The Three Mountains UNLOCKED!!!!!

[Duruial]

An interesting analogy to steam achievements is perhaps sports medals and trophies. It's a shiny thing you stick on a shelf (or steam profile). However, it is the process of obtaining of the medal people admire. The recognition, be it medal or steam achievement, is a nice token of recognition, but implied in the recognition is the idea that the token is a reward for a difficult task done.

A fair point, and a good analogy.

But, inherent in the argument is that the token itself is without value on its own, rather it its the task that has the value and it is admired, and the steam achievement is just a trophy on a mantle. If that is the case, should the original challenge have been 'I want you to conquer the world with Ryuku' rather than 'I want you to get the Three Mountains Achievement. The interpretation is left up to the user, as the values of the challenger are not in the difficult task, but rather they are in the icon.

Clearly, the original poster's world view is responsible for the confusion, as it did not place the recognition on the difficult task, but rather it implied that the recognition was for the icon. As such he must pay his debt.

 

[cpm4001]

If you bothered actually reading that you'd see him explain exactly how he cheated and how much he cheated.

I have read that AAR, and it's not really cheating in the sense that's being discussed in this thread. Yes, DDRJake used a lot of cheese (and has used even more cheese in more recent World Conquests), and while you may well consider that cheating, the fact remains he didn't use a Steam achievement unlocker to get the achievement. That means that even if he used gamey tactics to grab The Three Mountains, he still actually conquered the world as Ryukyu, and so in my eyes at least actually deserves the "prestige" of having the achievement.

 

[renny55]

He got the achievement. Hell, maybe he thought the whole idea was just to get it for the bling who cares how, and didn't even think the OP would care if it was done legit or not until he realized that his free game was on the line if he cheated.

I know if 13 year old me was given the same bet, I'd demand payment either way!

He is very aware that he was supposed to do it fair and square.

 

[renny55]

Cheating is a very abstract concept. He might have cheated at the game, but does not necessarily translate to him having cheated at the bet. If he got the achievement, and the means for getting the achievement were not laid out, then he did not actually cheat at the bet. You should be a person of your word and pay up.

He's so aware that he cheated and he did wrong, that he is trying to cover all his tracks.

 

[clockworkBabbag]

He told he was unable to do screenshots because his computer freezes.

Ask for his save file. There's not much reason to delete that, especially if you have a bet going that could require proof. 12 hours seems absurd for a normal WC, much less Ryukyu.

 

[Osman Pasha]

It takes weeks for someone like DDRJake to get that achievement in 1.7...so no its not that possible.

 

[renny55]

The Outcome.

So I confronted my 13 year old friend today.

He knew that the bet was to conquer the whole world as Ryukyu to get the achievement. THAT was the bet, crystal clear. I even explain briefly the game mechanics and where Okinawa is located. So, getting the achievement, per se was not the point of the bet, but conquer the world as Ryukyu AND getting the Achievement. Therefore, he cheated and this are the proofs:

1.- No screenshots of the game, but one at the beginning.
Excuse: His computer freezes when he tried to do screenshots because overheating
Refutation: His computer can easily handle games like Tomb Raider.

2.- The Achievements were granted at the same hour (November 15 12:45) Incluiding, conquer the world and conquer 200 provinces.
Excuse: 1.- Steam jammed and the achievements were granted at the end of the session. 2.- Then he changed it for when a game is borrowed in Steam the achievements are granted at the end of the session.
Refutation: He played other games of my library and the achievements of those games were granted a different hours during the session.

3.- The Next day he got achievements that required different campaings. Like all the cores of France, Conquer Africa as Kongo, Conquer China and Persia as the Golden Horde, all that in a day.
Excuse: None.

4.- The Time. The whole world in 12 hours... the fuck?
Excuse: He's god damn intelligent.
Refutation: He's good, but not that good. He had shown that some game mechanics weren't understood by him.

5.- Unable to provide the Saved File.
Excuse: He erased it.
Refutation: I god a hold of a copy of the file. He only played to March 1445, he didn't conquer anything. Could be the wrong file but it was the only one on his computer, or he actually erased the other one and this one is just practice. But it's uncertain why would he erase his only proof.

6.- If he is telling the truth, it will take a lot of faith in him.
Excuse: He never lied before, he is my favorite and he is awesome.
Refutation: I don't think I have enough faith in him. I mean, the proofs of his lies are overwhelming.

Apparently he lied. What really bothers me is that he is giving excuse after excuse. And each one is dumber and harder to believe than before. If he wants to make a fool of me, it means he does not respect me. If he does not respect me is that he does not have care for our relationship.
I know I am talking of a 13 year old kid, but again, he is a very intelligent and mature kid. He is, by far, first of his class. Maths are easy for him, also comprehension of difficult texts. He is really smart. The hold point of this thread was to make sure, because I truly want to believe him, but I knew it was near impossible to acomplish that in just 12 hours; but I wanted to asked, to check, perhaps it was possible. But it isn't. So, he had disappointed me so much. And I definitely feel disrespected.

To make things worse this little guy is not only my friend but he is also my student. I am his English and History teacher. It is supposed not to have bets between students and teacher, but no one really cares about those small infranctions. But I am supposed to help educate this kid and, at this situation, I am not sure how to do it.

How do I teach him that cheating in a competition is wrong? and even worse, to cheat on a friend is even worse?

How the fuck would I know, I would get myself into this predicament just because one small bet. Geezus.

 

[Junuxx]

If he wants to make a fool of me, it means he does not respect me

How about the other way around. He tried to impress you because he wants your respect, but made a fool of himself now that you found out about his cheating, and it's too embarrassing to admit.

I mean, I can see your point of view but at least give him some slack regarding his motivations. It seems unlikely that he intended to insult or disrespect you.

 

[RobRoy3]

How do I teach him that cheating in a competition is wrong? and even worse, to cheat on a friend is even worse?

You can try to teach. You can't ensure he'll learn. And you can't expect a 13 year old to behave with the maturity and integrity that is still lacking in many adults.

I think you're making too big a deal out of this. And, in turn, it's scaring the 13 year old, who is, naturally, getting defensive and trying to cover his tracks. We live in a world of relative morality, and the response to getting caught is generally: deny, deny, deny...regardless of the evidence. Clearly he's learned that, at least.

Stop making this a test of his character and intelligence all rolled into one. Just back off and put the ball back in his court, then drop it. As funshine said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence .

Just say something like "I'm eager to see a demonstration of your accomplishment, surely you have something? Or can do it, again?". "Obviously, a Steam icon is insufficient and isn't really evidence of anything". "Cutting the Gordian knot might be clever in some ways, and Alexander is certainly admirable company, but he didn't really accomplish the intended task. Did you?"

...it's too embarrassing to admit.

Yeah. Again... 13

 

[artemis667]

How about the other way around. He tried to impress you because he wants your respect, but made a fool of himself now that you found out about his cheating, and it's too embarrassing to admit.

Pretty much this.

TBH we obsess too much about success and perfection, to the point of absurdity. Honesty not so much, and honor? Forget about it. And no doubt he is smart, but that doesn't mean he really understands just how complex Paradox games actually are - most people have no idea. He probably thought that the achievement could plausibly be done in 12 hours, and that you would believe he did it, and be proud of him. Whereas he would have got far more out of a serious engagement with the game, an exploration of the game mechanics, the maths, and immersing himself in the history. But did he know that?

You also have to note that the prevailing spirit of the age is that it's OK to do what's wrong, as long as you convince yourself that you're not hurting anyone, and you can get away with it. I'm not going to go into details, for fear of taking this way off topic, but morality is a very hard thing to install in people who see absolutely no reason for it. It's this way in Australia, and I presume wherever you are as well. How do you try? You can set your own good example through your actions and words, and you can make it clear what your expectations are, but that's as much as anyone can do.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Cut the kid some slack. He obviously cheated, there's absolutely no doubt that he did.

But he's 13. Tell him that if he wants the reward, he has to win the bet fair and square, and leave it there. Maybe throw in a light-hearted comment about how it's harder than that to trick you, and buy him a cheaper game for the effort he put into cheating.

Don't take it seriously, I mean, most/all of us were idiots at 13.

 

[highsis]

The Outcome.

So I confronted my 13 year old friend today.

Intelligence =/= maturity.

Grade =/= intelligence

The guy sounds like, and most likely is, a jerk. I would never consider someone who lied to me to take advantage of me as a friend. At least he doesn't consider you as a friend because he wouldn't have scammed you if he did.

The guy also sounds like, and most likely is, a dumb fool. He tried to scam you without trying to cover his tracks, and when a suspicion arose, he failed to understand that it is better to come clean in such circumstances.



If I were you, I would give him a reproof, give him the middle finger, and call it the end of our relationship; I hate stupid kids who utterly lacks respect and appreciation in friendship.

But then he is only 13. I believe you can deal with this in a more appropriate manner than what I've suggested. Me? I never lied nor thought of scamming my friends when I was 13 or younger; I liked gifting friends games I enjoyed. I don't think his age is an excuse for his deceit. It was utterly disrespectful.

 

[zodium]

How do I teach him that cheating in a competition is wrong? and even worse, to cheat on a friend is even worse?

How the fuck would I know, I would get myself into this predicament just because one small bet. Geezus.

Because you're trying to be friends with your student? Let's be real clear about this: you cannot be friends with someone when the power differential is as large as it is between student and teacher. Full stop. You can think you're friends, but to him, you're an authority figure, and that's all you'll ever be (even after he's done with your classes in particular) until he leaves school. Then, maybe? But, still, probably not. You can't be friends with a student any more than you can be friends with a butler. Friendly, yes, but not friends.

That is why you are not supposed to have even trivial bets with students--there is an intrinsic power differential in the student-teacher relationship with which bets interfere. You can teach him that cheating your friends is wrong by not acting like his friend anymore. Which you should do, because this is probably the only chance you have to undo the damage you've done to that poor kid's relation to authorities.

 

[anrickme]

I have almost 900 hours on eu4 and I tell you that it is impossible to do this in 12 hours without cheating, only if you had a planning of multiple days and the knowledge of the game features and exploits to be able to do this in one campaign. Getting this achievement, even using the all possible exploits takes a bunch of your time away so on any version after 1.4 you would be around years 1750-1821 when getting it. Doing campaign till year 1750 takes a bunch of time but you can do it in 12 hours if you have good computer that properly operates the maximum speed the game can give you and don't have any real life breaks.

You should think once before posting these things, not twice cause you didn't think even the first time cause how couldn't he have cheated?

 

[hajutze]

Meh cheating in a competition is only wrong when they get you.

 

[Demusch]

No, it's not. Bugs are mostly objective, crystal clear and eventually get recognized by the game creators and get patched as a result. Whether they are changeable or static is completely irrelevant. Bug abuse is cheating, there's no grey area there at all.

Not true. Bug exploiting is using existing unintended mechanics in the game. Cheating is introducing new mechanics, or changing parameters, from a different layer into the game.
Farming money with mission rotations or forming the Minghals can be seen as an exploit. Using the console to give yourself provinces, MP etc., or using an external program to give yourself certain achievements is cheating.
The only point for debate here is whether stuff like the "kill king/heir" command being available in ironman in 1.8.0, but I'd argue that's pretty obviously a cheat as well, since you're no longer using inherent game mechanics.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

So you have the answer, not legit achievement.

 

[Hakuromatsu]

I have read that AAR, and it's not really cheating in the sense that's being discussed in this thread. Yes, DDRJake used a lot of cheese (and has used even more cheese in more recent World Conquests), and while you may well consider that cheating, the fact remains he didn't use a Steam achievement unlocker to get the achievement. That means that even if he used gamey tactics to grab The Three Mountains, he still actually conquered the world as Ryukyu, and so in my eyes at least actually deserves the "prestige" of having the achievement.

Yeah, Jake is most certainly not a cheater, especially in his mindset -- DDRJake and others like him are very clearly Johnnies, while Steam achievement cheaters are very clearly Spikes. It's a completely different mindset.

 

[tapewormlondon]

Man seriously, how does a 13 year old hacking the game to get an achievement get to 5 pages!

It doesnt matter. Honestly, in the grand scheme of life this isnt really something to get upset about.

Yesterday due to a bug (I assume) I got the achievement for "having 100 provinces at no Autonomy and no Unrest", despite not having 100 provinces, and half with autonomy. Does that bother people?

 

[Panzerschiffe]

Man seriously, how does a 13 year old hacking the game to get an achievement get to 5 pages!

It doesnt matter. Honestly, in the grand scheme of life this isnt really something to get upset about.

Yesterday due to a bug (I assume) I got the achievement for "having 100 provinces at no Autonomy and no Unrest", despite not having 100 provinces, and half with autonomy. Does that bother people?

You're obviously trying to distract us from debating this "bet with the 13 year old kid" issue.

Don't fall for his trap!