• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

DSMyers1

Major
6 Badges
Apr 24, 2003
689
14
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
dragos03:
There has been much, much excellent work on Stefan cel Mare on the All Empires thread--Carpathian Wolf and Romano-Dacis both posted huge amounts of information about him. See here: Stefan on AllEmpires Thread

The only reason he is not even higher than #23 is a) the lack of skill of his opponents and b) some questions about the accuracy of some of the accounts... Review that link to see more.
 

DSMyers1

Major
6 Badges
Apr 24, 2003
689
14
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
Candidates for inclusion:

My list consists of about 220 generals right now, but there are a number that have been proposed that have not enough research done for me to place. If any one here has any ideas on where to place these, please post. Many of these candidates for the list are quite obscure, many with no significant English accounts of their work published... The couple that are well known, I haven't figured out where to place yet.

Do any of you have any more understanding on where these all should go?

Code:
Muqali the Jalair  		Mongol
Modu Shanyu (Maodun Chanyu) 	Xiongnu
Wei Qing 			China
Kül Tigin 			Turkic Kaganate
Su Dingfang 			China
Bohdan Khmelnytsky 		Cossack
Tuoba Gui (Daowu) 		China
Istämi Yabghu 			Göktürks
Guo Ziyi 			China
Christiaan de Wet 		Boer
Dwight D. Eisenhower 		United States
Zhou Yu 			China
Guo Kan 			Mongol
Abd al-Qadir 			Algeria
Koos de la Rey 			Boer
Piet Joubert 			Boer
Jan Smuts 			Boer
Ashina She'er 			China
Ahuitzotl 			Aztec
George Marshall 		United States
Huo Qubing 			China
Nur ad-Din 			Zengid
Lin Biao 			China
Josip Broz Tito 		Yugoslav
Vasily Chuikov 			Russia
Diocletian 			Rome
Zhuge Liang 			China
Ran Min 			China
Hou Junji 			China
Imam Shamil 			Caucasian
Yelu Abaoji (Taizu) 		Khitan
 

DSMyers1

Major
6 Badges
Apr 24, 2003
689
14
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
Top 100 Generals Version 8 Beta 1

Here is the Top 100 Generals, Version 8 Beta 1

I have formatted this for easier reading on these forums. I haven't updated this in several months... Rather busy these days.

Review the Top 100 Generals thread on All Empires (yes, 115 pages long) for most of the reasons why a certain general is ranked in a certain place. Over there you can search for a particular name within the thread...

This list goes to 200, so you can see who I have already placed and who isn't even on the list at all (my list only goes to about 220 and the last 20 are mostly pathetic). If you know a good general that is not on this list and not on the list of 30 candidates above, please propose him! Please, post all your comments on this (I have never complained about too much feedback!)

Code:
Rank	Name					Born	Died	Country/People
1	Temujin (Genghis Khan)			1167	1227	Mongol
2	Alexander the Great			356 BC	323 BC	Macedonia
3	Napoleon Bonaparte			1769	1821	France
4	Hannibal Barca				241 BC	183 BC	Carthage
5	Timur					1336	1405	Turks
6	Khalid ibn al-Walid			584	642	Arabs
7	Aleksandr Suvorov			1729	1800	Russia
8	Jan Žižka				1370	1424	Bohemia
9	Belisarius				505	565	Byzantines
10	John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough)	1650	1722	England
11	Subotai	1176					1248	Mongol
12	Gustav II Adolf				1594	1632	Sweden
13	Scipio Africanus the Older		237 BC	183 BC	Rome
14	Gaius Julius Caesar			100 BC	44 BC	Rome
15	Eugene of Savoy				1663	1736	Austria
16	Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne	1611	1675	France
17	Heraclius				575	641	Byzantines
18	Sir Arthur Wellesley (Wellington)	1769	1852	England
19	Frederick II of Prussia			1712	1786	Prussia
20	Maurice, comte de Saxe			1696	1750	France
21	Raimondo Montecuccoli			1608	1680	Austria
22	Philip II of Macedon			382 BC	336 BC	Macedonia
23	Stefan cel Mare (Stephen III)		1433	1504	Moldavia
24	Selim I	1470					1520	Ottomans
25	Gaius Marius				157 BC	86 BC	Rome
26	George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg)		1405	1468	Albania
27	Erich von Manstein			1887	1973	Germany
28	Nadir Shah				1688	1747	Persia
29	Robert Clive				1725	1774	England
30	Hán Xìn						196 BC	China
31	Gonzalo de Córdoba (El Gran Capitán)	1453	1515	Spain
32	Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke	1800	1891	Prussia
33	Shapur I					272	Persia
34	Chandragupta Maurya				298 BC	India
35	Maurice of Nassau			1567	1625	Netherlands
36	Heinz Wilhelm Guderian			1888	1954	Germany
37	Robert E. Lee				1807	1870	Confederate
38	Louis Nicholas Davout			1770	1823	France
39	Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Condé	1621	1686	France
40	Tiglath-Pileser III				727 BC	Assyria
41	Thutmose III					1540 BC	Egypt
42	Trần Hưng Đạo				1228	1300	Vietnam
43	Toyotomi Hideyoshi			1536	1598	Japan
44	Lucius Cornelius Sulla			138 BC 	78 BC	Rome
45	Yue Fei					1103	1142	China
46	Babur					1483	1530	Mughal
47	Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson		1824	1863	Confederate
48	Janos Hunyadi				1387	1456	Hungary
49	Duke of Parma (Alessandro Farnese)	1545	1592	Spain
50	Leo III the Isaurian			685	741	Byzantines
51	Hamilcar Barca				270 BC	228 BC	Carthage
52	Simeon I the Great			864	927	Bulgaria
53	Winfield Scott				1786	1866	United States
54	Nurhaci	1558					1626	Manchu
55	Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck		1870	1964	Germany
56	Charles XII				1682	1718	Sweden
57	Oda Nobunaga				1534	1582	Japan
58	Shivaji Bhosle				1627	1680	Maratha
59	Francesco I Sforza			1401	1466	Milan
60	Stanisław Koniecpolski			1590	1646	Poland
61	Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars		1653	1734	France
62	Louis Joseph de Bourbon, duc de Vendôme	1654	1712	France
63	Georgy Zhukov				1896	1974	Russia
64	Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus)	214	275	Rome
65	Epaminondas				418 BC	362 BC	Greece
66	Jan III Sobieski			1629	1696	Poland
67	Alp Arslan				1029	1072	Turks
68	Constantine I the Great			272	337	Rome
69	Murad IV				1612	1640	Ottomans
70	Baibars					1223	1277	Mamluke
71	'Amr ibn al-'As				583	664	Arabs
72	Emperor Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShìMín)	599	649	China
73	Sargon of Akkad					2215 BC	Akkad
74	Suleiman I				1494	1566	Ottomans
75	Shaka Zulu				1787	1828	Zulu
76	Charles Martel				688	741	Franks
77	François de Montmorency-Bouteville	1628	1695	France
78	Aleksandr Vasilevsky			1895	1977	Russia
79	Jebe						1225	Mongol
80	David						965 BC	Israel
81	Lautaro (toqui)					1557	Mapuche
82	Flavius Stilicho			359	408	Rome
83	André Masséna				1758	1817	France
84	Mahmud of Ghazni			971	1030	Ghazni
85	Ulysses Simpson Grant			1822	1885	United States
86	Carl Gustav Mannerheim			1867	1951	Finland
87	Uqba ibn Nafi				622	683	Arabs
88	Muhammad of Ghor			1162	1206	Ghorids
89	Gazi Evrenos					1417	Ottomans
90	Robert the Bruce			1274	1329	Scotland
91	Mustafa Kemal				1881	1938	Turkey
92	Albrecht Wallenstein			1583	1634	Austria
93	Takeda Shingen				1521	1573	Japan
94	James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose	1612	1650	Scotland
95	Pyotr Bagration				1765	1812	Russia
96	Ranjit Singh				1780	1839	Sikh
97	Samudragupta				335	380	India
98	Michael the Brave			1558	1601	Wallachia
99	Ahmad Shah Durrani			1723	1773	Afghan
100	Edmund Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby	1861	1936	England
101	William the Conqueror			1027	1087	Normandy
102	Erwin Rommel				1891	1944	Germany
103	Cao Cao					155	220	China
104	Henry V					1387	1422	England
105	Robert Guiscard				1015	1085	Normandy
106	Hernán Cortés				1485	1547	Spain
107	Baji Rao				1699	1740	Maratha
108	Oliver Cromwell				1599	1658	England
109	Nathan Bedford Forrest			1821	1877	Confederate
110	Sher Shah Suri				1472	1545	Afghan
111	Saladin 				1138	1193	Ayyubid
112	Gwanggaeto the Great			374	413	Gogoryeo
113	Yusuf ibn Tashfin			1061	1106	Almoravid
114	Wanyan Aguda				1068	1123	Jurchen
115	Nguyen Hue				1753	1792	Vietnam
116	Gerd von Rundstedt			1875	1953	Germany
117	William Joseph Slim			1891	1970	England
118	Edward, the Black Prince		1330	1376	England
119	Giuseppe Garibaldi			1807	1882	Italy
120	Alexander Nevsky			1220	1263	Russia
121	George Washington			1732	1799	United States
122	Cyrus the Great				590 BC	529 BC	Persia
123	Nikephoros II Phokas			912	969	Byzantines
124	Sonni Ali					1492	Songhai
125	Xu Da					1332	1385	China
126	Quintus Sertorius				72 BC	Rome
127	Eulji Mundeok					620	Korea
128	Bayinnaung					1581	Burma
129	Johan t'Serclaes, Count of Tilly	1559	1632	Austria
130	Gotthard Heinrici			1886	1971	Germany
131	Andreas Prokop (Prokop the Great)	1380	1434	Bohemia
132	Miklós Zrínyi				1620	1664	Croatia
133	Trajan					53	117	Rome
134	Li Jing					571	649	China
135	Joshua						1200 BC	Israel
136	Nathanael Greene			1742	1786	United States
137	Andrei Yeremenko			1892	1970	Russia
138	Vo Nguyen Giap				1912		Vietnam
139	Murong Ke					367	China
140	Jean Lannes				1769	1809	France
141	Xiang Yu				232 BC	202 BC	China
142	Pyrrhus of Epirus			312 BC	272 BC	Epirus
143	Harpagus					540 BC	Persia
144	Archduke Charles of Austria		1771	1847	Austria
145	Lucius Septimius Severus		146	211	Rome
146	Jan Karol Chodkiewicz			1560	1621	Poland
147	Joseph Radetzky von Radetz		1766	1858	Austria
148	Attila the Hun				406	453	Hun 
149	Ban Chao				32	102	China
150	Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (El Cid)		1040	1099	Castile
151	Basil II				958	1025	Byzantines
152	Suppiluliuma I					1322 BC	Hittite
153	Konstantin Rokossovsky			1896	1968	Russia
154	Sebastien Le prestre de Vauban		1633	1707	France
155	Rajaraja Chola I				1014	Chola
156	Stefan Uroš IV Dušan			1308	1355	Serbia
157	Sun Tzu					400 BC	330 BC	China
158	Marcus Claudius Marcellus		268 BC	208 BC	Rome
159	Charlemagne				742	814	Franks
160	George S. Patton			1885	1945	United States
161	Zhu Yuanzhang (Hongwu)			1328	1398	China
162	Mehmed II				1432	1481	Ottomans
163	Edward III				1312	1377	England
164	Alexios I Komnenos			1048	1118	Byzantines
165	Ernst Gideon Freiherr von Laudon	1717	1790	Austria
166	Muhammad Shaybani			1451	1510	Uzbek
167	Yelü Dashi					1144	Kara Khitai
168	Leonhard Graf von Blumenthal		1810	1900	Prussia
169	Pachacuti Inca Yupanqui				1471	Inca
170	James FitzJames, 1st Duke of Berwick	1670	1734	France
171	Arminius				18 BC	21	Germany
172	Bertrand du Guesclin			1320	1380	France
173	Erich Ludendorff			1865	1937	Germany
174	William T. Sherman			1820	1891	United States
175	Tokugawa Ieyasu				1543	1616	Japan
176	Scipio Africanus the Younger		185 BC	129 BC	Rome
177	Man Singh I 				1540	1614	Mughal
178	Jose de San Martin			1778	1850	Argentina
179	Ibrahim Pasha				1789	1848	Egypt
180	Jean-Baptiste Eugène Estienne		1860	1936	France
181	Muwatalli II					1272 BC	Hittite
182	Sun Bin						316 BC	China
183	Tomoyuki Yamashita			1885	1946	Japan
184	Chormaqan					1241	Mongol
185	Kujula Kadphises				80	Kushan
186	Vladimir II Monomakh			1053	1125	Kiev
187	John Moore				1761	1809	England
188	Baron Ernst Gideon von Laudon		1717	1790	Austria
189	Bairam Khan					1561	Mughal
190	Richard I				1157	1199	England
191	Piye						721 BC	Kush
192	Ivan III Vasilevich 			1440	1505	Russia
193	Judar Pasha					1600	Morocco
194	Naresuan				1555	1605	Ayutthaya
195	Louis William, Margrave of Baden-Baden	1655	1707	Austria
196	Mukhali						1223	Mongol
197	Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo				67	Rome
198	Jai Singh II 				1688	1743	Jaipur
199	Quizquiz					1534	Inca
200	Kangxi					1654	1722	China
 

Myth

Strategy Cognoscenti
33 Badges
Jul 8, 2005
7.277
7
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • 500k Club
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
I'd say Chuikov is a very mixed leader. Ruthless, of course, which was quite necessary for Soviet generals but skill-wise mediocre. He could stand and fight, as at Stalingrad, but when he was on the offensive he may have been out of his depth. During the battle for the city of Poznan he made exactly the same sort of mistakes and operated in exactly the same way as the Germans had done in Stalingrad, which wasn't terribly clever. It's quite possible that the only reason he won there was because of his incredible superiority in numbers and because Poznan was a much smaller city than Stalingrad.

As for Eisenhower, he never really got a chance to actually command units in action. The closest he got to that was during the 1934 Louisiana maneuvers when he was Blue's chief of staff (all this IIRC). The Germans did, however, consider him an expert on armored warfare and he was, of course, irrepleaceable as SHAEF. As a strategist he was successful, as of course his strategy worked, though there isn't any agreement on whether it was the optimal strategy for beating the Germans. IMHO it was since it pitted Allied strengths against German weaknesses, which is exactly what strategy should do. It was bloody, but safe, and no one ever pretended that it would be easy to beat Germany.

Marshall was even further away from the action than Eisenhower was, and had less direct influence upon it on a daily or even weekly basis. His main tasks were to hammer out a strategy with his British compatriots, which was eventually done despite loggerheads on both sides of the table, and to organize the USA's worldwide war effort. He really wasn't tested as a general at all, but just an administrator really.

I'd say that, despite how necessary Marshall and Eisenhower were to the Allied cause, they don't really fit in the top 220 generals list, though Eisenhower had a better potential claim than Marshall. Chuikov doesn't either, but that's just because he was mediocre.
 

The Swert

Yours Swertically
44 Badges
Jan 28, 2007
1.618
29
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
I've lost all interest in this list so long as Charlemagne remains at #159 when he was originally #68. I've looked at the discussion for him on allempires and all they say it that Charles Martel was better as he set his empire up. Whilst that is true it completely ignores his own successes. He deserves a top 150 spot even if you can't fit him in the top 100.
 

Myth

Strategy Cognoscenti
33 Badges
Jul 8, 2005
7.277
7
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • 500k Club
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
That seems like a very counter-intuitive way of going about taking an interest in this project. If you don't like the fact that Charlemagne is at 159, why not argue his case rather than abandoning any interest? :wacko:

The way you've made that post, it's like you're trying to blackmail DSMyers :p
 

unmerged(48426)

Second Lieutenant
Sep 8, 2005
195
0
dragos03:
There has been much, much excellent work on Stefan cel Mare on the All Empires thread--Carpathian Wolf and Romano-Dacis both posted huge amounts of information about him. See here: Stefan on AllEmpires Thread

The only reason he is not even higher than #23 is a) the lack of skill of his opponents and b) some questions about the accuracy of some of the accounts... Review that link to see more.

Well, #23 in the ranking is pretty good for a leader from a small country, largey unknown to most ppl. I only wrote more about him in an attempt to start a discussion about the lesser-known leaders in the top.

I don't know about the lack of skill of his opponents. After all, they include Mehmed II (the conqueror of Constantinople), Matthias Corvinus (one of the greatest Hungarian kings), etc.

Sadly, that link doesn't work.
 

Swamp Rat

Apprentice Antiquarian
34 Badges
Jun 15, 2006
1.950
5
  • Age of Wonders III
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • 200k Club
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
DSMyers said:
If you know a good general that is not on this list and not on the list of 30 candidates above, please propose him! Please, post all your comments on this (I have never complained about too much feedback!)

What about Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa? I must confess to have limited knowledge in the field of military history so its a bit difficult for me to compare the generals effectively, but doesnt he belong in the top 200 list at least?
 

The Swert

Yours Swertically
44 Badges
Jan 28, 2007
1.618
29
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
That seems like a very counter-intuitive way of going about taking an interest in this project. If you don't like the fact that Charlemagne is at 159, why not argue his case rather than abandoning any interest? :wacko:

Last time I tried he dropped 50 spots. :(
 

DSMyers1

Major
6 Badges
Apr 24, 2003
689
14
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
I've lost all interest in this list so long as Charlemagne remains at #159 when he was originally #68. I've looked at the discussion for him on allempires and all they say it that Charles Martel was better as he set his empire up. Whilst that is true it completely ignores his own successes. He deserves a top 150 spot even if you can't fit him in the top 100.

The reason I don't place him highly is 1) Charlemagne never fought any opponent (general) worth anything 2) He was primarily building upon Charles Martel's systems 3) He always had superiority of force (quality, if not quantity), again due to predecessors and his own leadership (as opposed to generalship) capacity 4) he did have a few failures, like in Spain...

He was a great leader, and is on my great leaders list. He held together and brought to its apex an empire. Was it because he was a great general? No.

Those are my thoughts on Charlemagne.
 

w_mullender

Human Rights Advisor of Atilla
7 Badges
Apr 11, 2001
2.149
4
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
The reason I don't place him highly is 1) Charlemagne never fought any opponent (general) worth anything
That may have a little to do with him crushing them. And btw it is bs. He had to deal with a lot.
2) He was primarily building upon Charles Martel's systems
Sure and...?
3) He always had superiority of force (quality, if not quantity), again due to predecessors and his own leadership (as opposed to generalship) capacity
He didnt. He gained the advantages due to his ability, it wasnt presented to him.
4) he did have a few failures, like in Spain...
Purely propaganda:D
He was a great leader, and is on my great leaders list. He held together and brought to its apex an empire. Was it because he was a great general? No.

Those are my thoughts on Charlemagne.
Lousy generals dont make emperors.
 

unmerged(124447)

Sergeant
3 Badges
Nov 14, 2008
57
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I don't know much about him, but Charlemagne managed to nearly unite Europe and start the process of dragging it out of the Dark Ages. I think also won a lot of military victories, several of them against great odds. I would say that he should be somewhere between #20 and #50. However, I really don't know that much about him, so this is all just IMHO.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(90544)

Private
1 Badges
Jan 7, 2008
16
0
  • Europa Universalis III
Why isn't Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette on the list? Or at least where is he ranked after 100 (if at all)? I'd say he was excessively good in leadership and overall tactical skill.

Given whom he had to take on and the repeated success at keeping his forces on the field and forcing Cornwallis to have to pull back to Yorktown due to rapidly dwindling supplies due to his repeated harrying, I would think he'd warrant a top 75 spot, if not Top 80 or 90 at the least.

Not to mention ho he was always at the front of the lines rallying the troops, and prevented what would have been total routs at Brandywine and Monmouth courthouse through his quick actions.

Given that Sullivan and Charles Lee were incompetent at best in following through with battleplans, and more cowardly than the average general, Lafayette having to fix repeated blunders of theirs to the point where British forces in the Battle of Barren Hill were completely held to a standstill, greatly overestimating the amount of forces at the position, retreated with nearly any casualties while heavily bloodying any British troops in the vicinity from rapid hit and run volleys. I think his repeated successful maneuvers in the Carolinas and Yorktown campaign which kept Cornwallis off balance and his cutting off of a Northern escape route causing him to have to retire to Yorktown.

I think he was of a caliber that exceeded at the very least Mustafa Kemal, Martel, Shaka and Murad as well... Also, why is Murad IV so high in the listing and yet Cardinal Infante Fernado or Ferdinand III are not listed at all? I think given that Murad may have been an excellent statesman, and had capable commanders, but when he led the Army in Mesopotamia in 1638-1639 Bagdahd had already been retaken and the Persians had pretty much withdrawn all of their forces to the east of the Shat-el-Arab and Tigris river.

Both Cardinal Infante and Ferdinand were key in the Major Catholic victory at Nordlingen as well as Infante playing a role in driving the Dutch back out of what makes up Belgium today, while Ferdinand loosened the griplock on HRE nations by allowing them more freedom in choice of how to conduct foreign relations with others as well as agreed both on paper in the Peace of Westphalia as well as personal convictions that Christian states should be allowed to engage in Cuius regio, eius religio.

That's my personal take on this at least.
 

w_mullender

Human Rights Advisor of Atilla
7 Badges
Apr 11, 2001
2.149
4
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
I think he was of a caliber that exceeded at the very least Mustafa Kemal, Martel, Shaka and Murad as well... Also, why is Murad IV so high in the listing and yet Cardinal Infante Fernado or Ferdinand III are not listed at all? I think given that Murad may have been an excellent statesman, and had capable commanders, but when he led the Army in Mesopotamia in 1638-1639 Bagdahd had already been retaken and the Persians had pretty much withdrawn all of their forces to the east of the Shat-el-Arab and Tigris river.

Both Cardinal Infante and Ferdinand were key in the Major Catholic victory at Nordlingen as well as Infante playing a role in driving the Dutch back out of what makes up Belgium today, while Ferdinand loosened the griplock on HRE nations by allowing them more freedom in choice of how to conduct foreign relations with others as well as agreed both on paper in the Peace of Westphalia as well as personal convictions that Christian states should be allowed to engage in Cuius regio, eius religio.

That's my personal take on this at least.
What did she do then? Decent rulers no doubt, but militarily speaking they did nothing of interest. As a matter of fact it was under their rule that current Belgium turned into Europe's battleground of choice.
 

MihaiROU

Baron of clicking stuff
39 Badges
Nov 7, 2008
222
57
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Diplomacy
  • Rome Gold
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Knights of Honor
  • Magicka
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Cities in Motion
  • 500k Club
Without further ado, here is the list:

Ranking Name
1 Alexander the Great
2 Napoleon Bonaparte
3 Temujin (Genghis Khan)
4 Hannibal Barca
5 Frederick II of Prussia
6 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough)
7 Belisarios
8 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne
9 Gustav II Adolf
10 Caius Julius Caesar
.....
33 George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg)
.....
49 Janos Hunyadi
.....

So you put these anti-ottoman fighters in top 100 but the top anti-ottoman fighters in the Balkans(maybe Europe)don't have a representative in this top(even if Hunyadi can be considered a "bloodline representative")...let me give you a hint(and show only 1 battle per man,of course they win each one):

Stephen III of Moldavia->The Battle of Vaslui: The Ottoman troops numbered up to 120,000, facing about 40,000 Moldavian troops, plus smaller numbers of allied and mercenary troops

Michael the Brave->Battle of Călugăreni: 70-180,000 ottoman troops vs aprox. 10,000 walachians

Mircea I of Wallachia->Battle of Rovine: aprox. 40,000 ottomans& 8000 serbs vs. aprox. 10,000 walachians

these are the most known as are but 1 battle per each character,without trying to be too modest I think Hunyadi and Skanderbeg(and many many more in top 100) didn't have their battles or their victories and if battles and victories don't make a general then what does? :p

AS a particularity Stephen III of Stephen the Great also built a monastery after each victory against the ottomans,he built 44 in total :p
 
Last edited:

unmerged(59077)

Tzar of all the Soviets
Jul 17, 2006
5.575
8
Category 3: Napoleon won basically all of his campaigns, except for the Russian one and the last two, both of which faced him with overwhelming odds (even for him).

As much as I am a Napoleon fan, he SEVERELY outnumbered the Russians and had most of Europe at his back. By no means at all is that overwhelming odds AGAINST him.

It was a tremendous strategic disaster and much of the blame lies square on him. I'd certainly rank him below both Temujin and Alexander, and perhaps even below Suvorov (but I wouldn't really, not that last one, since Napoleon's opposing commanders tended to be of better reputation than Suvorov's).
 

DSMyers1

Major
6 Badges
Apr 24, 2003
689
14
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
Without further ado, here is the list:

Ranking Name
1 Alexander the Great
2 Napoleon Bonaparte
3 Temujin (Genghis Khan)
4 Hannibal Barca
5 Frederick II of Prussia
6 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough)
7 Belisarios
8 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne
9 Gustav II Adolf
10 Caius Julius Caesar
.....
33 George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg)
.....
49 Janos Hunyadi
.....

So you put these anti-ottoman fighters in top 100 but the top anti-ottoman fighters in the Balkans(maybe Europe)don't have a representative in this top(even if Hunyadi can be considered a "bloodline representative")...let me give you a hint(and show only 1 battle per man,of course they win each one):

Stephen III of Moldavia->The Battle of Vaslui: The Ottoman troops numbered up to 120,000, facing about 40,000 Moldavian troops, plus smaller numbers of allied and mercenary troops

Michael the Brave->Battle of Călugăreni: 70-180,000 ottoman troops vs aprox. 10,000 walachians

Mircea I of Wallachia->Battle of Rovine: aprox. 40,000 ottomans& 8000 serbs vs. aprox. 10,000 walachians

these are the most known as are but 1 battle per each character,without trying to be too modest I think Hunyadi and Skanderbeg(and many many more in top 100) didn't have their battles or their victories and if battles and victories don't make a general then what does? :p

AS a particularity Stephen III of Stephen the Great also built a monastery after each victory against the ottomans,he built 44 in total :p

You didn't read down to the latest version. I have corrected most of the oversights!

Rank Name
1 Temujin (Genghis Khan)
2 Alexander the Great
3 Napoleon Bonaparte
4 Hannibal Barca
5 Timur
6 Khalid ibn al-Walid
7 Aleksandr Suvorov
8 Jan Žižka
9 Belisarius
10 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough)
11 Subotai
12 Gustav II Adolf
13 Scipio Africanus the Older
14 Gaius Julius Caesar
15 Eugene of Savoy
16 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne
17 Heraclius
18 Sir Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington)
19 Frederick II of Prussia
20 Maurice, comte de Saxe
21 Raimondo Montecuccoli
22 Philip II of Macedon
23 Stefan cel Mare (Stephen III)
24 Selim I
25 Gaius Marius
26 George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg)
27 Erich von Manstein
28 Nadir Shah
29 Robert Clive
30 Hán Xìn
31 Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba (El Gran Capitán)
32 Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke
33 Shapur I
34 Chandragupta Maurya
35 Maurice of Nassau
36 Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
37 Robert E. Lee
38 Louis Nicholas Davout
39 Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Condé
40 Tiglath-Pileser III
41 Thutmose III
42 Trần Hưng Đạo
43 Toyotomi Hideyoshi
44 Lucius Cornelius Sulla
45 Yue Fei
46 Babur
47 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson
48 Janos Hunyadi
49 Duke of Parma (Alessandro Farnese)
50 Leo III the Isaurian
51 Hamilcar Barca
52 Simeon I the Great
53 Winfield Scott
54 Nurhaci
55 Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck
56 Charles XII
57 Oda Nobunaga
58 Shivaji Bhosle
59 Francesco I Sforza
60 Stanisław Koniecpolski
61 Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars
62 Louis Joseph de Bourbon, duc de Vendôme
63 Georgy Zhukov
64 Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus)
65 Epaminondas
66 Jan III Sobieski
67 Alp Arslan
68 Constantine I the Great
69 Murad IV
70 Baibars
71 'Amr ibn al-'As
72 Emperor Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShìMín)
73 Sargon of Akkad
74 Suleiman I
75 Shaka Zulu
76 Charles Martel
77 François Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg)
78 Aleksandr Vasilevsky
79 Jebe
80 David
81 Lautaro (toqui)
82 Flavius Stilicho
83 André Masséna
84 Mahmud of Ghazni
85 Ulysses Simpson Grant
86 Carl Gustav Mannerheim
87 Uqba ibn Nafi
88 Muhammad of Ghor
89 Gazi Evrenos
90 Robert the Bruce
91 Mustafa Kemal
92 Albrecht Wallenstein
93 Takeda Shingen
94 James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
95 Pyotr Bagration
96 Ranjit Singh
97 Samudragupta
98 Michael the Brave
99 Ahmad Shah Durrani
100 Edmund Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby

I didn't put in Mircea, though... I can't remember the reasoning at the moment.
 

DSMyers1

Major
6 Badges
Apr 24, 2003
689
14
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
What about Edward, The Black Prince?

#118 at the moment.

Marquis de Lafayette

I don't think he had a long enough record against significant enough foes. No generals from the Revolutionary war are on the list at this point, not even Nathaniel Greene, who was better than Lafayette in my opinion.
 

Swamp Rat

Apprentice Antiquarian
34 Badges
Jun 15, 2006
1.950
5
  • Age of Wonders III
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • 200k Club
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
#118 at the moment.



I don't think he had a long enough record against significant enough foes. No generals from the Revolutionary war are on the list at this point, not even Nathaniel Greene, who was better than Lafayette in my opinion.

And Agrippa?