The United States should be nearly impossible to conquer

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Secret Master

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And for a last time, submarines are only good then you have massive supply lines. Invasion of USA won't require that. Just put local industry to work. Or even better, assault every harbor in USA and this is it. In a year you completely destroy any chance for USA to strike back at you seriously since it won't have its ports. Where do you think those submarines will go? Their options will be fatally limited and thus we could contain them and force them to retreat or attack.

This is a joke, right? Just like how the Germans were able to put Russian industry to work building T-34s?:rolleyes: Where will the food come from? Ammo? Equipment? Unless you capture a port with your small landing force that apparently went totally unnoticed and captured a major US port with no resistance (note the absurdity here), your men will starve.

Again, name me one amphibious invasion (or invasion of any type for that matter) where the initial beachheads had enough farms, industry, workers, and machinery to manufacture equipment, weapons, ammunition, and food to sustain an invasion force. I'll save you some time: there isn't one.

I'd like to chime in here and point out that Germany and Japan and Italy did practice looting in their land campaigns. Hell, Germany got all kinds of resources for taking out Belgium, the Netherlands, and France. And they got some tanks from the Czechs, as we all know.

But...

After the Battle of France, the Wermacht was still in a net deficit in terms of equipment and ammo. The resources looted helped Germany manufacture some new stuff during the lead up to Barbarossa. But that new stuff had to be sent to the units. They weren't sitting in occupied France looting Panzer IVs and StuG IIIs, along with the requisite fuel and ammo, replenishing their stocks.

Hell, let's be even more frank: the looting Germany did didn't even solve their resource and economic problems when they could just ship those resources to factories by train through territory that was not hostile. Assuming you could seize 100% of the USA's Atlantic ports, (something even I've never done in HOI3, and I literally wrote the book on land strategy), there won't be enough resources/manufacturing/food/ammunition/fuel/loot to keep the invading Axis armies at their current strength, let alone recover.

But on top of all that, you have to get replacement manpower. And you aren't looting German soldiers from occupied US territory. Those troops can only come from home; the USN had no problems sinking Japanese troop transports during the war.

In addition, you in the port god damn it. City who is full of goodies to requisition. Just take private business and government's property for your own consumption. Problem solved, I'm a genius!

So, let's say that solves your food problem. And I'll be generous and say that there is fuel to loot. (It won't last for very long, but I'll be generous and give you a month at full rations and full fuel tanks, which is better than the Germans got at Stalingrad.)

What about ammunition? Manpower replacements? Lost vehicles? Radio batteries? Spare parts for weapons?
None of these things are manufactured to spec in the USA. US ammunition cannot be used in German vehicles and weapons in most cases. You want to replace StuG IIIs? They have to come from home. You can't loot StuGs and Panzers and Stukas from US ports. (I checked; there are no Stuka or Panzer manufacturers on the US East or West coast.)

So, you want factories to make tanks and planes for you? Bad news. Detroit and Chicago aren't on the coast. But even if they were, the civilians living in those areas have fled, leaving you far fewer people to man those factories, assuming they are even willing to do so.

Let's say I give you factories with people in them. And let's say I'm feeling generous and they are able to make complete Shermans and Thompsons. Where are these factories going to get the steel? The iron and coal to fuel the steel mills? The copper, chromium, and all the other little things needed to make those tanks when those mines are not in the occupied zones?

Either you have to move military assets across the ocean to supply and reinforce your forces, or you have to ship resources to the occupied US to run the factories (I'd love to see Germany or Japan do that). And you need replacement manpower. So, yes, I think a convoy interdiction campaign with submarines would be dangerous to the Axis. There is no way to loot enough stuff in the US to sustain even an occupation of coastal cities.

And if you want enough resources to fuel your industry in these coastal cities, you have to occupy enough of the US to get those resources. That's not just going to be the coast.

In the context to the game, the question how difficult it should be to invade the US is directly tied into what constituates a victory.

I am not even sure, if the sandbox-mode should even feature a game-sanctioned ´victory´. Sure: The AI needs some goals, but the human player(s) is (are) supposed to set his (their) own in a sandbox (kind of by -an albeit tight- definition). Therefore invading the US may be next to impossible - if only to provide a possible goal for very skilled players.

I should point out that setting your war goals properly as the Axis meant no need to defeat the US by invasion. There are only two Axis war goals (two of many that could be selected) that even involved the US: Axis controls Honolulu, and Axis controls Panama.

So, even though there were official war-winning goals, none of them constituted "Invade the entire US and set up The Man in the High Castle situations." Hell, you could even select war goals that had nothing to do with the UK.

I bring it up, because some folks may forget that anyone invading the USA in HOI3 were doing so on their own, and it had nothing to do with achieving an official "win" condition.

Now, there is a "USA is a member of the Allies" win condition for the Allies, but it's just one. You don't even have to select it.
 
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ConjurerDragon

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I agree normally you are correct, but the HOI games almost made it mandatory to invade USA to win the war, short of that you couldnt knock them out of the war, even after dropping Nukes on them In HOI3 they still wouldnt surrender. I hope they work on that mechanic, i mean i had all of the english isle's and england still refused to surrender

Shouldn´t that be expected as long as the Commonwealth is still able to fight?
Even the US suggested to move the royal family to Bermuda during WW2 so the government evacuating just like the polish government should be an english option
http://bernews.com/2013/06/us-urged-royals-evacuate-to-bermuda-in-ww2/
 
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Beagá

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So, even though there were official war-winning goals, none of them constituted "Invade the entire US and set up The Man in the High Castle situations." Hell, you could even select war goals that had nothing to do with the UK.

I bring it up, because some folks may forget that anyone invading the USA in HOI3 were doing so on their own, and it had nothing to do with achieving an official "win" condition.

Now, there is a "USA is a member of the Allies" win condition for the Allies, but it's just one. You don't even have to select it.

Yeah but thing is, everything depends on Paradox. The moment they put "World Conquest" and "US conquest" as achievements some people WILL feel entitlement to it and demand in loudly in the forums. You are a more senior member than me, you know how things work :p

So, either don´t make it possible/don´t ever, EVER make achievement for those...

or decide from the start that it is and balance accordingly. I personally think it should be impossible for the same reasons byzantines shouldn´t be able to do world conquest in 10 years in EU4 - too much people to spank, too soon.

Making US be conquerable kinda demands fantasy, and one could argue that if a game makes cars go at 500 MPH it can´t ever be considered a Formula 1 simulator, and if a game allows US to be conquered in a short time frame game it can´t ever be considered a real war simulator.
 
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hkrommel

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Making US be conquerable kinda demands fantasy, and one could argue that if a game makes cars go at 500 MPH it can´t ever be considered a Formula 1 simulator, and if a game allows US to be conquered in a short time frame game it can´t ever be considered a real war simulator.

That's why the first thing I do is always mod the timeframe ;).

It's actually really fun seeing what you can do with little, personal mods. One of my favorites is modding Darkest Hour so there's no nukes, no nuclear technology, and no carriers. WWI-style naval combat and everything else totally conventional.
 

amalric de g.

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I'd like to chime in here and point out that Germany and Japan and Italy did practice looting in their land campaigns. Hell, Germany got all kinds of resources for taking out Belgium, the Netherlands, and France. And they got some tanks from the Czechs, as we all know.

But...

After the Battle of France, the Wermacht was still in a net deficit in terms of equipment and ammo. The resources looted helped Germany manufacture some new stuff during the lead up to Barbarossa. But that new stuff had to be sent to the units. They weren't sitting in occupied France looting Panzer IVs and StuG IIIs, along with the requisite fuel and ammo, replenishing their stocks.

Hell, let's be even more frank: the looting Germany did didn't even solve their resource and economic problems when they could just ship those resources to factories by train through territory that was not hostile. Assuming you could seize 100% of the USA's Atlantic ports, (something even I've never done in HOI3, and I literally wrote the book on land strategy), there won't be enough resources/manufacturing/food/ammunition/fuel/loot to keep the invading Axis armies at their current strength, let alone recover.

But on top of all that, you have to get replacement manpower. And you aren't looting German soldiers from occupied US territory. Those troops can only come from home; the USN had no problems sinking Japanese troop transports during the war.



So, let's say that solves your food problem. And I'll be generous and say that there is fuel to loot. (It won't last for very long, but I'll be generous and give you a month at full rations and full fuel tanks, which is better than the Germans got at Stalingrad.)

What about ammunition? Manpower replacements? Lost vehicles? Radio batteries? Spare parts for weapons?
None of these things are manufactured to spec in the USA. US ammunition cannot be used in German vehicles and weapons in most cases. You want to replace StuG IIIs? They have to come from home. You can't loot StuGs and Panzers and Stukas from US ports. (I checked; there are no Stuka or Panzer manufacturers on the US East or West coast.)

So, you want factories to make tanks and planes for you? Bad news. Detroit and Chicago aren't on the coast. But even if they were, the civilians living in those areas have fled, leaving you far fewer people to man those factories, assuming they are even willing to do so.

Let's say I give you factories with people in them. And let's say I'm feeling generous and they are able to make complete Shermans and Thompsons. Where are these factories going to get the steel? The iron and coal to fuel the steel mills? The copper, chromium, and all the other little things needed to make those tanks when those mines are not in the occupied zones?

Either you have to move military assets across the ocean to supply and reinforce your forces, or you have to ship resources to the occupied US to run the factories (I'd love to see Germany or Japan do that). And you need replacement manpower. So, yes, I think a convoy interdiction campaign with submarines would be dangerous to the Axis. There is no way to loot enough stuff in the US to sustain even an occupation of coastal cities.

And if you want enough resources to fuel your industry in these coastal cities, you have to occupy enough of the US to get those resources. That's not just going to be the coast.



I should point out that setting your war goals properly as the Axis meant no need to defeat the US by invasion. There are only two Axis war goals (two of many that could be selected) that even involved the US: Axis controls Honolulu, and Axis controls Panama.

So, even though there were official war-winning goals, none of them constituted "Invade the entire US and set up The Man in the High Castle situations." Hell, you could even select war goals that had nothing to do with the UK.

I bring it up, because some folks may forget that anyone invading the USA in HOI3 were doing so on their own, and it had nothing to do with achieving an official "win" condition.

Now, there is a "USA is a member of the Allies" win condition for the Allies, but it's just one. You don't even have to select it.

Pffff, the german soldiers go straight in the next Kwik-E Mart, buy their new Pz III (including the lifetime fuel) with the good old Reichsmark and conquer the rest of the US, if something broke again, look for the next Kwik-E Mart. ;)
upload_2016-1-5_0-12-36.jpeg
 

Relnor

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Just like in HoI 3, the AI will not be able to hold up against an experienced player - even with massive AI bonuses ala BICE, world conquest is still possible, certainly as Germany anyway.

A discussion about a RL Axis invasion of NA is moot, ofcourse it wouldn't have been possible. Should it be impossible in a game ? Absolutely not. If I've already veered far, far off of the historical track by defeating UK and USSR, with the proper tech and preparation, I should be able to land somewhere in the Americas and go from there. HoI at the end of the day is a simulation of WW2 warfare, not of 1936-1946 as it happened in our world. If that were the case then you wouldn't be able to play Axis countries since they'd always be the losers - and what a much more boring game that would be.

Paradox has already shown that they're willing to indulge ahistorical paths even prior to 1939 - even going as far as a NF option for France to join Germany ( pretty sure it was France, I think I saw it in a diary or stream) - to allow something like this then make landing in USA virtually impossible makes no sense, its basically two different design philosophies.

The only think that should be impossible is for the German AI, uninfluenced by the player, to invade the USA. So yes, if you start a game as Cuba and just watch it unfold, and GER invades USA, then there is a problem, if its a player doing it - working as intended.
 
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Just like in HoI 3, the AI will not be able to hold up against an experienced player - even with massive AI bonuses ala BICE, world conquest is still possible, certainly as Germany anyway.

A discussion about a RL Axis invasion of NA is moot, ofcourse it wouldn't have been possible. Should it be impossible in a game ? Absolutely not. If I've already veered far, far off of the historical track by defeating UK and USSR, with the proper tech and preparation, I should be able to land somewhere in the Americas and go from there. HoI at the end of the day is a simulation of WW2 warfare, not of 1936-1946 as it happened in our world. If that were the case then you wouldn't be able to play Axis countries since they'd always be the losers - and what a much more boring game that would be.

Paradox has already shown that they're willing to indulge ahistorical paths even prior to 1939 - even going as far as a NF option for France to join Germany ( pretty sure it was France, I think I saw it in a diary or stream) - to allow something like this then make landing in USA virtually impossible makes no sense, its basically two different design philosophies.

The only think that should be impossible is for the German AI, uninfluenced by the player, to invade the USA. So yes, if you start a game as Cuba and just watch it unfold, and GER invades USA, then there is a problem, if its a player doing it - working as intended.

While the defeat of both the British (somewhat) and the Soviets was logistically plausible an invasion (landing somewhere in North America as Germany) and staying there in force and in supply was not logistically possible in the time frame of the HOI game series and given the status of the world in 1936 start if the game -- see Secret Master above. If it can be done the game fails as a military simulator for the time period and we are back to a new, more complex version of Risk.
 

Wimpola

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The US should be easier to conquer than impossible. The US mobilized 16 million men in just one year. What should happen is the US will fight hard and with everything to lose they will fight for their country. They have, yes, an almost unlimited manpower pool and unlimited industry so starving them out wont be easy. To win you need to kill all inspirational leaders or high military command to weaken the morale and leadership. Some examples are Franklin D. Roosevelt, George C. Marshall, Dwight D. Eisehower, etc.
 

hkrommel

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To win you need to kill all inspirational leaders or high military command to weaken the morale and leadership. Some examples are Franklin D. Roosevelt, George C. Marshall, Dwight D. Eisehower, etc.

And prominent senators, and State governors, etc. The US has a very decentralized government structure. Trying to win by killing leaders is like fighting the Hydra. Each state has the ability to be an independent country if it comes down to it, so that's another aspect one needs to consider. Will killing FDR and the cabinet make people demoralized? A little, but they're not fighting for FDR, they're fighting for the USA, so killing leaders won't really do much.
 
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Opanashc

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The US mobilized 16 million men in just one year.
Erm, hate to break it to you, but US armed forces peaked out at over 12.2 million in 1945. In 1941, 1.8 million were in uniform, in 1942 - 3.9 million, in 1943 - 9.2 million, in 1944 - 11.6 million. Thus, biggest push came in 1943, when the military expanded by ~5.3 million men.
 
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Beagá

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More than enough to stall any invasion force that had to move 1000 miles using boats. Imagine doing D-day versus army that is 5 times bigger than your own. Then supplying them.

Good luck :p

Seriously, extend time line to make any conquest of US plausible. Don´t put it in game that starts in 1936 and ends in 1948. It´s as rubbish as making byzantines conquer ottomans in 50 years in EU4.
 

Porkman

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More than enough to stall any invasion force that had to move 1000 miles using boats. Imagine doing D-day versus army that is 5 times bigger than your own. Then supplying them.

Good luck :p

Seriously, extend time line to make any conquest of US plausible. Don´t put it in game that starts in 1936 and ends in 1948. It´s as rubbish as making byzantines conquer ottomans in 50 years in EU4.

Medieval conquest gets a pass because so much of it was just beating up elite houses and scaring the rest. Heck, the biggest empire on the planet in the 1600's was conquered in a period of 30 years. (Ming conquest by the Qing).
 

Secret Master

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They have, yes, an almost unlimited manpower pool and unlimited industry so starving them out wont be easy. To win you need to kill all inspirational leaders or high military command to weaken the morale and leadership. Some examples are Franklin D. Roosevelt, George C. Marshall, Dwight D. Eisehower, etc.

Hardly unlimited.

Killing inspirational leaders wouldn't help that much. Competent leaders, maybe, but killing inspirational leaders wouldn't hurt morale enough.

The more fighting that takes place within CONUS, the higher morale would get (until occupation makes it moot). This doesn't mean the defense of the US would be more competent, but if the Axis powers invaded the US, they should come prepared for practically infinitesimal collaboration among the populace. I won't rehash the Battle of France or Operation Barbarossa here, but I will say that no one is going to Petain the situation, and there won't be any significant number of Hiwis. The reasons are complex (we don't have time to discuss why minorities that were facing discrimination wouldn't turn to the Japanese or Germans in any significant number), but you aren't going to get anything like Ukraine-levels of collaboration. Invading CONUS will just generate a Great Patriotic War fever in the US. Morale won't be a problem.

If the Axis powers invade the US, they should be prepared to fight a titanic war of huge scale and assume that they will have to fight until the last bits of war material are exhausted and US casualties are severe. The US is too large to force quick capitulation a la Battle of France (and no one in a position of significant power is going to Petain the situation anyway), and there is no land connection for easy movement of troops a la Barbarossa. The USN needs to be destroyed, multiple coastal cities have to seized quickly and at the same time, and then you face the large march from either the east coast to the Rockies or the west coast to the Rockies, or both.

This is why I think it's just a fantasy short of the Axis having nukes.
 
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jju_57

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For food couldn't they just order in pizza from the local ITALIAN restaurant?
 
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Beagá

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Medieval conquest gets a pass because so much of it was just beating up elite houses and scaring the rest. Heck, the biggest empire on the planet in the 1600's was conquered in a period of 30 years. (Ming conquest by the Qing).

Agree, but at the cost of being spent and not being able to do much elsewhere. Also their policies weren´t exactly what nazi Germany did, at least regarding places like Poland.

Anyway I just want the game to make stuff like white peace with US, or peace in exchange for Hawaii or indemnities feel like an achievement, even if a minor one, and a harder one is extremely tough to pull off. I think it can happen.
 

Dinglehoff

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It shouldn't be assumed that morale would automatically and continuously be great in an invasion of the US. That "possibility" is predicated on the US Navy and Army and US civilian leadership demonstrating spectacular levels of incompetence and failure, which will shake confidence in the government. Even if there were no such demonstrations prior to the invasion, like in a sneak attack, ongoing failures forced by the enemy are going to be negative for morale and leadership. Also the government leadership quality and morale will degrade with the threat or occurrence of dislocation.
 

Axe99

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I'm doing some research into naval production and the like so I've got the data I need to mod various classes into the game (definitely DEs, Escorts, Corvettes and similar, CVLs and CVEs as well, the rest depending on how well they work with the gameplay), and to put some perspective on defeating the USN, going from some very preliminary numbers (only got all the individual classes together tonight, and I need to infer a bunch of tonnages for a range of classes, but this is mainly for classes built by the US - landing craft and landing ships - so isn't likely to change the gist of this stat beyond emphasising even further how ridiculous US naval production was), if you look at the total displacement of the fighting vessels that served with the various navies between 1936 and 1948, by the countries that built that displacement, the US produced more than the combined total of the UK, Japan, Germany and Italy. You need to beat the USN, and you need to beat it quick, or you need to form a coalition that of UK, Japan, Germany, Italy and either the USSR or France to have rough parity in naval strength over the course of the time period.

Edit: Or I've made some silly error ripping these figures out to add perspective in this thread - it was a quick'n'dirty - but will adjust as appropriate if that turns out to be the case.
 
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