• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Me_

Myself
82 Badges
Jan 14, 2011
9.555
12.060
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
I really don't see how there would be any benefit to making Manichaeism a separate religion. Historically it *was* treated as a Zoroastrian heresy, with the crucifixions and persecution you'd expect from that. Plus it spread like a heterodox movement, recruiting among the disaffected Zoroastrians in Persia. Plus the mechanic where a heresy becomes dominant gives a nice, dynamic way to represent the religion's rise as Zoroastrianism falls.
No

The fact that 95% of the time Zoroastrianism becomes a heresy of Manichaeism because of steppe Manichaeans expanding is neither plausible nor good gameplay. That's one of the reasons.

Plus, it did not spread mostly among Zoroastrians. It gained relatively little ground there and was strongest among the Uyghurs. Also, it was treated as heresy by a number of religions, including Christianity, because it was a mixture of elements from multiple religions.

Not sure where you got the idea that it spread "mostly in Persia". It spread very wide, being called "the only extinct global religion". It survied the longest in China and was also present in the Roman empire, influencing and inspiring a number of movements there (Pauliciams, Bogomilists).
 
Last edited:

edwardx

Lord-Palatine
100 Badges
Jan 28, 2013
366
168
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • BATTLETECH
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
Strong support. Speaking of heresies that should be their own religions, how about a look at Yazidi and Druze?

A bit off topic but i will address this idea.

Yazidi would probably be better off being broken off into Mazdan but stay a heresy as it is just too small to justify as its own religion.

Druze however should probably stay in the Muslim group due to their origin as a sect of Shia Islam. An interesting thing Paradox could do is give a number (only a few the 3 that come to mind are Druze, Bogolomists, and Cathars) of heresies/minor religions a sort of scripted 'first' appearance based off their historical emergence and that until then the heresy is deactivated. For the Druze this would be handled as a whole event chain.
  1. The first even will be a simple notification event activating Druze with the text announcing that a new creed has emerged.
  2. The rest of the events will trigger for a Shia ruler perhaps the Shia Caliph. Starting with an event where he is petitioned by the new believers to sponsor their religion. The ruler would have 4 options; persecute the faith, support the faith but stay Shia, support the faith and secretly convert, convert (doing so would destroy the Shia caliphate and create a Druze one*).
  3. From there would be a few random events every few years either turner a courtier or two, a province, or a vassal Druze. These events will be less likely should the Druze be oppressed and would automatically stop happening after 35-50 years (representing the closing of the faith**)
  4. If the ruler stays Shia and is succeded by a new ruler, the new ruler would be faced with the same event as the previous ruler had.
**The closing of the faith is tricky to represent, it is likely that had a Druze ruler arose or they were not persecuted as much that the Druze would not have closed their faith.
*As with the closing of the faith they could have ended up with a formal religious head had things gone a bit differently.

As a side note Druze and Yazidi need Reincarnation.
 
Last edited:

CatilinamSum

Pesky Immersion Guy
38 Badges
Apr 29, 2015
610
65
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II
And persecution of a religion doesn't make the persecuted religion a heresy of the persecutor.

Exactly. By that logic, we might as well make Judaism and Islam into Christian heresies.

Once again, what differentiates Manichaeism from other heresies is that it was a global phenomenon that took over a millennium to die out, and evolved far beyond its initial origins. No other heresy can make this claim; even Yazidi and Druze were limited to a small geographic area (though I'd like to see them elevated, too).
 

pengoyo

Penguin
71 Badges
Dec 9, 2015
1.337
4.017
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I've seen this proposal floating around and I can't say I care for it. Making Mandaeism a heresy of Manichaeism has the same problems as making Manichaeism a heresy of Zoroastrianism: the two movements weren't affiliated in that way.

Once again, I think it'd be neat if Manichaeism had the lack of heresies seen in eastern religions. Since they don't get GHWs, it isn't OP. We wouldn't need to worry about giving Zoroastrianism a new heresy, either, since as of Jade Dragon it now has both Mazdaki and Khurmazta.

I agree that I wouldn't want to see Mandaeism as a heresy of Manichaeism. But I do think Manichaeism should have heresies as I think this just goes hand in hand with having a religious head. If you have a religious head then you have someone who can say what are the right and wrong ways to practice the religion. And a heretic is just someone that practices the religion the "wrong" way. But others have suggested some actual Manichean heresies so those can be used instead of Mandaeism.

(Sidenote, this is why I wish the reformed pagan religions with a religious head had new heresies. I know why they didn't, but it would have been a nice touch).
 

CatilinamSum

Pesky Immersion Guy
38 Badges
Apr 29, 2015
610
65
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II
I agree that I wouldn't want to see Mandaeism as a heresy of Manichaeism. But I do think Manichaeism should have heresies as I think this just goes hand in hand with having a religious head. If you have a religious head then you have someone who can say what are the right and wrong ways to practice the religion. And a heretic is just someone that practices the religion the "wrong" way. But others have suggested some actual Manichean heresies so those can be used instead of Mandaeism.

(Sidenote, this is why I wish the reformed pagan religions with a religious head had new heresies. I know why they didn't, but it would have been a nice touch).

As others have noted, the topic of Manichaeism as a religion opens another can of worms: heresies themselves. Mandaeism isn't a wrong way of practicing Manichaeism; it's something else entirely.

That said, assuming we don't get a dynamic heresy rework, I'd settle for Mandaeism if it meant Manichaeism getting a fair shake.
 

Tomaster

Second Lieutenant
111 Badges
Jul 27, 2012
139
72
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Rome Gold
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Divine Wind
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Gettysburg
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
But others have suggested some actual Manichean heresies so those can be used instead of Mandaeism.

For the first point, Wikipedia mentions the following sects within Manichaeism, one of which could be made into a heresy:
See of Babylon
Denawars
Albanenses
Astati
Chinese Manichaeism​

The See of Babylon appears to have been a part of the mainstream Manichean Church from what I can gather, and thus is definitely not a heresy candidate.

The Denawars were the Manichean community in Sogdiana, which had a temporary schism with the western Manicheans over economics and politics as opposed to doctrine. This schism was worked out in the 8th century. This seems more akin to an antipope situation as opposed to a full-blown heretical schism.

The Albanenses were a small Cathar community in modern day Albania, who were called Manichean centuries later after the word had ceased to refer to Manicheanism and began to refer to dualism in general.

The Astati were Paulicians who apparently "renewed the tenets of Manicheanism." Sounds more like an argument for inter-gnostic relations and depth than a candidate for a Manichean heresy.

Chinese Manicheanism ("Monijiao") was deeply sinicized and survived centuries after their western co-religionists had gone extinct. As a heresy, its probably the best candidate based on doctrine, since it seems to have incorporated Taoist scriptures. The main issue, however, is that it was Chinese, centered in southern China, and thus never really went back west to the area the game takes place in. Making this its heresy would thus allow a hypothetical Manichean kingdom in the southern Mediterranean with low MA spawn what is effectively a Chinese religion, despite lacking contact with China.


I would honestly say that, differences aside, Mandaeism would probably be the best fit, even if it would be like making Judaism a Christian heresy. Mani was apparently brought up in a Mandaean sect, and took from their scriptures to form his own body of writings in part.
 

spendabuck

Colonel
60 Badges
Apr 18, 2015
1.115
389
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
The See of Babylon appears to have been a part of the mainstream Manichean Church from what I can gather, and thus is definitely not a heresy candidate.

The Denawars were the Manichean community in Sogdiana, which had a temporary schism with the western Manicheans over economics and politics as opposed to doctrine. This schism was worked out in the 8th century. This seems more akin to an antipope situation as opposed to a full-blown heretical schism.

The Albanenses were a small Cathar community in modern day Albania, who were called Manichean centuries later after the word had ceased to refer to Manicheanism and began to refer to dualism in general.

The Astati were Paulicians who apparently "renewed the tenets of Manicheanism." Sounds more like an argument for inter-gnostic relations and depth than a candidate for a Manichean heresy.

Chinese Manicheanism ("Monijiao") was deeply sinicized and survived centuries after their western co-religionists had gone extinct. As a heresy, its probably the best candidate based on doctrine, since it seems to have incorporated Taoist scriptures. The main issue, however, is that it was Chinese, centered in southern China, and thus never really went back west to the area the game takes place in. Making this its heresy would thus allow a hypothetical Manichean kingdom in the southern Mediterranean with low MA spawn what is effectively a Chinese religion, despite lacking contact with China.


I would honestly say that, differences aside, Mandaeism would probably be the best fit, even if it would be like making Judaism a Christian heresy. Mani was apparently brought up in a Mandaean sect, and took from their scriptures to form his own body of writings in part.
See, I agree with you on all of these not being suitable heresies, however I don't believe Mandaeism is a suitable heresy either, given that it's a distinct religion in its own right and, as you say, would be akin to making Judaism a Christian heresy, or even the current situation where Manichaeism is a Zoroastrian heresy, which is what started this thread in the first place. I think it would be best to just leave Manichaeism without any heresies like the Eastern religions, if anything simply due to the lack of any movement within the game's time period/location that could be a suitable Manichean heresy.
 

manager2525

Colonel
42 Badges
Oct 27, 2012
802
1.236
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
I don't think heresies really put a limit on the power of a religion. They tend to spawn when a religion is doing poorly, which is usually the consequence of losing ground to infidels or being weak to begin with. If a religion is in a position of strength heresies won't spawn much to begin with. So heresies can cripple an already weak religion, but they will do little to curb the power of a strong one.

Fair point but we also need to take into account the cases in between. A religion that is "doing ok" meaning Moral Authority between 60 to 80. For those cases heresies do pop up and make the game a little more interesting IMHO or at least occupy your court priest for some time.

In the cases of the Indian religions its a bit more difficult to get the MA up due to not having a religious head but, on the other hand, once you convert a province you do not need to bother yourself with it permenantly.

Anyway we must not forget that if you manage to get a one realm religion up to 100% MA you are probably too strong for any challenge the game will provide. My point is that heresies do provide some challenge for early - mid game.

I do strongly believe, as others pointed out, that a religion having a head should also have heresies for gameplay - balance issues.

Maybe an alternative would be to give Manichaism a Cosmopolitan nature, being able of intermarriage with Christians, Jewish, Zoroastrians and all Eastern religions (except Hinduism). Also a chance to add Muslims into the fold via decision. That would make sence gameplay wise and one could argue that Manicheans tryied to get along with other religions wherever they went (though they were never the dominant religion with the exception of the Uyghurs). Seeing though how wildly unpopular Cosmopolitan nature is i don't believe that many would support such a solution.

Edit:
What i mean is Cosmopolitan Nature would not require a heresy since it so bad at converting anything. It is self-crippling. :p:p
 
Last edited:

Aquamancer

Major
53 Badges
May 7, 2018
568
1.542
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
See, I agree with you on all of these not being suitable heresies, however I don't believe Mandaeism is a suitable heresy either, given that it's a distinct religion in its own right and, as you say, would be akin to making Judaism a Christian heresy, or even the current situation where Manichaeism is a Zoroastrian heresy, which is what started this thread in the first place. I think it would be best to just leave Manichaeism without any heresies like the Eastern religions, if anything simply due to the lack of any movement within the game's time period/location that could be a suitable Manichean heresy.

What about Sabians or Elkasites/Ebonites? In some mods, they were made Manichaean heresies. In addition, some people have proposed making Gnostic groups and movement such as Bardaisanite, Priscillian, Sethian, Valentinian, Simonian and Archontics heresies of Manichaean religion, though these might be pretty farfetched considering that they were pretty much extinct by the time of Early Middle Ages. Someone even proposed that if the devs really want to stretch it, the White Lotus Society in China could be added as a Manichaean heresy, since they mixed Manicheanism with Buddhism and traditional Chinese religious beliefs.

Speaking of the Manichaean sects like Denawars, perhaps the best way to cover them would be not to represent them as heresies, but instead to implement traits to represent the sects, similar to Dharmic religious branches? Supposedly, at the time of the game there were three major Manichaean sects:
* The Mihriyands, who were the largest of the three groups, were centered in Iraq and central Iran, followed an Archegos based in Baghdad, and were very open to outside inflence and freely adopted Muslim names and dress;
* The Miqlasi, who seem to have flourished in Media and Kurdistan, and were strict adherants to Manichaean/Persian ritual and custom;
* And the Denawars, who were centered in the eastern Iranian lands, were responsible for spreading Manichaeanism among the Uyghurs and into China, were the longest-lasting branch of Manichaeanism, and held a middle-of-the-road position between the ultra-orthodox Miqlasi and the Islamising Mihriyands, being strict in their adherence to Manichaean/Persian ritual and custom, but still willing to give concessions to local customs of the converted Uyghurs and Chinese.

I could see the different Manichaean sects being represented via traits akin to the Dharmic religious branches: Mihriyands could have opinion boost with other religions (and possibly the ability to acquire sympathy to a local religion), Denawars could have a bonus to proselytizing, and Miqlasi could have a church opinion/monthly piety bonus.

In addition, it might be a good idea to allow Manicheans (and several other religions) to choose to become vegetarian, granting them "Vegetarian" trait. Considering that vegetarianism is represented in many in-game religions and heresies either as a core tenet (like in Dharmic religions, Mazdaki, Qarmatian and Catharism) or as an idealized lifestyle choice (like Judaism, Taoism and Zoroastrianism), implementing vegetarian trait and vegetarian flavour events would enable those features to be utilized in several religions which practiced it.

And finally, while some ideas for how to represent the division between the Hearers/lay followers and the Elect/monks and nuns, an alternative way to represent the division of the Manichaean faithful would be to represent the Hearers and the Elect via a "caste" system akin to The Winter King mod. Characters with the "Elect" trait would get piety and learning bonuses with a malus to income and fertility, while characters with the "Hearer" trait would get a bonus to taxation and prestige. The traits would be partially hereditary; children of Elect would get the option to join the Elect upon childhood, but not firmly; pious and virtuous Hearers could become Elect, while Elect that fall to material temptations may be demoted to the ranks of the Hearers.
 

jonjowett

Field Marshal
83 Badges
Aug 31, 2012
3.333
1.949
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
If there really aren't any appropriate heresies for Manichaeism, would a new mechanic work?

Specifically:
- Manichaeism has no hardcoded in-game heresies.
- Whenever the game needs to pick a random Manichaen heresy, it picks a random gnostic/manichaen-influenced religion.

So, when Manichaeism has low MA, a Manichaen province might flip to Bogomilist. When your court chaplain asks you to convert to a heresy, that heresy might be Zoroastrianism. etc.

In order to prevent Manichaeism from dying out too quickly, you might also want to implement a similar mechanic in reverse - eg. a Bogomilist county might flip to Manichaen. (Otherwise characters/counties would be able to flip out of Manichaen but not back in.)

(Final paragraph edited for clarity.)
 
Last edited:

manager2525

Colonel
42 Badges
Oct 27, 2012
802
1.236
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
In addition, it might be a good idea to allow Manicheans (and several other religions) to choose to become vegetarian, granting them "Vegetarian" trait. Considering that vegetarianism is represented in many in-game religions and heresies either as a core tenet (like in Dharmic religions, Mazdaki, Qarmatian and Catharism) or as an idealized lifestyle choice (like Judaism, Taoism and Zoroastrianism), implementing vegetarian trait and vegetarian flavour events would enable those features to be utilized in several religions which practiced it.

A bit off topic but i would really like to see a vegetarian trait in game. It makes so much sense for many religions!
 

Patriarch of Bub

Lauc hum et Folgoratrix
28 Badges
Sep 11, 2017
1.206
617
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Though i can't add much to the topic, just want to remind the current ways to represent stuff, as to better lay out our proposals.

- Religious groupings. Such as catholic, orthodox, nestorian, miaphysite.

- Heresy system.

- We have traits such as the ones used in the Dharmic religions.

- we have societies. Could be used to represents certain branches of religions, maybe Sufism?

I'll see if i come up with some more suggestions. :)
 

LumberKing

Philosopher
104 Badges
Dec 16, 2013
3.838
480
www.christianforums.com
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • March of the Eagles
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due

CatilinamSum

Pesky Immersion Guy
38 Badges
Apr 29, 2015
610
65
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II
The Elkasites are the Mandaean sect that Mani was brought up in, and Sabians are believed to be the Quranic term for Mandaeans in general. You may as well make it Mandaeism.

I suppose I'd be for it in the sense that it's a "reversion" to Manichaeism's origins, in the same way "Old Norse" becomes the heresy of reformed Norse.
 

Tomaster

Second Lieutenant
111 Badges
Jul 27, 2012
139
72
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Rome Gold
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Divine Wind
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Gettysburg
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I suppose I'd be for it in the sense that it's a "reversion" to Manichaeism's origins, in the same way "Old Norse" becomes the heresy of reformed Norse.
Alternatively we could go with the idea a few posts up and make it cosmopolitan. From my experience as a cosmopolitan Bon empire though, conversion becomes nigh-impossible. Likely by design though, and may represent Manichaeism better.
 

CatilinamSum

Pesky Immersion Guy
38 Badges
Apr 29, 2015
610
65
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II
Alternatively we could go with the idea a few posts up and make it cosmopolitan. From my experience as a cosmopolitan Bon empire though, conversion becomes nigh-impossible. Likely by design though, and may represent Manichaeism better.

Cosmopolitan offends my map-painting sensibilities. It's fine on pagan reformations because we can choose it, but I'd rather not see it on Manichaeism - which actively proselytized with missionaries.