The United States should be nearly impossible to conquer

[sterrius]

For germany to face US it needs to win the land war and start a naval war, with luck while japan is still alive and kicking to make this a two front war.

US industry is powerful but it takes a lot of manpower and resources from other countrys. (I hated in HOI2 that US was self sufficient, it was far from reality in WWII as US needed to ration lots and lots of things).

If germany gets a navy strong enough to secure a route from france to canada it can start landing from there and start the war.! (Sorry canada XD).

Also the greatlakes have excellent chokepoints that can be used to secure a position and start the war from there!

If japan was still alive and kicking i would also try to send what i could to help them.

But i don´t see much hopes for japan as china alone could have won that war! (at great cost but they could).

 

[Axe99]

For germany to face US it needs to win the land war and start a naval war, with luck while japan is still alive and kicking to make this a two front war.

US industry is powerful but it takes a lot of manpower and resources from other countrys. (I hated in HOI2 that US was self sufficient, it was far from reality in WWII as US needed to ration lots and lots of things).

If germany gets a navy strong enough to secure a route from france to canada it can start landing from there and start the war.! (Sorry canada XD).

Also the greatlakes have excellent chokepoints that can be used to secure a position and start the war from there!

If japan was still alive and kicking i would also try to send what i could to help them.

But i don´t see much hopes for japan as china alone could have won that war! (at great cost but they could).

If we're talking IRL, it's worth keeping in mind that the US handily out-produced the Germans, Italians and Japanese in naval production (and started with a very strong fleet in the first place to back it up). I'm still crunching the numbers, but even if HoI4 gave the US only half of the naval capacity it had historically, I wouldn't rate the chances of the Axis getting a competitive fleet before the 1950s highly, if at all. I'm not saying it shouldn't be possible in-game, particularly if players get creative with diplomatic arrangements, but we're talking about giving the Axis a hand to make it 'fun', rather than anything that was plausible.

 

[sterrius]

the problem of thinking just by numbers axe is that we are not going to just place every ship both sides have in a bathtub and decide there who have the best navy.

You don´t need to be superior to actually win. You just need to play your cards right. (Better ships, experience, choose better the battles etc).

- Germany don´t need to take over the whole atlantic fleet, just a route to the americas. (Top of the north atlantic is enough). Of course im already thinking germany conquered or disabled england somehow.

- Japan don´t need to defeat the whole US navy, just the Pacific one! That already cut the US naval forces by half (And don´t even need to defeat the whole fleet, just enough to take pearl harbor and keep it,

- Italy don´t need to win the mediterran, just need enough to keep the supply lines going.

The battle of midway is a fine example. The US won there and started to turn the War (After 6 months of japanese wins and taking territory from US, England etc), but the japanese could have won the battle without the need for more ships or planes.

And that with a horrible cryphtography. Change that one tech and the US would have much bigger problems detecting and fighting the japanese in the pacific, not enough to win the war but the japanese could have won a few more months and who know how much the US would lose in ships and lives if the japanese code worked.

Its actually easy to get the pacific war, change 3-5 details and see the japanene easily giving the US a hard time.

 

[RisingSun]

While I agree that bringing in enough troops could result in the conquest of the Americas -- what I don't see is any way that the axis could not only bring them in but keep them supplied. Nor can I see any way that the axis could launch an invasion if the game is anywhere near "realistic" in terms of supply, logistics etc on conducting an invasion of the scope needed much less develop the naval forces to take on the US Navy of the era or the the US Army Air Corps that developed.

What I think that most people out there have no ideas what it is like being close quarters, when you have troops going down town that trying to take control, you going to have snipers, suicide bombers, etcs. It will be bloody regardless how experience those troops are. It like playing Dungeon and Dragons PnP, when you get caught flat footed or being surprised, it can get really ugly. That is why USA didn't want to invade Japan by risking so many American men there, instead they dropped the atomic bombs x2.

Don't think this game model will have complex details for close quarters in those urban areas.

 

[Axe99]

the problem of thinking just by numbers axe is that we are not going to just place every ship both sides have in a bathtub and decide there who have the best navy.

You don´t need to be superior to actually win. You just need to play your cards right. (Better ships, experience, choose better the battles etc).

- Germany don´t need to take over the whole atlantic fleet, just a route to the americas. (Top of the north atlantic is enough). Of course im already thinking germany conquered or disabled england somehow.

- Japan don´t need to defeat the whole US navy, just the Pacific one! That already cut the US naval forces by half (And don´t even need to defeat the whole fleet, just enough to take pearl harbor and keep it,

- Italy don´t need to win the mediterran, just need enough to keep the supply lines going.

The battle of midway is a fine example. The US won there and started to turn the War (After 6 months of japanese wins and taking territory from US, England etc), but the japanese could have won the battle without the need for more ships or planes.

And that with a horrible cryphtography. Change that one tech and the US would have much bigger problems detecting and fighting the japanese in the pacific, not enough to win the war but the japanese could have won a few more months and who know how much the US would lose in ships and lives if the japanese code worked.

Its actually easy to get the pacific war, change 3-5 details and see the japanene easily giving the US a hard time.

I agree with everything you're saying (particularly the cryptography), but I think it's still just a matter of time before US shipbuilding swamps the opposition. Take Midway, for example. Even if Japan achieves complete destruction of the entire force they have there, within 12 months the US has replaced those with Essex class CVs (better than anything anyone in the war had (the Brits started building something comparable, but they didn't complete until well after the war ended), and by the end of 1944 the number of new Essex class CVs built is 14, and that's not counting the CVLs (9 Independence class were completed in 1943, 5 in the first half). If the Japanese had wiped out the entire US CV fleet in the middle of 1942, the US has pretty much replaced it by the middle of 1943. Even if you destroy the entire starting navy of the US, then split what they build in half (or thirds) from about the end of 1943, unless the Axis are repeatedly incredibly lucky, it's going to be very hard on the Axis navies. If you go before the end of 1943, then you need their entire starting Navy to be destroyed or they won't stand a chance.

Another thing to keep in mind - as well as their warship production, the US built nearly 4.4 million tonnes of landing ship and landing craft during the war as well. Had they been under threat of invasion, this capacity would have gone towards ships better suited for defence, tipping the balance even further against the Axis.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it's far easier raiding than protecting convoys. Just like the Germans were able to challenge the RN in the North Atlantic despite being a substantially smaller force, the USN doesn't even need to be at parity (or that close) to cause all sorts of trouble for Axis convoys. Even with the entire USN out of the picture, US long-range bombers and Catalinas would cause substantial difficulties to supply lines. It's the same story for invasions - on D-Day, the Germans were able to get four E-boats through the Allied screens to launch torpedoes at ships coming into land (and I think they sunk one destroyer at the time, although I'm not fully confident of my memory here). The Axis don't need 'parity' or close to it, they need overwhelming superiority in whichever ocean they intend to invade from.

That said, don't get me wrong, I'm just theorycrafting, and trying to add to the conversation, I'm hardly on an authority on historical what-ifs .

What I think that most people out there have no ideas what it is like being close quarters, when you have troops going down town that trying to take control, you going to have snipers, suicide bombers, etcs. It will be bloody regardless how experience those troops are. It like playing Dungeon and Dragons PnP, when you get caught flat footed or being surprised, it can get really ugly. That is why USA didn't want to invade Japan by risking so many American men there, instead they dropped the atomic bombs x2.

Don't think this game model will have complex details for close quarters in those urban areas.

Easily the first time I've ever seen close-quarters combat compared with Dungeons and Dragons, lol, although I think I know what you mean .

 

[Jazumir]

I dont think an invasion of the US was or is feasible without support of significant portions of its own population.

Something like i did in my final HoI2-game, maybe: Drop a couple of nukes on several US-cities (i think i had 8 or so, delivered by some super V-weapons), which breaks the whole country apart (republic of california), sinks it in general turmoil, and then land troops, who pretty much only have to occupy from this point on, and which are supported by an army of insurgents already wrecking havoc on the US from within (like paralizing the fleet, cause officers have to sort out who can be trusted and such...). Something akin to Romania IRL, pretty much, where an internal coup is coupled with an outside invasion, so that control slips very quickly from the central government.

For the game, i think the following equation holds true: Ability to conquer the US (by brute military force) = Ability to conquer the world. Cause if you can do that, there is nothing else, you cannot do and the only limit of what you can do becomes time. Since a WC is not neccessarily what people want to do in HoI4 (i hope and assume there is a general concensus on that a WC should be really exceptional even when playing as a great power, and should probably be unfeasable without cheats and exploits), invading the US successfully should be very hard and pose the ultimate challange and take so much preperation and time, that it occupies you so much, that there is simply not enough time to conquer the rest.

So like, say, you are playing Germany and a buddy of yours plays the USSR in a 2-player-game and you two agree on a true NAP between the two of you for the entire game. So in 1940/41 you are ready for sealion, save from soviet intervention. After that, you start preparing for the invasion of the US, and the USSR fills in any ressource gaps you may have for you. It still should be a close call to be able to pull it off and through with it to the end, within the timeframe of the game (given the rest of the world roughly follows histrical tracks - so, yeah, pearl and all happens, but still).

Part of said preperation should include manipulation of the US-political scene. I think the one major obstacle would be the self-perception of the americans of being a free people, who are determined to fight for said freedom. Take that away, and you got a much easier game. You somehow got to manage your plan of conquest in a way, that when it gets executed, many americans will welcome you as liberators.

TLDR: The USA can only be liberated from outside, not conquered.

EDIT - About close-quarter fighting: It´s usually much more intense than distant-nickel-fighting (for obvious reasons).... ;P

 

[sterrius]

I agree with everything you're saying (particularly the cryptography), but I think it's still just a matter of time before US shipbuilding swamps the opposition. Take Midway, for example. Even if Japan achieves complete destruction of the entire force they have there, within 12 months the US has replaced those with Essex class CVs (better than anything anyone in the war had (the Brits started building something comparable, but they didn't complete until well after the war ended), and by the end of 1944 the number of new Essex class CVs built is 14, and that's not counting the CVLs (9 Independence class were completed in 1943, 5 in the first half). If the Japanese had wiped out the entire US CV fleet in the middle of 1942, the US has pretty much replaced it by the middle of 1943. Even if you destroy the entire starting navy of the US, then split what they build in half (or thirds) from about the end of 1943, unless the Axis are repeatedly incredibly lucky, it's going to be very hard on the Axis navies. If you go before the end of 1943, then you need their entire starting Navy to be destroyed or they won't stand a chance.

Another thing to keep in mind - as well as their warship production, the US built nearly 4.4 million tonnes of landing ship and landing craft during the war as well. Had they been under threat of invasion, this capacity would have gone towards ships better suited for defence, tipping the balance even further against the Axis.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it's far easier raiding than protecting convoys. Just like the Germans were able to challenge the RN in the North Atlantic despite being a substantially smaller force, the USN doesn't even need to be at parity (or that close) to cause all sorts of trouble for Axis convoys. Even with the entire USN out of the picture, US long-range bombers and Catalinas would cause substantial difficulties to supply lines. It's the same story for invasions - on D-Day, the Germans were able to get four E-boats through the Allied screens to launch torpedoes at ships coming into land (and I think they sunk one destroyer at the time, although I'm not fully confident of my memory here). The Axis don't need 'parity' or close to it, they need overwhelming superiority in whichever ocean they intend to invade from.

That said, don't get me wrong, I'm just theorycrafting, and trying to add to the conversation, I'm hardly on an authority on historical what-ifs .



Easily the first time I've ever seen close-quarters combat compared with Dungeons and Dragons, lol, although I think I know what you mean .

If you give a total victory for the japanese in midway the war would have lasted much longer, Hawaii would likely be lost to the japanese in those 12 months giving the US a much harder time in the whole pacific theater. That could have given a shot on taking Hawaii and Linen islands.

From there its 4000km to california. A distance too big for a viable land invasion (They would just bomb the citys and docks to delay the production of ships), but this also works as a advantage for the japanese as re-taking Hawaii would not be so easy. Even with new carriers (managed by inexperienced people, the experienced commanders and pilots would all be dead at midway).

While the US rebuild carriers in 1 year the japanese would be building Planes and garrison every single island. The carriers having a limited capacity would work against the US making the battle even.

In the end the japanese will lose one island at a time just like it happened in real life. The problem here is calculating the cost that would be on a whole new level.

For the game, i think the following equation holds true: Ability to conquer the US (by brute military force) = Ability to conquer the world. Cause if you can do that, there is nothing else, you cannot do and the only limit of what you can do becomes time. Since a WC is not neccessarily what people want to do in HoI4 (i hope and assume there is a general concensus on that a WC should be really exceptional even when playing as a great power, and should probably be unfeasable without cheats and exploits), invading the US successfully should be very hard and pose the ultimate challange and take so much preperation and time, that it occupies you so much, that there is simply not enough time to conquer the rest.

This is also my vision.

i can only see germany, UK, France, japan and Russia taking US! And all of them have tons of problem and limitations before they can even think starting the plan. Being possible only because the game start at 36 and goes to 48-50.

Any other country would need to rely on exploits.



Of course i will be trying this crazyness with brazil, taking south america and going up . I expect of course to lose, but not without a good fight .

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

If you give a total victory for the japanese in midway the war would have lasted much longer, Hawaii would likely be lost to the japanese in those 12 months giving the US a much harder time in the whole pacific theater. That could have given a shot on taking Hawaii and Linen islands.

Why? Hawaii is distant from major Japanese bases and well fortified. IJN did not ever have the ability to park off distant shore and provide constant naval support akin to late war USN with it's extensive fleet train. They could only come and go and at any point majority of IJN carrier arm was not in the neighborhood (which would be most of the time) US aircraft on Hawaii would rule those waters. Japanese logistics were getting overextended with their historical operations in SW Pacific anyway, saving the carriers won't fix that issue in short term.

 

[Red_Galiray]

Of course i will be trying this crazyness with brazil, taking south america and going up . I expect of course to lose, but not without a good fight .

I tried just this in HOI3. It ended badly, as just when I was invading Mexico (my landing craft wasn't enough to go against the USN) the Americans managed to land troops and free the Central American countries I had overran. Supply problems started and I wasn't able to capture any port and didn't had any aircraft. My entire army was destroyed. Before that, the results were good since I had surplus in everything and 220 IC, but my mapower was pathetic.

 

[Caesar15]

I tried just this in HOI3. It ended badly, as just when I was invading Mexico (my landing craft wasn't enough to go against the USN) the Americans managed to land troops and free the Central American countries I had overran. Supply problems started and I wasn't able to capture any port and didn't had any aircraft. My entire army was destroyed. Before that, the results were good since I had surplus in everything and 220 IC, but my mapower was pathetic.

What were your occupation laws?

 

[Red_Galiray]

What were your occupation laws?

At first, I used collaboration government with my South American brothers, using total explotation only in the colonies I captured and in Central America. When I became desesperated because the USN was destroying my navy, I switched to total explotation. I should also add that I was getting Lend Lease from Germany, Italy and Japan.

 

[Caesar15]

At first, I used collaboration government with my South American brothers, using total explotation only in the colonies I captured and in Central America. When I became desesperated because the USN was destroying my navy, I switched to total explotation. I should also add that I was getting Lend Lease from Germany, Italy and Japan.

Well that probably crushed your manpower, was it worth it to switch?

 

[Red_Galiray]

Well that probably crushed your manpower, was it worth it to switch?

Oh no, it wasn't that. My manpower was crushed way before I switched. I built too much divisions and even though it allowed me to overrun the continent, it was over before I went for Panama (at that moment, everybody was still under collaboration government).

 

[Will Steel]

In HOI3 it wasn't that hard to just roll into the US and take it over as the Axis, which I feel doesn't reflect reality at all. We are talking about a country with a similar population size to the USSR and has the second largest area after the USSR (if colonies are not counted). Add to that the fact that the US is separated from Eurasia by the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, the Americans have an extremely powerful navy, American troops are much better equipped compared to Soviets, and the fact that nearly all American households are armed with firearms, and the result is a country that is virtually impossible to invade.

I know HOI is about alternate history but if the Germans couldn't invade the UK which lies just across a tiny channel, and couldn't beat the USSR, which it shared a border with, what chance do they have against the Americans who are across the ocean? It should still be possible but I hope the extreme difficulty of this scenario is reflected in the game, unlike in HOI3. This will add realism and depth to the game. For instance, the Axis player has to decide if they really want to wake the sleeping giant and the decision to declare war against America will hold more weight to it.

YAY!

Another "Hurr Durr 'Murrica Stronk!!!!!!!!!1!!!oneone!!Stronk I said!!!!!!!eleven!!!!!!!11!!!!1!!!!" thread!

As if there weren't millions of threads and people flooding the forum past the years to arbitrarily make their USA invincible and godly stronk already!

 

[steve213]

well it is the greatest country on earth.

 

[Will Steel]

well it is the greatest country on earth.

Eh, according to whom?

Sorry but it is not, in any possible way. I see you might provoke a flame war somewhere, but no thanks, I don't have the wish to join it.

 

[steve213]

you have your opinion and I have mine

 

[Opanashc]

well it is the greatest country on earth.

According to whom? Did the world have a vote on the matter?
Because according to internet questionnaire, 100% of the people have internet.

 

[steve213]

like I said it's just my opinion man.

 

[Will Steel]

As much as I know, there is no 'greatest country' in the world and never has been, since the beginning of the history of sapient humans.