I've been wondering - what if the problem we are trying to solve (a good heresy for Manichaeism) is actually not a problem, but a solution to "how to make Manichaeism more distinct". What if instead of heresies Manicheanism had a different effect tied to low authority. Eg Manichaean rulers get +1 stewardship at authority above 50% and -1 at authority below 50%. Could be +2 at over 75% and -2 at below 25%. Other similar concepts could work as well.
The (un)Official Justice for Manichaeism Petition Thread
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Having looked into the Uyghur Khaganate, fair point, but it did coexist rather well there. I'd agree with you for the most part though.
Ah well, Mandaeism is the best bet for a heresy regardless I'd say.
Barring any better ideas, I'd say it's a reasonable choice. I still like the ideas of Nestorian/Buddhist/Zoroastrian being the Manichean heresies, or having no heresies at all, to reflect the many forms the faith took in the places it was practiced.
I'll try to collect the ideas from this thread one of these days and edit them into the OP.
Normally I would argue that Manichaeism was on its last legs in ck2 timeframe and of too marginal importance to bother including it...
...but if this game has flavor for Taoism (while being almost completely outside Sinosphere), Judaism (two states total with Jewish Khazaria being possibly a myth), Suomenusko, Slavic paganism, Romuva, and goddamn Bon (!), Hellenism (!!) and Zunism (!!!) - then Manichaeism certainly deserves some devs attention.
So hey, why not? Manichean Persia sounds cool, Manichean Uyghuys sound very unique, not to mention inevitable exotic mixtures such as Manichean Tibet or Ruthenia.
...but if this game has flavor for Taoism (while being almost completely outside Sinosphere), Judaism (two states total with Jewish Khazaria being possibly a myth), Suomenusko, Slavic paganism, Romuva, and goddamn Bon (!), Hellenism (!!) and Zunism (!!!) - then Manichaeism certainly deserves some devs attention.
So hey, why not? Manichean Persia sounds cool, Manichean Uyghuys sound very unique, not to mention inevitable exotic mixtures such as Manichean Tibet or Ruthenia.
The interesting thing about Manichaeism compared to a lot of those other religions is it has playable rulers in every start date from 769 to 1337.
Taoism is only playable in 769, 867 and 936.
Judaism is playable in every start date from Semien, along with the Khazars in 867 and a vassal merchant family in Pechina in 936.
Suomenusko and Romuva hang on by threads all the way too.
Slavic paganism is last playable in 1167, and gone from the map in 1200.
Bon is last playable in 1250, but stays on the map to the end.
Hellenism is never playable from the start and only exists on the map in 769.
Zunism is only playable and existent in 769.
The most interesting thing, however, is this: the last Zoroastrian rulers are a few playable counts in 936 (discounting Vushmigr for obvious reasons. Beyond this, the faith hangs on in steadily declining map areas, but is effectively doomed in every start past 1066.
Manichaeism, a supposed heresy of Zoroastrianism, outlives its 'orthodoxy' by centuries in the game history, and is virtually guaranteed to fire the heresy flip event. Should be reason enough to deserve looking at its status there, honestly.
This is an older comment, however I think it's worth pointing out that the game uses swastikas in many of the Indian coat of arms; obviously it's a different design to the Nazi swastika, being the design traditionally used by Hindus and Jains, however the point is that context matters, and it should be pretty clear that the sun cross wouldn't be in the context of Nazism or white nationalism should it be adopted as the symbol used for Manichaeism.
In any case, though, if the sun cross can't be used, I'd recommend using a symbol similar to the symbol used by EUIV when Manichaeism is converted over as a religion from CK2, seeing as this is the case for many other religions such as Catholicism (that and I personally like the symbol).
In any case, though, if the sun cross can't be used, I'd recommend using a symbol similar to the symbol used by EUIV when Manichaeism is converted over as a religion from CK2, seeing as this is the case for many other religions such as Catholicism (that and I personally like the symbol).
That symbol is hella neat. Does it have any historical basis, or is it just a cross combined with a faravahar?
I honestly don't know, I just agree that it looks really cool and it's already used in EUIV, so it's not like it's based on nothing. It also combines Christian and Zoroastrian symbolism, which I think is neat (it's still lacking any Buddhist symbolism, but I think it looks fine as is and anything else would make it look cluttered). Also, TIL that the Zoroastrian symbol is called a faravahar.
While I do agree with your conclusion, I just want to point out that ever since the introduction of secret religions and secret conversion by holy site Zunism has been playable in every start date.
In any case, though, if the sun cross can't be used, I'd recommend using a symbol similar to the symbol used by EUIV when Manichaeism is converted over as a religion from CK2, seeing as this is the case for many other religions such as Catholicism (that and I personally like the symbol).
I quite like that one. Shame I can't just steal it for a mod.
If it helps, the After the End mod (now under the After the End Fan Fork) uses versions of the EUIV symbols for Protestant (used for Evangelical), Reformed (used for Anabaptist), and Shinto in their mod. Since that Manichean symbol is also an EUIV symbol, you could try contacting them to see if they could help transfer it for use in CK2. What's the mod about, out of curiosity? I assume it has something to do with Manichaeism.
The mod in question is Reformation Reform and it's primarily about pagan reformation, but I also rebalanced other religions, giving many of them new features (for example Cathar and Bogomilist are Peaceful and have a unique anti-feudal government that forces you into a special elective succession where candidates are chosen based mostly on their Learning and Piety). I haven't gotten around to balancing the Mazdan religions yet, but when I do I intend to make Manichean a regular religion in the group instead of a Zoroastrian heresy. The main thing that's holding me back is the lack of an icon. I think I know how to add one, it's just my artistic skills that are insufficient to make one that won't look like it's been drawn by a 5-year old.
It seems to be inspired by the so-called "Manichaean cross" - a symbol of presumably Manichaean origin appearing in India.
https://jeephilip.blogspot.com/2013/07/persian-crosses-of-south-india-and-its_11.html?m=1
http://manicheanchristianity.blogspot.com/2013/02/manichean-cross.html?m=1
It also only exist on the map if you have Hellenic Revival turned on. Turn that off, and the county its present in is correctly shown as being majority Orthodox/Chalcedonian(insert complaint about early splitting of Catholic and Orthodox in order to avoid having to try and model the Great Schism here) even if there was still a Hellenic pagan minority in some small area of said county.
But yeah, definitely agree. Manicheism deserves attention far more than many other religions on the map. Unfortunately, we must have our ahistorical, overpowered paganboos instead.
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It's ironic, because if you're looking for an ancient religion to return to prominence, there are few better candidates than Manichaeism. I'd much prefer it to more forms of extinct, irrelevant paganism.
I have been thinking of the heresy issue. It seem that we have options available:
1) No heresies for Manichean just like the Eastern religions
2) A heresy that does not have a direct connection with Manichaism but shares some beliefs. For example Mandaism is both a gnostic religion and has relatively close proximitly geographicaly to the birthplace of Manichaism. That is the approach that to some extend has been used to idenify Messalianism as a heresy of Nestorianism.
3) Use Chinese - Siniced Manichaism as a heresy. Or any other what if movement of Manichaism as a possible heresy. True it would be weird if somehow this heresy would spawn in Persia or Byzantium. However if spawned via events at some point from China and gradualy moved back toward its parent religions birthplace it could make some sense. This solution would in any case need the most work from the devs.
4) Manichaism could not have any heresies but be of Cosmopolitan nature. This would make converting provinces a lot harder. In order to give it a little boost however one could also give them a monastic order (to portray also the influence of Buddism). From the 4th tier members there is a good probability that some countiea would ultamately convert via monastic order ability.
Feel free to correct me if i have left any other possible solution out.
1) No heresies for Manichean just like the Eastern religions
2) A heresy that does not have a direct connection with Manichaism but shares some beliefs. For example Mandaism is both a gnostic religion and has relatively close proximitly geographicaly to the birthplace of Manichaism. That is the approach that to some extend has been used to idenify Messalianism as a heresy of Nestorianism.
3) Use Chinese - Siniced Manichaism as a heresy. Or any other what if movement of Manichaism as a possible heresy. True it would be weird if somehow this heresy would spawn in Persia or Byzantium. However if spawned via events at some point from China and gradualy moved back toward its parent religions birthplace it could make some sense. This solution would in any case need the most work from the devs.
4) Manichaism could not have any heresies but be of Cosmopolitan nature. This would make converting provinces a lot harder. In order to give it a little boost however one could also give them a monastic order (to portray also the influence of Buddism). From the 4th tier members there is a good probability that some countiea would ultamately convert via monastic order ability.
Feel free to correct me if i have left any other possible solution out.
I read the updated post, good job!
I now think:
Instead of heresies, we could have a Manichean group which functions like the indians religions. The player can once per lifetime approach a different branch, like for Dharmic.
3 branches of manicheism. Western/middle/Eastern (just placeholder names). These 3 branches all have some special decisions tied to their location, and some possible minor differences.
Western manicheism can be tied to establish a new church, seated in Rome (?), with special interactions with Christianity.
Middle Manicheism, can have a focus both on Persia and/or Babylon, with special interactions with islam and zoro.
Eastern manicheism, special chinese interaction, special interaction with Buddhism and Taoism, focusing on china.
These 3 branches would be in relation to 3 great empires. Roman empire, Persian empire and China. A ultimate goal for them is to establish a Manichean state in their context.
How about a special decision? A Western Manis kingdom which holds Rome can form the see of Rome. The decision would create the See of Rome, with its bishop functioning as religious head, and grant a titular kingdom to the player, bringing to the table yet another "new Roman era/state" thing. The religion would be hierocratic.
Middle Manicheism I'd make autocephalous, that way we can leave the Samarkandian Yamah untouched.
There would be 2 decisions. The holder of the k_iraq would be able to exchange k_iraq for a titular k_babylon, the holder of the latter of course cannot creat k_iraq. There could be a few things tied to this.
The second decision is reforming Persia as the glorious empire of Light!
Eastern manis, I'd say autonomous leadership. I think others could suggest better decisions for this one than me. As autonomous it would be nice to pick some branch traits, fir minor boosts.
-how about a simple lvl 1 artifact "fine altar silks" to give a tiny piety/prestige bonus? It's a bit generic, but i think it could be a good lvl 1.
-the book of Giants should be usable by Jewish too.
I now think:
Instead of heresies, we could have a Manichean group which functions like the indians religions. The player can once per lifetime approach a different branch, like for Dharmic.
3 branches of manicheism. Western/middle/Eastern (just placeholder names). These 3 branches all have some special decisions tied to their location, and some possible minor differences.
Western manicheism can be tied to establish a new church, seated in Rome (?), with special interactions with Christianity.
Middle Manicheism, can have a focus both on Persia and/or Babylon, with special interactions with islam and zoro.
Eastern manicheism, special chinese interaction, special interaction with Buddhism and Taoism, focusing on china.
These 3 branches would be in relation to 3 great empires. Roman empire, Persian empire and China. A ultimate goal for them is to establish a Manichean state in their context.
How about a special decision? A Western Manis kingdom which holds Rome can form the see of Rome. The decision would create the See of Rome, with its bishop functioning as religious head, and grant a titular kingdom to the player, bringing to the table yet another "new Roman era/state" thing. The religion would be hierocratic.
Middle Manicheism I'd make autocephalous, that way we can leave the Samarkandian Yamah untouched.
There would be 2 decisions. The holder of the k_iraq would be able to exchange k_iraq for a titular k_babylon, the holder of the latter of course cannot creat k_iraq. There could be a few things tied to this.
The second decision is reforming Persia as the glorious empire of Light!
Eastern manis, I'd say autonomous leadership. I think others could suggest better decisions for this one than me. As autonomous it would be nice to pick some branch traits, fir minor boosts.
-how about a simple lvl 1 artifact "fine altar silks" to give a tiny piety/prestige bonus? It's a bit generic, but i think it could be a good lvl 1.
-the book of Giants should be usable by Jewish too.
If we're inventing a hole new religious group it might be better to make a Gnostic religious group instead of a Manichean one. But let's start with baby steps and make Manichean a non-heresy within the Mazdan group first. For heresies I think initially Manichean could just not have any heresies. It offers a good mix of historical accuracy and low workload for PDX.
Because the thing we all need to consider is that ideas are good, but someone will have to do work to actually turn them into reality. And the less work that is, the better the chance that it will be done.
Making Manichean a non-heresy by itself is very little work. All that's really needed is a new icon. Once you have the icon you can literally make Manichean into a stand-alone religion in less than 1 minute. So far so good. Adding a Learning bonus and heir designation is also very simple and will add no more than another minute or two. Throwing in the Buddhist ambitions is still under 10 minutes of work. But for artifacts and a unique great work it already begins to depend.
If you have all the numbers decided upon you should be done in an hour, maybe less. But if you don't have all the numbers decided on already, then the workload will no longer be trivial. And then with unique interactions with China, a new monastic order, and special heresy mechanics the workload becomes significant, so I'd say we drop those for now. Ideally they would be added too, but they're not essential and we should focus on the main goal.
So our request at this point should be limited to making Manichean a stand-alone religion in the Mazdan group (probably using a variant of the EU4 icon) and giving it some easily added extra features. We can still discuss the validity of each of the three (ambitions, Learning bonus, heir designation) in the thread.
If we want artifacts and great works to be added too, we need to first discuss them in detail and come up with specific numbers for everything. PDX can then choose to use our numbers or not, but the numbers we provide them with lower the workload even in the latter case because it provides them with a framework to build on.
Because the thing we all need to consider is that ideas are good, but someone will have to do work to actually turn them into reality. And the less work that is, the better the chance that it will be done.
Making Manichean a non-heresy by itself is very little work. All that's really needed is a new icon. Once you have the icon you can literally make Manichean into a stand-alone religion in less than 1 minute. So far so good. Adding a Learning bonus and heir designation is also very simple and will add no more than another minute or two. Throwing in the Buddhist ambitions is still under 10 minutes of work. But for artifacts and a unique great work it already begins to depend.
If you have all the numbers decided upon you should be done in an hour, maybe less. But if you don't have all the numbers decided on already, then the workload will no longer be trivial. And then with unique interactions with China, a new monastic order, and special heresy mechanics the workload becomes significant, so I'd say we drop those for now. Ideally they would be added too, but they're not essential and we should focus on the main goal.
So our request at this point should be limited to making Manichean a stand-alone religion in the Mazdan group (probably using a variant of the EU4 icon) and giving it some easily added extra features. We can still discuss the validity of each of the three (ambitions, Learning bonus, heir designation) in the thread.
If we want artifacts and great works to be added too, we need to first discuss them in detail and come up with specific numbers for everything. PDX can then choose to use our numbers or not, but the numbers we provide them with lower the workload even in the latter case because it provides them with a framework to build on.
If we're inventing a hole new religious group it might be better to make a Gnostic religious group instead of a Manichean one. But let's start with baby steps and make Manichean a non-heresy within the Mazdan group first. For heresies I think initially Manichean could just not have any heresies. It offers a good mix of historical accuracy and low workload for PDX.
Because the thing we all need to consider is that ideas are good, but someone will have to do work to actually turn them into reality. And the less work that is, the better the chance that it will be done.
Making Manichean a non-heresy by itself is very little work. All that's really needed is a new icon. Once you have the icon you can literally make Manichean into a stand-alone religion in less than 1 minute. So far so good. Adding a Learning bonus and heir designation is also very simple and will add no more than another minute or two. Throwing in the Buddhist ambitions is still under 10 minutes of work. But for artifacts and a unique great work it already begins to depend.
If you have all the numbers decided upon you should be done in an hour, maybe less. But if you don't have all the numbers decided on already, then the workload will no longer be trivial. And then with unique interactions with China, a new monastic order, and special heresy mechanics the workload becomes significant, so I'd say we drop those for now. Ideally they would be added too, but they're not essential and we should focus on the main goal.
So our request at this point should be limited to making Manichean a stand-alone religion in the Mazdan group (probably using a variant of the EU4 icon) and giving it some easily added extra features. We can still discuss the validity of each of the three (ambitions, Learning bonus, heir designation) in the thread.
If we want artifacts and great works to be added too, we need to first discuss them in detail and come up with specific numbers for everything. PDX can then choose to use our numbers or not, but the numbers we provide them with lower the workload even in the latter case because it provides them with a framework to build on.
Yeah, it's a pretty simple proposal - something they could easily throw into the next patch without much effort. And there have been maybe one or two people in this entire thread who expressed their disapproval; there's an overwhelming majority in favor of this.
I suppose it isn't entirely related, but I was hoping Paradox could add a Mazdan realm heraldry (Not sure what they are called, but the 3D symbol that represents your realms capital in game and has your realms flag on it, HRE has a unique one). All Mazdan religions could use it as well as Zunism, so they don't have to use the Muslim ones anymore. This is something they are clearly still doing, as they added new ones for African in Holy Fury.
I know it's just cosmetic, but I think it would help.
Also, even if Paradox doesn't want to put in work to make Manichaeism more unique, they should at least split it into a second religion in the religious group, it is kind of strange that Zoroastrianism becomes a heresy basically at the start of every game.
I know it's just cosmetic, but I think it would help.
Also, even if Paradox doesn't want to put in work to make Manichaeism more unique, they should at least split it into a second religion in the religious group, it is kind of strange that Zoroastrianism becomes a heresy basically at the start of every game.