defend" the South. The USA chooses to:
- Invade the North; result: DEFEAT.
- Do nothing and wait for the North to come; result: DEFEAT.

The USA has no military options which will avoid defeat = MILITARY DEFEAT.
 

dragoon9105

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As far as combat performance the US military did just fine in Vietnam. The outcomes of wars are determined by other factors however, not combat performance or even fulfilling objectives.

It was simply not worth continuing the War, the United States was not thrown back into the sea, they left becuase there was no realistic way to stop the war, as the South Vietnamese continued to fail at establishing any kind of Order in the wake of the Americans. Since the United States wasn't about to colonize the region, fighting just becomes a sort of futile gesture. The United States could have stayed indefinitely and eventually won, but it simply wasn't worth it. In such a case winning the war ultimately leaves you worse off than if you just left.
 
Last edited:

krieger11b

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The North needs to conquer the South. The USA needs to "defend" the South. The USA chooses to:
- Invade the North; result: DEFEAT.
- Do nothing and wait for the North to come; result: DEFEAT.

The USA has no military options which will avoid defeat = MILITARY DEFEAT.
Invading the North would have been easier than defending the South, it's much more flat and less dense jungles there. The problem is the fear it would turn into another Korean war if China did the same thing again.
 

Avernite

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This compares, over the last 200 years, to someone like the Netherlands:

- Napoleonic wars: overrun by whichever side won around, still gets a mostly status quo peace (swapping Belgium for the Cape & Ceylon proved a poisoned chalice, sure, but it should be a relative draw).

- Belgian independence war: runs away like a chicken when a real army shows (the French), still - probably about even performance on diplomacy and war.

- WW1: doesn't need to fight, doesn't lose; pretty great at peace there.

- WW2: military catastrophes on every possible front, diplomacy (and Allies) secures status quo peace.

- Indonesian independence war: basically Vietnam, with a peace that *should* have given plenty options for further meddling (but since the country and the USA didn't feel like further Dutch meddling, the diplomatic good result got no follow-up).

So in short, if you try almost everyone looks good. Even for Germany I could probably cook such a thing up ;)
 

dragoon9105

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Well most wars after 1850 for Western Europeans tend to end somewhat in a Status Quo as far as land is concerned. The Time of large land grabs and empire building rapidly faded away from then until modern day. You can blame Ideology replacing Empire as the fashionable thing for foreign policy.
 
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Pyoro

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Eh, no country is inherently good or bad at anything. Generals, warfare and such changed too often for any meaningful generalization. As for diplomacy, the same applies. Usually "success" has something to do with economic influence of some kind, which explains why the US "lately" could pretty much do whatever the heck they wanted.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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- Belgian independence war: runs away like a chicken when a real army shows (the French), still - probably about even performance on diplomacy and war.

While Belgium has its issues, how on earth is losing Belgian provinces anything but a loss?

So in short, if you try almost everyone looks good. Even for Germany I could probably cook such a thing up ;)

Hm. I suspect you don't understand the exercise. Or at least you don't understand the American myth I am referring to.

Well most wars after 1850 for Western Europeans tend to end somewhat in a Status Quo as far as land is concerned. The Time of large land grabs and empire building rapidly faded away from then until modern day. You can blame Ideology replacing Empire as the fashionable thing for foreign policy.

Say what? Are you sure you're familiar with post-1850 history?

Eh, no country is inherently good or bad at anything. Generals, warfare and such changed too often for any meaningful generalization. As for diplomacy, the same applies. Usually "success" has something to do with economic influence of some kind, which explains why the US "lately" could pretty much do whatever the heck they wanted.

Yes. But the point is there is a prevalent American myth of "win war, lose peace". It overestimates American military achievements, and underestimates its soft power. It fits in with the American view of themselves as a sleeping giant, naive in foreign affairs - all those crafty foreigners outsmarting our doe-eyed politicians and getting "the better of us" in negotiations and post-war settlements. When in truth, the track record is that the US has usually gotten the better of them.
 
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