The tutorial scenario & learning experience is terrible!

[unmerged(168)]

Please view this as constructive criticism.

These are my initial critical impressions. I have waited since Jan 2000 for this game and I really want to like it, but I have severe reservations about recommending it to less enthusiastic friends.

I decided to play by the rules and master the tutorial scenario before diving into the GC.

First of all, the tutorial scenario is boring and unreliable. I have just spent 30 game years playing the tutorial, and I can't declare war on the Mamelukes to finish the scenario. The in-game and tutorial instructions were vague and difficult to follow. If I weren't such a diehard, I would be returning this game to EB immediately.

I am sure I missed some key clue, but I can't find it. I replayed the tutorial reading every message like a legal document since I am afraid to miss anything. Reading legal documents is NOT my idea of fun.

Did you test this 'learning' scenario with people who never played before? I usually understand complex games within 30 minutes, but after 6 hours I am still frustrated by many game mechanics.

Also, the 'Learning section' of the manual appears to have very little to do with the actual tutorial scenario. It doesn't help much.

Finally, the 120 page manual doesn't have an index. There may be alot of info in there, but if I can't find it easily, it is not much use.

Compared to the learning/tutorial experience of AOE II, I rate EU a 2 on a scale of 10.

If you can't easily and enjoyably learn the game system, you can't enjoy the game.

I have waited over a year for this game, and after six hours of playing I am enormously disappointed. If it doesn't get better, I may give up tomorrow and return it to EB.

 

[unmerged(859)]

I can only support your remarks on the quality of the tutorial.

I played for some years, with some mostly useless commentaries from the computer I got bored after 10 years or so and just quit. If people really try to get to know EU using the tutorial you will loose a lot of potential fans.

From my point of view, the best way to learn the game is play a few years with several major powers.

I played 30 Years as Spain until I got the colonization right, than a slightly longer scenario as Portugal, before deciding to go for the easier start of Russia. And that's basically what I would suggest as a beginner Program.

One minor scenario playing Portugal to learn about colonization ( Goal like having a colony in India other than the one you first know about.
Then one as Russia with goal annexing Kazan and Golden Horde or so to learn a few things about military.
And then Spain or France to try a big picture campaign.

You can give some very detailed advice for the first two, and they would be much more fun than starting in an basically empty world, where all the fun of EU (seeing European history evolve before you) is completely missing.

Hope this helps in designing a better way for EU2

Ciao
Kulko

 

[unmerged(1063)]

Use GC

I gave up with the tutorial after about 15 minutes. I, too, would probably have returned it had I not decide to give the GC a shot. 5:30 in the morning and I still couldn't walk away!!!

Play the GC without any big expectations and duff around with it, set your own goals etc. The game is a lot easier to learn than the manual and the tutorial would have you believe.

 

[BiB]

I didn't buy no game for a silly tutorial. Just dig right in where it matters, the GC. Maybe a few learning scenarios like Kulko suggested if u really wanna know the lot about game mechanics but otherwise get stuck right in.

 

[Hartmann]

I have to agree, that the tutorial is not that good. IMHO the best tutorial is choosing Russia in the GC. Everything develops nicely in a step by step way here:

1. At first You have only standard business (armies, war, diplomacy etc.)
2. Later You´ll get some colonists.
3. You only have to deal with navy, when You have conquered Your first harbour.

The tutorial was confusing to me. So was choosing Portugal as You have to give attention to all options at once.
Playing Russia got me into the game.

Hartmann

 

[jztemple]

I agree that getting started in the game can be difficult. The tutorial demonstrates some of the mechanics of the game but really doesn't prepare you for the Grand Campaign. A good solution might be to provide a simple text document with some instructions and suggestions on what to do and what to look for in the first few turns of a Grand Campaign game.

 

[grumbold]

I didn't find the tutorial TOO bad, although having all that empty space did tend to distract from the scenario objectives. The fact that expanding your colonies aggressively actually made research take longer was a little surprising, and something I might have missed in a GC game where colonists are not in such plentiful supply. I played through twice to the point of warring against the Mamelukes only to find one big problem. On the default message box settings you are not properly invited to join in the war against them. You promptly dishonour your alliance and cannot DOW the Mamelukes on your own for 5 years (presumably because you are treated as having made a peace treaty). Omitting the save/load options on the tutorial makes this infuriating.

Jumping straight into the GC is dodgy, particularly if you pick the wrong country. One UK review was decidedly lukewarm, probably because they did the natural thing and played England. Definitely not the right thing to do until you know what you are doing! Russia is certainly far more intuitive. About the only mistake you can make is to get your badboy rating up too high too fast. No colonists without a port and no explorers (or anywhere to go) until later in the game keeps you focussed on getting the military and economics right. Perfect.

 

[unmerged(1142)]

My first post! Anyway, I played the tutorial first also and I actually liked it. It did get my expectations a little too high on what I might be able to do in the GC, but seeing Irish troops invade Alexandria was neat. 'Sir, aren't ye glad we wore our kilts down here? It's a wee bit warm don't ye think?'

I next played the American Revolution, which definitely got my attention. I learned very quickly how to manage a war and the value of good leaders.

Now I'm playing England in the GC and having a blast. All in all, a natural progression I would say.

By the way, I've been lurking on these boards since December reading all the AARs and saoking up all the advice, so maybe that helped me. I don't know.

 

[unmerged(1129)]

I think the problem for most people with the tutorial is that they don't pay close enough attention to what it's asking you to do! =)

I played through the tutorial about five times (and beat the snot out of the Marmeluks the fifth time in a 6-hour marathon session that was absolutely fantastic). I found that carefully reading the menu pop-ups, the 'more' options, and then making sure that I always knew what my next goal was, allowed me to move through the tutorial without any problems.

Perhaps the real problem is that the scope of even the tutorial can be fairly large, and once your 'current goal' pops up and disappears, you can't go back and dig it out (that's the design weakness--the fact that there's not 'current goal' info box that stays on the screen until you accomplish it).

One thing that is done well is the green navigational arrow--once you find the Cataluyans, all you have to do is follow the green arrow to the Marmeluks (it a ways off-screen...think Mediterranean...think northeastern Africa).

After that, you're supposed to build a city in a Spanish province, and then declare war on the Marmeluks in accordance with your alliance with the Cataluyans (I'm sure I'm spelling that name wrong--bear with me).

The war takes awhile--especially figuring out the game mechanics of sieges and such--but I beat it (finally) last night, with a score of 101 (whatever that means in the greater scheme of things).

 

[unmerged(664)]

Gave up on the tutorial before very long. I didn't think it followed the philosophy of a decent tutorial, which should be a brief introduction to critical game mechanics. Did get some of that, but what I did NOT want to do was spend several hours trying to get a ship to the far end of the Mediterranean all the while learning more than I ever wanted to know about attrition!

Subsequently played a short scenario and am embarked on a GC, though, and the mists are indeed parting to a fair degree...though I am still a bit foggy on COTs/sending merchants/trade value of goods issues, some diplomacy nuances, and haven't seen an explorer yet. Am only about 35 pages into the manual, though, and have hopes that between finishing the manual and a GC as an 'easy' power I will be up to speed in a mediocre sort of way before too long. As a last resort, I can always search this forum on specific areas of concern...there's a lot of meat out here thanks to the six-month lead time the game had in Europe and some remarkably brilliant and amiable fellows who've been contributing.

My advice, then, would be to go ahead and play the tutorial (which BTW has some VERY unhelpful issues with leaving graphical debris behind on the Info Screen side) until you find Catalunya and then get the rest of your education elsewhere. Just my 2 cents. Which reminds me, I also need to get a handle on managing inflation!

Kurt

 

[unmerged(930)]

I think the tutorial serves a purpose of allowing you to become familiar with some of the game mechanics. If you expect more than that, you may be disappointed. However, I was frustrated by being unable to declare war on the Marmelukes, except in conjunction with my alliance with Catalunya. At the time that happened, I simply didn't have troops in the right place to bring to bear, and the war ended and I failed that mission. Later, I could not declare war on the Marmelukes when I was in position to do so. That was rather frustrating. Otherwise, the tutorial did teach me some basic game mechanics and the rudiments of diplomacy. So, if that was the purpose, the tutorial suceeded. I think perhaps that some of you were expecting too much from the tutorial.

 

[grumbold]

I didn't have any graphical problems, perhaps that is a card-specific problem?

Managing inflation is easy. Just don't spend any money on Treasury, live within your annual budget Of course doing this and managing to expand steadily is pretty impossible so you have to make a choice what level is tolerable. 1% inflation annually is nothing in modern terms. The trade off is more about research vs cash. I try and get my infrastructure and trade up quickly so at least when I open the taps and start filling the Treasury the return is worth it.

 

[unmerged(1129)]

You keep inflation low by keeping your treasury pull low. You offset this monthly (and yearly) by improving your infrastructure. The tutorial doesn't say much about this, but you can really, really get things smoking by getting those colonies built up into full blown cities (note the HUGE jump in both internal production and trade when you take a colony over to a city).

Also, note that population is tied to production value. Remember that little enticing tidbit about natives being converted to population when you convert to a city? If you have enough military to manage this, keep between 8,000-10,000 troops in a province (to manage native flareups) until you've got it colonized through six levels to city level...voila! If you had 8,000 natives, you now have an 8,000+ city pop.

But be careful about leaving these folks unchecked, however. I did this initially...turned around and found half my colonies taken over by the natives! And they seem to be considerably tougher to kill off in a colony than as uncolonized bands.

 

[unmerged(1081)]

learn from Russia

I too found the tutorial a bust, though i admit it did serve the purpose of introducing basic familiarity with the interface. And i heartily concur that Russia makes an excellent introductory empire in the grand campaign. You start small and must gradually familiarize yourself with different aspects of the game, by the time i was engaged in a great european war i felt like i was a pro Other countries (like Spain!) are just too busy at the start to make much sense to a newbie.

I submit that not even the manual is going to do you much good until you've got your feet wet. The parts of the manual i've reread since playing were cast in a whole new light now that i have some experience.

 

[unmerged(940)]

With all due respect to the other threads, this is the best (and most crucial) one thus far. I have always approached strategy/wargames in a very anal-retentive way. I first read everything, readmes, manuals cover to cover, etc. Then I master the tutorial. If a game does not have a tutorial, I won't treat it seriously and thus, it would have limited appeal to me, no matter how good the main game is. That's just my way of approaching things, just the complete opposite of slapping it in and start messing around. The tutorial can be a graphical step-by-step (prefered) or at least, a walkthrough from the manual. However, it must introduce all of the major aspects of the game.

Having said that and reading this thread, I can see that European developers AGAIN have not understood the full potential of tutorials. That is unfortunate. Even if the tutorial was clear and comprehensive, the fact that you cannot save it is stupid. I heard it can sometimes take 8 hours to complete the tutorial. It is impossible for me to get more than 2 hours of play time in any given day. I don't mind if a tutorial would take a week to get through, but let me play it at my pace.

It seems the workaround is to play Russia in GC. I think what would help IMMENSELY is for someone to write up a step-by-step walkthrough of the tutorial or the Russian GC. Can someone help someone like me?

 

[jls211]

Buc,

I gave up on the tutorial before even finding the coast of France, let alone them there Spaniards. I jumped into the GC using Russia (I have a reasonable interest in their history) at Normal/Normal AI settings. First time out, I couldn't get any cash built up.

I restarted a second time with the same settings. I annexed all of Kazan within five years and sent merchants all over the place, and now have a positive cash flow. I'm up to 1508(?) and just took Finland for its port so I can build a navy and get colonists. Now all I need is an explorer. Sorry I can't give much more information, but I only got the game Saturday myself.

 

[unmerged(164)]

Dive in head first. I didn't touch the tutorial or even consider doing so. I jumped in with the Turks, a land based power so the complexity level wouldn't be too high. Now I am playing the Russians.

 

[unmerged(942)]

Personally, I enjoyed the tutorial and found it helpful. I agree with the earlier post(s) on the importance of the popups and serious omission of a way to recall previous screens should the player messup or become directionless. Because the tutorial is scripted, if the player doesn't understand he must make a decision when the popup appears asking if the alliance will be honored and closes the window instead, the tutorial appears to be unable to be completed. Fortunately, I am also a tad anal retentive. I paused the game at each popup, read, followed the directions and didn't have a problem.

 

[unmerged(168)]

I am glad to see I am not the only One!

I am getting ready to dive into the GC and I am sure I will love it.

I just hope that Paradox can design a better, more fun tutorial for later releases.

I would like to recommend this game to friends, but most of them will not tolerate a tutorial that you need to replay 4 times over 8 hours.

This game has a steep learning curve, and they need a FUN tutorial to get newbies up it quickly.

If I hadn't read all the AAR's over the last year, I would have thought this game was boring (like math homework) based solely on the tutorial.

 

[aletoledo]

I too played the tutorial(twice) getting stuck at the part about declaring war. I really began to see a lot more of the politics of declaring war in th GC.

the thing about the tutorial though is it starts you out small, a single province is a lot easier to look at then trying to scroll across the map of russia(though I haven't played them yet). so I think everyone should play the tutorial up to a point at least, that way you understand a bit about provvinces, creating troops and moving.