The United States should be nearly impossible to conquer

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Ixal

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Who has the best equipment , best training , most motivation is of little importance in an invasion of the USA...

an invasion of USA I all about the Logistics and frankly there is no possible way that even with all of the major powers working together would they be able to achieve a logistical superiority in order to maintain an army that can take ground In the USA.

Not really. Assuming Japan and Germany could achieve dominance in their respective oceans they would have enough capability to take the coast of the US, using nearby islands a as a jumpoff point (harder in the pacific than the atlantic). And once the US loses the coast it is done for as without those industrial centers it could not maintain fighting capability. And by the time they created enough industry there the coasts would be thouroughly reinforced.
 
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Kazansky22

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While I think that inreality invading the US by anyone in the 1930s/1940s is pretty much impossible. Not to mention maintaining momentum on such an invasion nearly impossible.

At the same time I think alot of things would be nearly impossible in that timeframe. But I still want to do them. For gameplays sake, for funs sake and for replayabilities sake.
 
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sterrius

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US strenght are only 1 really.

2-> The capacity to replenish losses.

US don´t have a invencible navy or army, very far from that actually, but the capacity to rebuild even a total loss quickly is their man advantage. Its something japan or UK are too small to do it even with them starting with a better navy.

And france, Russia and germany have to catch up first. Hard to impossible as the US will already be building to war by the time they can finish their problems on Europe to start looking for the americas.

But. Start making them work together and the US have no chance. Even US have to wait 1 year or more for a carrier to be rebuild, and no good ship will leave a dock before 6 months or more buildings.

If we start doing crazy ifs scenarios. Japan + UK jave a good chance of beating the US navy, but both need to win in their respective oceans. If one lose the US can rebuild on the other ocean!

After beating the navy. Even if UK and Japan don´t have the same IC capacitys their fewer reinforcements are enough to replenish their already existing navy.


PS: Of course im thinking we will not go hoi 2 style where we can buy 300 ships and once ready place them all on one dockyard, making a country go from 0 ships to 300 in one day.
 
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lobosrul

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Hey, I understand your frustration, if I grew up in a world thoroughly dominated militarily, economically and culturally by another country, I would want to see it knocked down a peg or two, even if just in fantasy. It has to be even more agrivating to know that this tragic world war was started in Europe and Asia by evil regimes of varying degrees of evil but finished by the reluctant American nation that put an end to the rampant evil in the world like a frustrated parent separating quaralsome children. IMHO WW2 ended just like it should have, with the one good nation striding the globe like a colossus.

Just to put it out there: not all of us Americans agree with this sentiment/opinion.
 
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lobosrul

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Hmm. Midway is a bit of an oddball, isnt it? I mean: It held little strategic value for the japanese outside of being a possible forward base for defence of the home islands. It´s way too small to base an invasion of hawaii and it´s not cutting any strategic lines except the one going straight from San Francisco to Tokio. The US could have lost it, without much consequence. Yet, the battle was planed as a lure and the americans, despite the odds, took the bait - and won. So:
1. The japanese chose a poor target, imho. They should have opted to cut the lines between the US and australia / new zealand (pretty much like they attempted at the coral sea). Not only would that have given them a prospect of increasing the pressure on the allies, it would also have made any surprises by the US that much more unlikely - whatever they would send, there are not going to reinforce it anytime soon, some thousands of miles away from their main bases.
2. The americans knew what was coming for them, and that they were going to be outnumbered in a fight over a non-vital target - yet they chose to engage with all they had, exactly as the japanese had wished for (albeit sooner than they had expected them to)...
3. ...and won decicively at the last roll of the dies.
It´s almost as if the two sides had agreed on: "Hey, let´s forget about all that tactics and strategy crap and just meet somewhere in the middle of the ocean with all our fleets and slug it out, okay?" and the americans replied: "No way, we have less carriers than you do, still!" - "Okay, fine then, pick some small islands that are suitable to replace, say, 2 or 3 carriers... okay?" - "Deal!"

(EDIT: It´s great hollywood-material, i think - if it shows both sides - and no romance crap, please)

The IJN ships at Midway should've have been in the Coral Sea. Japan then easily wins that battle, sinking 2 USN CV's, and Port Moresby falls, an actual strategically important target.. Instead they divided their fleet, not smart.
 
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Ernestas

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Do not be next Hitler. Why do you want to win total war against such massive foe? Heck, even Japans on their own came very close at kicking USA out of the war by proper use of inertia and surprise. Imagine that even bigger foe would be capable off!
 
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Ernestas

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Why do you guys refuse to consider most realistic opponent, Britain? It were not a good guy back then and only stupid diplomatic moves led to its demise. If UK would had more wisdom, they would go with Germans as some within them wanted. With a change in history, different opinions and leaders it's not hard to imagine Britain realizing its diminishing power and being hungry for more. In that scenario, we could consider British Empire invading USA before 1940 thus catching USA with its pants down without any significant army or air force. Beat or suppress navy and rest is cakewalk for a year or a two.
 
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Rubidium

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Not really. Assuming Japan and Germany could achieve dominance in their respective oceans they would have enough capability to take the coast of the US, using nearby islands a as a jumpoff point (harder in the pacific than the atlantic). And once the US loses the coast it is done for as without those industrial centers it could not maintain fighting capability. And by the time they created enough industry there the coasts would be thouroughly reinforced.
Yeah, no. You can't just handwave Japanese and German somehow gaining "dominance in their respective oceans"; neither came close (and adding the UK and France wouldn't change things; the Allies didn't gain that level of dominance against Japan until 1944/45, and that was against an enemy that had basically run out of fuel and pilots, things the US would never have a shortage of). The US never really let its navy slack like it did the army, had almost as much industry as the rest of the world combined, and even if we somehow allow the US to lose a massive series of campaigns such that their fleet is knocked out, that will take time. Especially since, in the worst case, the US can always pull back its fleet to the mainland, and maintain a fleet-in-being that can't be easily sunk. Meanwhile, while also this fighting and attrition is taking place, the US is mobilizing its forces and fortifying.

Amphibious invasions are hard, even across something as narrow as the English Channel (look at how much effort went into Operation Overlord). Look at the losses the Germans took in Norway, or those the Japanese took against Wake. Now imagine supporting an invasion of that sort across the ocean, with an enemy that can literally draw reinforcements from across the continent.

Nor are Americans cowards incapable of fighting for their homeland. Do you think that the average Russian (much less Ukrainian or other minority) loved Stalin in 1941? Of course not! But they were willing to fight desperately for their homeland, and I see no reason why Americans suffering an invasion wouldn't be willing to do so as well. The fact that they didn't have to historically doesn't change what they would have done if they had needed to. I'm not saying that the American was a better soldier, merely that the assumption that the average Japanese or German soldier was automatically superior for not coming from a democracy is off-base.
 
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In that scenario, we could consider British Empire invading USA before 1940 thus catching USA with its pants down without any significant army
It is true that the US was not mobilized for war in the 20's and 30's, but it was not as helpless as you presume. The inter-war US Army (after 1921) consisted of 12 Regular Army ("RA") infantry divisions, 18 National Guard ("NG") infantry divisions, and 27 Organized Reserve ("OR") infantry divisions. That is a total of 57 infantry divisions that could have been fielded by the US Army on rather short notice. The US infantry divisions were rather large. They were square, with two infantry brigades made up of four infantry regiments and an artillery brigade with about 200 guns (mostly 75mm but including a regiment of 155 mm guns), each division consisting of about 20,000 men each. The inter-war US Army also included 2 RA cavalry divisions, 4 NG cavalry divisions, and 6 OR cavalry divisions. So, 69 divisions all told. Then that coastline was bristling 27 RA coast defense commands. (See, U.S. Army Order of Battle 1919-1941, Lt. Col. Steven E. Clay.) After that, there were all the nutters with guns from Texas and other wild American places you just don't want to mess with. That's what you'd face, assuming you launched a successful sneak attack early in the game's time frame before the US can ramp up for war, and assuming you can defeat the US Navy, land an army on US shores, and supply that army over submarine infested waters. That's the best case scenario. But if the US gets even a hint of what's up your sleeve, its all over. For comparison purposes, after plenty of time to ramp up for war, with only a channel to cross, and with a cooperative host French government assisting with logistics, the British in 1940 managed to land the BEF in France that consisted of what? 10 divisions and three brigades? Sorry, pants down or not, it ain't happening.
 
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Yeah, no. You can't just handwave Japanese and German somehow gaining "dominance in their respective oceans"; neither came close (and adding the UK and France wouldn't change things; the Allies didn't gain that level of dominance against Japan until 1944/45, and that was against an enemy that had basically run out of fuel and pilots, things the US would never have a shortage of). The US never really let its navy slack like it did the army, had almost as much industry as the rest of the world combined, and even if we somehow allow the US to lose a massive series of campaigns such that their fleet is knocked out, that will take time. Especially since, in the worst case, the US can always pull back its fleet to the mainland, and maintain a fleet-in-being that can't be easily sunk. Meanwhile, while also this fighting and attrition is taking place, the US is mobilizing its forces and fortifying.

Amphibious invasions are hard, even across something as narrow as the English Channel (look at how much effort went into Operation Overlord). Look at the losses the Germans took in Norway, or those the Japanese took against Wake. Now imagine supporting an invasion of that sort across the ocean, with an enemy that can literally draw reinforcements from across the continent.

Nor are Americans cowards incapable of fighting for their homeland. Do you think that the average Russian (much less Ukrainian or other minority) loved Stalin in 1941? Of course not! But they were willing to fight desperately for their homeland, and I see no reason why Americans suffering an invasion wouldn't be willing to do so as well. The fact that they didn't have to historically doesn't change what they would have done if they had needed to. I'm not saying that the American was a better soldier, merely that the assumption that the average Japanese or German soldier was automatically superior for not coming from a democracy is off-base.


The difference is that one side will not try quite literally to exterminate them and would seek strategically useful cease fire rather than total war from shore to shore. While Americans will fight as enthusiastic as most countries, I highly doubt that they have tenacity of Russians to endure such hardships. In USA history they never needed to endure it and thus it defines them differently. Thus national character or USA is completely different than of USSR.
 
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It is true that the US was not mobilized for war in the 20's and 30's, but it was not as helpless as you presume. The inter-war US Army (after 1921) consisted of 12 Regular Army ("RA") infantry divisions, 18 National Guard ("NG") infantry divisions, and 27 Organized Reserve ("OR") infantry divisions. That is a total of 57 infantry divisions that could have been fielded by the US Army on rather short notice. The US infantry divisions were rather large. They were square, with two infantry brigades made up of four infantry regiments and an artillery brigade with about 200 guns (mostly 75mm but including a regiment of 155 mm guns), each division consisting of about 20,000 men each. The inter-war US Army also included 2 RA cavalry divisions, 4 NG cavalry divisions, and 6 OR cavalry divisions. So, 69 divisions all told. Then that coastline was bristling 27 RA coast defense commands. (See, U.S. Army Order of Battle 1919-1941, Lt. Col. Steven E. Clay.) After that, there were all the nutters with guns from Texas and other wild American places you just don't want to mess with. That's what you'd face, assuming you launched a successful sneak attack early in the game's time frame before the US can ramp up for war, and assuming you can defeat the US Navy, land an army on US shores, and supply that army over submarine infested waters. That's the best case scenario. But if the US gets even a hint of what's up your sleeve, its all over. For comparison purposes, after plenty of time to ramp up for war, with only a channel to cross, and with a cooperative host French government assisting with logistics, the British in 1940 managed to land the BEF in France that consisted of what? 10 divisions and three brigades? Sorry, pants down or not, it ain't happening.


As I told before, they can get everything they wish, they still won't believe it. Heck, even with simpler things such as Perl Harbor they screwed up royally to the point of conspiracies and now you want to say that they will take warnings of total war seriously? Of course not, they will follow their isolationist politics until it's way too late to change anything. Probably then invasion fleet is spotted in their outer perimeter. There were so many fools before WW2 thinking that Hitler's massive armament effort, chronic violations of treaties and rising extremism was not an indication of inevitable war that assuming that Americans won't do even less of the mistake of wrongly evaluating incoming threats to them is not far fetched to say at least.

I'm sorry, but USA back then had army smaller of the Portugal's. With just 180,000 men with obsolete equipment serving dispersed around country is considered as defenseless. If you catch it in such case then basically you are only inhibited by how fucking huge USA is, nothing more. Heck, even Belgium at that point could defeat that shithole if we pit both armies against each other excluding industrial advantage.

People with guns are best at getting killed. I do not know from where you get that idea that some rednecks are substitute for an army. Through the Europe partisans were not much more than a nuisance. Better at hiding than fighting. And no, USSR did not just pressed million of rookies to serve. They had millions of men in reserve due to widespread military training which they made in the past. Heck, even today Russians have one of the biggest fighting forces on the planet if they will call up their massive reserves. USSR only won because they had invested time and money into training civilians how to defend at the time of need. Bunch of Texans shouting Amuuurrriiiccchaaa!!! are worthless. I would say that their immaturity would only get them killed and submissive farmers from USSR were far better army material. At least they had shit loads of courage which did not had a need to be displayed to satisfy personal egos and they had natural tenacity and discipline. These traits are a lot better than enthusiasm and courage of Americans, especially then it comes to militia.
 
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mario1789

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How long would we really have lasted if they dropped the bomb on NYC, Boston, DC, instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Then others. C'Mon. Sure the notion of successfully invading the US in a conventional war is the stuff B movies are made of. But the bomb?

A strictly conventional war though--haha. There were enough guns to arm the whole populace, and yes people here make their own bullets. It's not like America is all flat--a guerrilla war would be brutal, and there's sooo much land to hold. All of France is smaller than just Texas. And then there's other considerations, like how the country would fragment. An invader would have to take the states out individually, as they all have their own government and militia and armories and infrastructure. Even if Connecticut and Rhode Island surrender, Texas and Utah sure as hell aren't going to.

But I agree it should be possible in the game. It's a game and the US is the final boss. Maybe someone will make a cool mod about it.
 
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Opanashc

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How long would we really have lasted if they dropped the bomb on NYC, Boston, DC, instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Then others. C'Mon. Sure the notion of successfully invading the US in a conventional war is the stuff B movies are made of. But the bomb?

A strictly conventional war though--haha. There were enough guns to arm the whole populace, and yes people here make their own bullets. It's not like America is all flat--a guerrilla war would be brutal, and there's sooo much land to hold. All of France is smaller than just Texas. And then there's other considerations, like how the country would fragment. An invader would have to take the states out individually, as they all have their own government and militia and armories and infrastructure. Even if Connecticut and Rhode Island surrender, Texas and Utah sure as hell aren't going to.
But I agree it should be possible in the game. It's a game and the US is the final boss. Maybe someone will make a cool mod about it.
Britain gave a solution to guerrilla warfare during the Boer war. How much will you be able to do behind barbed wire?
Making bullets is great. What about gunpowder?
Reprisals work.
 

mario1789

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Barbed wire? We're talking about a contiguous landmass larger than all of Europe without Russia. C'mon. Germany fits inside of Montana, France inside of Texas. Italy is close to the size of Arizona. A lot of the land is landlocked. The people are stubborn and not easily subdued, even when they're making a poor choice. They are instilled with a mythology at a young age of fighting off a stronger European power and winning. Conventional conquest is crazy talk outside of a game.
 
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Opanashc

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Barbed wire? We're talking about a contiguous landmass larger than all of Europe without Russia. C'mon. Germany fits inside of Montana, France inside of Texas. Italy is close to the size of Arizona. A lot of the land is landlocked. The people are stubborn and not easily subdued, even when they're making a poor choice. They are instilled with a mythology at a young age of fighting off a stronger European power and winning. Conventional conquest is crazy talk outside of a game.
No man - no problem. If every family knows, that if they don't behave - one of their loved ones WILL die, it changes the perspectives. Will you go around, if you know that your daughter is subject to execution for your actions against? Just saying. Scorched earth policy works too. If you don't have gunpowder, I care not if you can make bullets - they are useless. Trust me, less than 0.1% of the americans will be actively resisting if occupied (unless part of the army). Passive resistance, aid to those who do raise up in arms - by all means. Easy to talk about it, hard to do if that means abandoning your family.
 

mario1789

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No man - no problem. If every family knows, that if they don't behave - one of their loved ones WILL die, it changes the perspectives. Will you go around, if you know that your daughter is subject to execution for your actions against? Just saying. Scorched earth policy works too. If you don't have gunpowder, I care not if you can make bullets - they are useless. Trust me, less than 0.1% of the americans will be actively resisting if occupied (unless part of the army). Passive resistance, aid to those who do raise up in arms - by all means. Easy to talk about it, hard to do if that means abandoning your family.

On such a tiny scale, yeah. But this is too small in thinking. It's not like there's just the east and west coast and nothing in the middle. I'm not taking about a couple of states or a few cities--the whole 48. More than 100 million people. Too many people to control, too much land. This is a people who have no tradition of surrender on their own soil except in a civil war. This isn't just fiction, but science fiction now. And I'll leave you to that realm.
 

Opanashc

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On such a tiny scale, yeah. But this is too small in thinking. It's not like there's just the east and west coast and nothing in the middle. I'm not taking about a couple of states or a few cities--the whole 48. More than 100 million people. Too many people to control, too much land. This is a people who have no tradition of surrender on their own soil except in a civil war. This isn't just fiction, but science fiction now. And I'll leave you to that realm.
And those people also don't have a tradition of self-sacrifice and enduring of hardships. That's a hard truth.
We talking about WW2, when entire population of USA was ~137 million. Occupy the East and West coasts, and for the rest of the country there's less people then for France. Maneuver warfare and scorched earth policy galore. No factories = no weapons = no real means of resisting. There's more then one way to skin a cat.
 

tommylotto

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William-Tecumseh-Sherman.jpg

I find your lack of faith in the American people's will to endure hardship ... Troubling.
 
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sterrius

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With civil war being a story told by very old people, it is actually possible the people don´t wished to face the same hardships the Americans faced at the civil war. In fact a WW II Hardship would be far worse.

But i can´t also say it can´t happen.

We can´t just pretend we know how a mob will react. A mob can organize and become later a guerrila or just give up and obey like sheep. Its very hard, need to be calculated city by city and also depends on a lot of factors. (How they are treated, how they punish misbehavior, if they actually have a chance of fighting back, etc etc).


What i know is that people in US where scared, very scared of the war getting to its shores.
Pearl Harbor changed everything not because the fear became reality, but because it was a total backstab.

That low blow changed fear into rage, and rage into revenge! Any anti-war person with even a little of power also changed its position to full support of the war.

It totally united the country.
But we can´t say any attack on US soil will give the same effect.

For example. Everyone knew the US was helping the allies, not declaring war was just a formality to keep things "cold" but no one would bat a eye claiming for a pearl harbor kind of revenge if germany attacked a US ship or military base close to the fight in WWII. Most population would know the US had it coming for helping too much one side and the anti-war political side would get even stronger.

The US even lost a destroyer and 115 personel with it in 41 and the US still don´t declared war.

If germany declared war on the US not every american would agree with the war, they would defend the country but they would not be united like pearl harbor did! The formality would give time for everyone in the country to think over and over if they really want the war and risk their lives for it.


The feeling of being betrayed/backstabed is a powerful feeling. This feeling led the russians too in their defense.
 
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