The (un)Official Justice for Manichaeism Petition Thread

[Patriarch of Bub]

Sorry this boy here is not content. He has the ambitious trait

 

[CatilinamSum]

Sorry this boy here is not content. He has the ambitious trait

It really depends on where CKII is at in its development cycle. Right now, we just don't know. If they come out swinging with more dev diaries at the end of the summer, then great, they can take their time. But in the event that the game is finished and we're getting CKIII announced at PDXCon, then this is definitely a changed I'd like to see implemented no matter the effort.

 

[jonjowett]

It really depends on where CKII is at in its development cycle. Right now, we just don't know. If they come out swinging with more dev diaries at the end of the summer, then great, they can take their time. But in the event that the game is finished and we're getting CKIII announced at PDXCon, then this is definitely a changed I'd like to see implemented no matter the effort.

On the other hand, if they officially announce an end to CK2 development, the modders can take over. Any mods that get written for the "final" verison of CK2 will be valid for all time.

 

[spendabuck]

On the other hand, if they officially announce an end to CK2 development, the modders can take over. Any mods that get written for the "final" verison of CK2 will be valid for all time.

This is the only thing I'm looking forward to once CK2 stops being updated.

 

[AndrejK]

So lets take a recap of what can be done with the Iranian religious group:

• Zoroastrian
  • Khurmazta
  • Mazdaki
  • Behafaridism*
  • Khurramites*
    
  • Zurvanism
• Zuni (because Zunis were Iranian speakers
• Yazdani (to represent Kurdish pre-islamic religion)
  • Yezidi (as organized Kurdish religion/heresy. Upon emergence, Yazdani , if low moral authority, would become a Yazidi heresy)
  • Alevi
• Manichaeism
  • Denawar (Central Asia)
  • Mesopotamian = Mossadaqiya?
  • Median (West Iranian)
  • Togozgoziyya (Uyghur)
  • Chinese Manichean (better name for it?)
  • Western Manichean -
• Gnostic
  • Bardaisanite
  • Mandean

*These should also be available heresies for any Muslims in the greater Iran. Muslim-Zorastrian syncretic movements
Manichaeism should get some event that the communities are far apart and that the differences are too great .. and would split. Of course not all at once, with a prime divide between Mesopotamia and Media on one side and Sogdia and the Tarim basin on the other. If these communities grow disconnected, than they should split once more into four.
Like, all major religions splintered: Christianity, Budhism, Islam.. why not Manichaeism?

 

[Shadoon4]

So lets take a recap of what can be done with the Iranian religious group:

• Zoroastrian
  • Khurmazta
  • Mazdaki
  • Behafaridism*
  • Khurramites*
    
  • Zurvanism
• Zuni (because Zunis were Iranian speakers
• Yazdani (to represent Kurdish pre-islamic religion)
  • Yezidi (as organized Kurdish religion/heresy. Upon emergence, Yazdani , if low moral authority, would become a Yazidi heresy)
  • Alevi
• Manichaeism
  • Denawar (Central Asia)
  • Mesopotamian = Mossadaqiya?
  • Median (West Iranian)
  • Togozgoziyya (Uyghur)
  • Chinese Manichean (better name for it?)
  • Western Manichean -
• Gnostic
  • Bardaisanite
  • Mandean

*These should also be available heresies for any Muslims in the greater Iran. Muslim-Zorastrian syncretic movements
Manichaeism should get some event that the communities are far apart and that the differences are too great .. and would split. Of course not all at once, with a prime divide between Mesopotamia and Media on one side and Sogdia and the Tarim basin on the other. If these communities grow disconnected, than they should split once more into four.
Like, all major religions splintered: Christianity, Budhism, Islam.. why not Manichaeism?

Okay you've made a dozen or so new heresies/religions in game, but how does adding flavorless religions help anything?

 

[Willy Waggler]

From what i could gather about their doctrine it can be summed up in "Material world is evil. Be a good boy, lay on, and die". I agree that they are rather opposite to Zoroastrianism, but how can any sane person earnestly follow it, instead of being hypocrite of highest caliber. No wonder they actually did die out.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

From what i could gather about their doctrine it can be summed up in "Material world is evil. Be a good boy, lay on, and die". I agree that they are rather opposite to Zoroastrianism, but how can any sane person earnestly follow it, instead of being hypocrite of highest caliber. No wonder they actually did die out.

Well a lot of the decline was due to intolerance, isolation. .. St Augustine was manichean until he found that manichaeism couldn't answer his questions. That said, separation from the material world is a concept found in many religions, though of course the Manicheans considered it evil.

 

[AndrejK]

Okay you've made a dozen or so new heresies/religions in game, but how does adding flavorless religions help anything?

Agreed. The Mandean and Yazidi/Yarsani religions are I believe already discussed somewhere in the forum.
The two Zoroastrian-Muslim syncretic heresies should arise like melting pot religions:
Conditions

• Province has Iranian culture
• Top liege is Muslim
• Religion in county is Zoroastrianism, or religion of neighbouring county is Zoroastrianism.
• Moral authority of Zoroastrianism is low (?)
• Revolt risk is high.

An event would create a new heresy, plus inspire a Persian liberation revolt. This event should expand to neighbouring countues once they are conquered by the rebels

 

[Tomaster]

Muslim-Zorastrian syncretic movements

The new Shia heresy added in 936 is a good example of this actually. The ingame description for the Qarmatians mentions Zoroastrian influence, and they can intermarry with Zoroastrians. Not sure about other Mazdans though.

The Denawar, additionally, were more like an antipope situation than a separate religion/heresy.

The See of Babylon appears to have been a part of the mainstream Manichean Church from what I can gather, and thus is definitely not a heresy candidate.

The Denawars were the Manichean community in Sogdiana, which had a temporary schism with the western Manicheans over economics and politics as opposed to doctrine. This schism was worked out in the 8th century. This seems more akin to an antipope situation as opposed to a full-blown heretical schism.

The Albanenses were a small Cathar community in modern day Albania, who were called Manichean centuries later after the word had ceased to refer to Manicheanism and began to refer to dualism in general.

The Astati were Paulicians who apparently "renewed the tenets of Manicheanism." Sounds more like an argument for inter-gnostic relations and depth than a candidate for a Manichean heresy.

Chinese Manicheanism ("Monijiao") was deeply sinicized and survived centuries after their western co-religionists had gone extinct. As a heresy, its probably the best candidate based on doctrine, since it seems to have incorporated Taoist scriptures. The main issue, however, is that it was Chinese, centered in southern China, and thus never really went back west to the area the game takes place in. Making this its heresy would thus allow a hypothetical Manichean kingdom in the southern Mediterranean with low MA spawn what is effectively a Chinese religion, despite lacking contact with China.​

 

[CatilinamSum]

Having read some literature on the Manicheans, I'm back with new ideas.

I now believe that Mandaeism is the best heresy option. Mani was born into a Sabian community (alternatively called Baptists, Elchasaites, Mughtalisites, or Mandaeans). They professed belief in Christ whilst also upholding Jewish laws and maintaining certain pagan practices. According to primary sources in Tardieu’s Manichaeism, many of them “venerated the stars.” Their dietary laws were very strict.

In a striking parallel with Jesus, Mani came frequently into conflict with the teachers of his native religion over doctrine. These disagreements became more and more pronounced as Mani grew older, before he finally broke with the Baptists entirely and founded his own movement. Despite this, the Baptists continued to exist in some form or other for centuries.

Features include:

• No religious head (and none can exist)
• Are born with Zodiac signs (reflecting their veneration of the stars)
• Monogamous; no concubinage
• Rulers can order unlanded courtiers to take the vows

The county of Kufa is Mandaean in all start dates.

In addition, here are two unique decisions that reflect important elements of Manichaeism. The numbers could easily be tweaked for balance.

• Embrace Syncretism: While Manichaeism was a fairly dogmatic religion which proselytized new converts, it also adapted its creed to local sensibilities. A major example of this is the inclusion of Lao-Tze, the Taoist sage and teacher, as a prophet in Chinese Manichean tradition. This decision is available once every 10 years, and costs 50 Piety. It is available to all Manichean rulers. Upon selecting the decision, the ruler may choose any of the “Sympathy for X Religion” traits, or cancel the decision and have the Piety cost refunded.

• Patronize Art: Mani was described as a “master of pictorial art,” even by his critics, and Manichaeism was a moment rooted in aesthetics. Patronize Art represents the artistic influence of Manichaeism on the cultures that adopted this strange faith. This decision is available once every 10 years to independent Manichean rulers. Taking the decision costs a considerable, scaling amount of gold. In return, Manichean Moral Authority is raised by 5% for 10 years, and the ruler gains a modifier granting +1 Piety and +1 Prestige for 2 years.

 

[Shadoon4]

Having read some literature on the Manicheans, I'm back with new ideas.

I now believe that Mandaeism is the best heresy option. Mani was born into a Sabian community (alternatively called Baptists, Elchasaites, Mughtalisites, or Mandaeans). They professed belief in Christ whilst also upholding Jewish laws and maintaining certain pagan practices. According to primary sources in Tardieu’s Manichaeism, many of them “venerated the stars.” Their dietary laws were very strict.

In a striking parallel with Jesus, Mani came frequently into conflict with the teachers of his native religion over doctrine. These disagreements became more and more pronounced as Mani grew older, before he finally broke with the Baptists entirely and founded his own movement. Despite this, the Baptists continued to exist in some form or other for centuries.

Features include:

• No religious head (and none can exist)
• Are born with Zodiac signs (reflecting their veneration of the stars)
• Monogamous; no concubinage
• Rulers can order unlanded courtiers to take the vows

The county of Kufa is Mandaean in all start dates.

In addition, here are two unique decisions that reflect important elements of Manichaeism. The numbers could easily be tweaked for balance.

• Embrace Syncretism: While Manichaeism was a fairly dogmatic religion which proselytized new converts, it also adapted its creed to local sensibilities. A major example of this is the inclusion of Lao-Tze, the Taoist sage and teacher, as a prophet in Chinese Manichean tradition. This decision is available once every 10 years, and costs 50 Piety. It is available to all Manichean rulers. Upon selecting the decision, the ruler may choose any of the “Sympathy for X Religion” traits, or cancel the decision and have the Piety cost refunded.

• Patronize Art: Mani was described as a “master of pictorial art,” even by his critics, and Manichaeism was a moment rooted in aesthetics. Patronize Art represents the artistic influence of Manichaeism on the cultures that adopted this strange faith. This decision is available once every 10 years to independent Manichean rulers. Taking the decision costs a considerable, scaling amount of gold. In return, Manichean Moral Authority is raised by 5% for 10 years, and the ruler gains a modifier granting +1 Piety and +1 Prestige for 2 years.

5% is fine when theres 1 independent manichean but if theres more than 3 its going to keep Manicheanism stably with MA >50% even with only 1 holy site (assuming player is reasonably good at Holy warring). While you have no religious head (so the threshold for GHW isnt an issue) this could lead to some balance issues, so that number def needs tweaking.

 

[Dragatus]

A better effect for being an art patron would be to get some mix of Prestige and Piety and a small temporary Diplomacy buff (+1 or +2).

 

[Tomaster]

Alternatively you could restrict to independent king or emperor-level Manicheans who aren't tribal or nomadic. And very good thoughts on Mandaeism, those simple ideas flesh it out more than the average in-game heresy already.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

Has there ever been a Mandean state? I feel like it would be really weird to represent it.
Maybe some specific traits?
And all white clothing, even fir king

 

[Shadoon4]

Alternatively you could restrict to independent king or emperor-level Manicheans who aren't tribal or nomadic. And very good thoughts on Mandaeism, those simple ideas flesh it out more than the average in-game heresy already.

Again you run into the same problem: A clever player could easily keep MA authority Catholic levels of high with only minimal effort, I'll outline it below:

1) Manichean player builds realm big enough around single holy site
2) Spam the recruit holy man -> realm priest -> convert pagans cycle
3) ???
4) Profit

And thats just one strategy for artificially keeping MA high. You could potentially create a bunch of independent king tier rulers in areas nearby your start that you don't care about by making them independent

 

[CatilinamSum]

Perhaps 1%, then? I like having means of raising moral authority outside holy sites, especially for smaller, marginalized faiths like Manichaeism.

 

[Tomaster]

The basic idea you're going for is something like the Pagan ability to raise a tribal monument for 500 gold that gives 5% MA. If it can be balanced in a similar way, it should work.

 

[CatilinamSum]

The basic idea you're going for is something like the Pagan ability to raise a tribal monument for 500 gold that gives 5% MA. If it can be balanced in a similar way, it should work.

This is a great comparison! You could even use the same event mechanics, but with different text.

 

[Me_]

Has there ever been a Mandean state? I feel like it would be really weird to represent it.
Maybe some specific traits?
And all white clothing, even fir king

I wish there were some sort of anti-crusader trait in the game. That is, a trait you can get for not fighting religious wars (hovever it would work). I imagine that Jains would be the natural goal of such suggestion, but perhaps for Mandeans too.