The Tsunami game.... the _big_ one

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
Well I wasn´t worried about England but that Denmark would become dismembered by Russia, Sweden and France..

I would then have been all alone on my island.

With a Friend in Asia

FWIW, the real boost to the cost of diplomatic gifts came in 1766, when Queen Anne died rather belatedly. She was supposed to die in 1714, but due to some screwup in the English event lines it is possible to sleep every monarch that could take over from her until Charles III (#0003) in 1766. (As far as I have been able to reconstruct. A minute examination of the English monarchlist in the various savefiles from the eighteenth century will probably expand on the issue). With a diplomatic skill of 1 (after dp-modifications), it is guaranteed that gifts from him will be exceedingly large.

In fact, the Mughal gifts for the use of Ganges, Palakimedi, and Bombay did not begin in the 1750'ies as you imply in the latest AAR update. They began already in the 1720'ies and were continued by Barnius when he stood in for you in the forties and early fifties, a sure sign that it was a very good deal for both parties involved

(By my best estimate, it only became more profitable for the Mughal Empire to control the provinces by itself around 1782 when trade 5 was reached, as the income from the provinces would approach half the gift size, and the extra merchant would allow me to attempt to keep merchants in at least one CoT. But, with constant high relations, acting against the English without provocation was of course out of the question)


Though playing Poland in the 1620'ies and thirties was fun (nothing like facing enemies on all sides and still trying to roleplay your monarch ), I can only wish I had commanded the Mughal Empire in those years. With a start date thirty years earlier than I actually got control of them, the Mughal Empire could have had a considerable influence on late game affairs, rather than being reduced to bullying the other Asian powers into the semblance of peaceful coexistence.

 

[Wyvern]

I just love Mowers statement to Russia as seen in the screenshot - "You keep attacking me - again and again and again - give me back Finnmark". The only previous invasion of Denmark by Russia of course was actually the time I gained Finnmark - I guess it left a lasting impression .

I won't deny that if Austria hadn't switched sides there would have been a second determined invasion though (we did have a little clash at the beginning of that war before Russia peaced out). Once that had happened and Sweden was shown to be on the Danish side, Denmark was always safe from Russian invasion. Danish possessions only made sense for Russia if Sweden was friendly after all, otherwise they were too vulnerable, better to try and gain Finland proper instead from Sweden, which we'd have managed to do, but for the duplicity of the English the first time when she WP'ed us out of the war, and then their invasion of Moscow in the final war which forced us to let our recent gains revolt away and form the free Finnish state - we had a little chuckle when that happened and they didn't just defect back to Sweden as everyone seemed to think they would .

The English duplicity in signing a WP in that first war led directly to Russia and Austria leaving the English alliance, even though intellectually we knew we'd likely be on the weaker side in the final showdown. Sometimes you just have to do the honourable thing and screw the consequences . Of course past English sins were all forgiven when ArchDuke inflicted a fairly lenient peace deal on Russia and followed it up with funds to help us fight the mass rebellions that were raging across the Russian heartlands at the time of the Muslims invasion. Apparently ArchDuke hadn't really liked giving all that money to the Mughals and wanted to take out a subtle revenge.

In the end the only province Russia gave up from the great wars of the late 18th and early 19th centuries was Finnmark going back to Denmark (a worthless province really which we held for around 50 years I think - we did convert it to the Orthodox faith though, bet that please Mowers ) and then of course the two Swedish Finnish provinces we'd gained two months earlier. So those who seem to imply that Russia came out of this period weakened don't really have their facts right .

We lost one war, won another and were in a position to swarm over China when the game ended....

 

[unmerged(11031)]

Ahha but you were an englightened bully, Peter.

 

[Wyvern]

Oh and Peter, I see you've put up the wrong war score screenshot - the real one was -99% for your side at the end remember . See my earlier post were I've edited in the right picture.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Oh and Peter, I see you've put up the wrong war score screenshot - the real one was -99% for your side at the end remember . See my earlier post were I've edited in the right picture.

As I clearly stated earlier in the thread, and as Chief Scientist implied in the AAR entry, these are the screenshots from when the war in the north turned decisively to your advantage, not the screenshot from the time of the peace. As such, I fail to see how you can label them wrong, as I have never claimed that they represent the end result at the time of the peace treaty.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Wyvern

The English duplicity in signing a WP in that first war led directly to Russia and Austria leaving the English alliance, even though intellectually we knew we'd likely be on the weaker side in the final showdown. Sometimes you just have to do the honourable thing and screw the consequences . Of course past English sins were all forgiven when ArchDuke inflicted a fairly lenient peace deal on Russia and followed it up with funds to help us fight the mass rebellions that were raging across the Russian heartlands at the time of the Muslims invasion. Apparently ArchDuke hadn't really liked giving all that money to the Mughals and wanted to take out a subtle revenge.

Switching to the winning side when the peace was going badly for France was not nice.

And about the money. Well I somehow wanted to do a "subtle" revenge on Peter for milking me like that. Although as he stated it benefited both.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by TheArchduke

And about the money. Well I somehow wanted to do a "subtle" revenge on Peter for milking me like that. Although as he stated it benefited both.

Fair enough, though "subtle" is perhaps too strong a word, since you pulled out of Russia almost immediately after the Muslim alliance intervened, partly on your behalf. (Okay, that was only my motive. The motives of the OE and Persia were rather more crass).

As for revenge for the many "The Bursar is having problems with the Abacus - the Mughal gift seems to have been delayed, King of the English? Perhaps parliament is being stubborn?" or the "The Bursar notes that England is now 7 gifts in arrear." (or 3, 4, 5, or 6) - England received such an encouraging message nearly every year - it was fairly mild, all things considered, especially as the revenge did not really cost the Mughal Empire anything serious. (Total war losses amounted to seven months of income)

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Fair enough, though "subtle" is perhaps too strong a word, since you pulled out of Russia almost immediately after the Muslim alliance intervened, partly on your behalf. (Okay, that was only my motive. The motives of the OE and Persia were rather more crass).

As for revenge for the many "The Bursar is having problems with the Abacus - the Mughal gift seems to have been delayed, King of the English? Perhaps parliament is being stubborn?" or the "The Bursar notes that England is now 7 gifts in arrear." (or 3, 4, 5, or 6) - England received such an encouraging message nearly every year - it was fairly mild, all things considered, especially as the revenge did not really cost the Mughal Empire anything serious. (Total war losses amounted to seven months of income)

It´s also a bit of roleplay and politics. The more strong powers on the continent the less likely one of them has the idea to threaten England´s supremacy. With the Russian threat gone some powers would have more time threatening me.

 

[Damocles]

I wouldnt say it was a great betrayal, rather that the countries that had been bullied into supporting France realised that France would only attack them next anyway. For example, the whole "FARCS is now FARC debacle", was bad mismanagement, ordering the throwing out of your own allies tut tut.

Mowers Mowers Mowers.

The whole reason I wanted to throw Sweden out of the alliance was because he was betraying me. I deduced his secret conversations with the Danish and English alliance. Everyone in our alliance at the time saw me confront him directly about it.

My alliance was also not built around bullying Austria or Russia. The three of us continental powers actually came to a real conclusion that in order to win, we had to take out the imperialist countries. The betrayal was incredibly shocking, as Johan effectively threw the game away.

I would never backstab my own alliance. The one thing I learned from Ulver is that trust is the most important commodity in diplomacy. I stood alone most of the game, so I was hardly bullying anyone. In case you forget, most of the 18th century was Holland's massive power bloc bullying ME around. So of course, after I emerged on top due to Red's attempted backstabbing, I felt prefect justification in kicking arse and taking a few names. Then I tried to win the game flat out, failed, and settled with just taking a few more names and a kicking a it more arse.

I did bitchslap Holland and Sweden around, but they deserved it.

 

[Mowers]

Mowers mowers mowers

The problem is that you needed to defeat England and Denmark, and without naval support that was never going to happen, you could build the biggest army in the world but it still wasnt going to do you any good when it couldnt cross water.

Holland could have provided that naval capability you so badly needed but you treated the replacement player so terribly that he had no real desire to fight England or Denmark. You might have been able to coerce Spain and portugal but, again your 'attitude' made them enemies. Thus you destroyed your last chance of ever winning, and thus your gamble was never even that.

But it was always going to be a long shot, the damage had been done some time before. Unfortunately you never got around to building a navy or developing a trade block of your own in your tenure, whether that would have been a feasible tactic anyhow is debatable.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by Wyvern
I just love Mowers statement to Russia as seen in the screenshot - "You keep attacking me - again and again and again - give me back Finnmark". The only previous invasion of Denmark by Russia of course was actually the time I gained Finnmark - I guess it left a lasting impression .

It was part of my blackmail campaign

Finmark was the only peice of mainland territory ever ceeded so it did have an impact, especially after I had spent a fortune building it up from 1700 people to 5400 people just to have a full strength fortress! That was alot of colonists...

Austria was infinitely worse mind you, it did attack denmark a number of times and failed dramatically in some truely awfully advised assaults.

You were always going to get it if I could arrange it after you plotted to get Denmark in that war. I was behind the efforts to ensure you got nothing in the first war, after all sweden had been feeding me very interesting information. Indeed I was the driving force behind Damo to get the second war started. You were lucky to survive it but I dont need to tell you that. Shame that England started to fund you, I unwittingly spent a fortune on the Muslim alliance fighting to bring you down

Finmark was all I needed, it was a core component in my northern defences and I needed it back for that reason, nothing else.

Russia did come out weakened, its indefensible to say otherwise surely? I watched you burn rather badly for some time, it was only due to a strange twist of fate that you didnt burn to the ground. *my evil danish plans were thwarted*

 

[Swuul]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Fair enough, though "subtle" is perhaps too strong a word, since you pulled out of Russia almost immediately after the Muslim alliance intervened, partly on your behalf. (Okay, that was only my motive. The motives of the OE and Persia were rather more crass).

Err... though I had no intention to go to war against Russia. Ottomans had a peacuful border with Russia on the Caucasus and Ottomans had already taken Dobrudja and Bujak from Russia in the earlier war.

I was totally unprepared for the war aagainst Russia, but since you asked if I'd join, how could I possibly deny my help from the muslim alliance? I do not like to go to war before first negotiating, and the war against Russia had to be DOW'd so fast there was no possibilitiy to open negotiations first. There I was negotiating with Austria about buying Bujak (which Austria had conquered from Ottomans after Ottomans took it from Russia), I even asked Mughals that the war against Russia should be postponed until the deal with Austria was done. The Mughals answer was something like "We must DOW now that the Russian WE is high".

My total upreaperdness for the Russian war is also shown by the fact that during the battles in Russia my forces were on half pay. It was only after the disasters there I thought how I possibly can lose so bad with tech superiority and all. Stupidity hurts, big time.

However once in the war I said Ottomans would settle for Georgia. Perhaps this then is "more crass"...

 

[unmerged(10894)]

Lol I must be the slowest poster but nah...I was actually moving...

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
I just wish bocaj had been willing to act more in the spirit of the game or had noticed my messages (I suspect he managed to overlook about 2 years worth of messages trying to get his attention, since it is otherwise inconceivable to me how the attack could have caught him by surprise). I really just wanted to hand over some gold and have the three provinces returned. That would have made for a nice peaceful story-arc. That, however, was not to be the case.

And I would have accepted that too...

Perhaps it would have been better if you had of talked normally instead of every second phrase being "King of Kings". I was surveying my empire and I was a bit pre-occupied. I couldn't really spend 90% of my time looking at "King of Kings, ****, King of Kings,..."

That's why I said "Cut the bullshit...." Then you DoWed me before I could continue. What I was about to say was "Can you repeat properly, I was a bit pre-occupied".

Ah well...I've just gotta put that down to the worst game of my life and learn to word things a little differently next time. BTW that post was funny, even I laughed heaps. It's funny when you see what you do at midnight...

Anyway that was really out of date, but I still just want to say that...

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Bocaj

Perhaps it would have been better if you had of talked normally instead of every second phrase being "King of Kings". I was surveying my empire and I was a bit pre-occupied. I couldn't really spend 90% of my time looking at "King of Kings, ****, King of Kings,..."

That is how I usually talk in-game, bocaj. It is much more interesting to try to stay in character, rather than just to be some bland administrator who talks in game terms from the "You have it, I want it, I'll take it" school of conversation.

I will only occasionally leave the in-character play and talk behind - mostly when discussing BB points, because I have not really found any way to deal with them in-character - and I will always respond to it, but if you are not willing to negotiate in-character with me, you will always achieve a worse diplomatic result than if you did

(You are not the first to be frustrated by this)

PS: The way I talk is, of course , the proper way to talk when negotiating. The fact that a majority of players utilize a bland approach that conveys maximum information with minimal style is really their problem

 

[unmerged(8303)]

I love to see roleplay in EU2 MP. I much prefer your style Peter than to say something like "WTF are you talking about? I have level 3 forts and i'm 2 CRTs ahead of you! Besides in 3 years you get that bad event and your rr will be skyhigh"

no no no , keep that away from me please.

 

[Dawkins]

Bocaj if you are so rabidly anti role play why do you have those evil letters "RPG" scattered across your sig and location?

This was a terrific AAR guys, a great read indeed, particularly PE who as usual had me genuinely LOLing and Damocles who can always be guaranteed to add some high drama to proceedings

What I'd love to see next game is a Damocles France from the start and a PE Spain... I think you could sell that one on pay-per-view

 

[Damocles]

"You have it, I want it, I'll take it" school of conversation.

I believe that particular school of conversation has quite the university in Paris...

 

[Damocles]

BTW,

I would love to play a game with Peter as a neighbour. Not even because I'd like to war on him, or ally, just because he is so funny and brings a very amusing element to the game. I miss out on it because Peter is always in the boondocks (Mughal Empire, Persia, probably Tibet next) while I'm where all the action is.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Dawkins

What I'd love to see next game is a Damocles France from the start and a PE Spain... I think you could sell that one on pay-per-view

I am never going to play Spain again in MP, as I find all that colonisation dreadfully boring.

 

[Dawkins]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
I am never going to play Spain again in MP, as I find all that colonisation dreadfully boring.

Heh you missed a spot in Jaffna

Well country specifics aside, I do think it would be good to deliberately cram the most experienced players together as the main countries in Europe and let the less experienced ones muddle along on the peripheries. Anyway, I'm sure being surrounded by top players should put a cap on the mindless colonisation