The Terra incognita

[mic-dk]

The following is only personal oponion and should not be construed as being indicative of what will or won't be included in EU3

I would be most curious to see what the date would be on the earliest accurate map you can find of the African interior, far northern Asia, the Himilayas, or some parts of the SouthAmerican interior and Australian outback. (The PTI regions of EU2). I have -- on and off -- gone looking for such things and in most cases have been unable to find anything that reliably dates earlier than the mid 19th century. The majority are barely a hundred years old, and a few had to wait until satelite mapping could supply the details. Heck...they had better maps of the near side of the moon prior to 1800 than they had of parts of the Earth.

Right on. I've just finished reading the travel accounts of Mungo Park, who made two, quite ill-fated, expeditions into west-africa. This was in 1795-1799 and 1805-1806. Anything much beyond the Niger river was really a unknown at the time.

To return on to the original topic, I quite fancy dragons and krakens on PTI

 

[unmerged(11600)]

Here's a suggestion: include provinces in PTI, but it takes 340 years of movement to enter them. That way, if you start the game right on the border, by the time the game ends you'll be on the verge of discovering one of those PTI provinces! That way everyone is happy.

-Pat

 

[Tunch Khan]

Right on. I've just finished reading the travel accounts of Mungo Park, who made two, quite ill-fated, expeditions into west-africa. This was in 1795-1799 and 1805-1806. Anything much beyond the Niger river was really a unknown at the time.

To return on to the original topic, I quite fancy dragons and krakens on PTI

Isecondthat! Here be dragons!

 

[unmerged(37697)]

Isecondthat! Here be dragons!

Definitely! And giant sea creatures that eat ships

 

[Tunch Khan]

Definitely! And giant sea creatures that eat ships

 

[unmerged(9145)]

Smashing idea! They should probably also model the sea floor in the off chance that modders want to alter the sea level. And it goes without saying that they map the moon and the non-gaseous plantes in the solar system because modders might want to do something with that as well.

The attempt at condescension doesn't come off as artful, but ridiculous - in a teen-boy fan-worship sort of way. I'd say I'd expect better of someone who's a moderator, but heck - who am I kidding?

Do you have even the slightest idea how long it takes to do stuff like that? Why would Paradox have one of their artists devote 1-2 weeks of full time work to model something that is never intended for use in the game? :wacko:

Why, yes I do. I was a programmer for tweny years. I do have a weeee bit of experience in this regard. Silly me for thinking that I know myself and my own skillset better than our resident psychic.

Since I'm the CUSTOMER who happens to be PAYING for the product, putting forward an idea that I'd like to see included to the people MAKING THE GAME (which wouldn't be you, Mr. T) is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Whether they decide to run with it or not isn't up to me.

But then, it isn't up to you either.

L'Afrique is correct. If you want PTI gone, get rid of it yourself.

Yada yada yada. "If you want this done, do it yourself". Nice attitude, that. It's a good thing the boys at Paradox calling the shots don't hold this attitude towards their customers. But if they had, there'd never have been an EU 2, much less than EU 3.

Max

 

[unmerged(52192)]

that pacific map is pants. i can't tell what's what at all. :wacko:

 

[unmerged(37697)]

Since I'm the CUSTOMER who happens to be PAYING for the product, putting forward an idea that I'd like to see included to the people MAKING THE GAME (which wouldn't be you, Mr. T) is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Whether they decide to run with it or not isn't up to me.

Yada yada yada. "If you want this done, do it yourself". Nice attitude, that. It's a good thing the boys at Paradox calling the shots don't hold this attitude towards their customers. But if they had, there'd never have been an EU 2, much less than EU 3.

I have to agree with you wholeheartedly here. The overall impression we get is indeed that of "If you want this done, do it yourself." There have been no end of (positive) suggestions put forward, which I believe could have been implemented relatively easily and to the absolute benefit of both the game and the Paradox gaming community.

Nevertheless, the inevitable I told you so is no doubt en route. I will definitely purchase & play EUIII, but it will almost definitely be released as a rushed - and therefore, subpar - product. As I said in an earlier post, if we're in the alpha stage in September, how can we ship a finished, bug-free title circa January?

Deadlines are one thing, but having the EUII concept of no end of bugfixes to actually enable an almost unplayable game (out of the box) is absurd. Unfortunately, and I do stress unfortunately, I can see this being the case given the current timeframe, and so on.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

* Having no PTI would be contrary to the vision that the Great Maker has for the game (as I know it, at least).
* The Great Maker, in his digital wisdom, has decided to make the game very moddable for those who don't share His vision.
* It will be relatively easy to modify the map. I wouldn't be surprised if there will be a "no PTI" mod out only a few days after the "Byzantium mod" (i.e. a few days after the release of the game).

Having no PTI would present serious issues in regards to game balance and historical realism. It should, therefore, not be included in the "basic" game (the gains for the developers would be marginal while the cost in terms of money, time and effort would increase more than marginally). It is good, though, that those who want to play with a no-PTI map can create one; it's not like it will be some sort of rocket science (unlike map modding in EU2 et.c.), and if there really is a demand for such a map then there will surely be many who would like to do their part in bringing it to fruitition.

 

[L'Afrique]

...our resident psychic...
...people MAKING THE GAME (which wouldn't be you, Mr. T) is a perfectly reasonable thing to do...
Max

You seem to have missed the fact that Mr. T, is, in fact, a member of the Paradox team. I'm not sure how important he is, what with his title and all, but he is a member all the same. Thus, you should really accept his reasoning.


And, to restate, there is no reason for Paradox to include provinces all over the map. These areas were never explored in the time period, and furthermore, nobody in the period even had the capability to properly explore them. If Paradox did choose to include the African interior, for example, they would also have to include "what if" tech levels. And if they include those, why not include a pre-made "United States of Sub-Saharan Africa" as well. Paradox only has so much they can do.

Thankfully, Paradox realizes that the game they make will not be perfect for everyone. So they make their games moddable. If you think that there should be no PTI, or that the USSSA should be a country, then you can add them. It's not Paradox's job to add in every ahistorical outcome.

 

[knul]

I have to agree with you wholeheartedly here. The overall impression we get is indeed that of "If you want this done, do it yourself." There have been no end of (positive) suggestions put forward, which I believe could have been implemented relatively easily and to the absolute benefit of both the game and the Paradox gaming community.

Making the game this moddable takes a lot of effort. It is certainly not done because the developers think they have an easier job with it and "let the real work be done by the modding community".

The impression I get is that EU3 will be a polished game with everything the dev team wants in it will be there, but in case you disagree with their vision, you can mod it. They cannot cater to the wished of everyone, they have to make choices. That's why they make it so moddable.

Sure, a lot of suggestions are made. The mayority is bad, hard to implement or otherwise unsuitable. Some are good, but then again, choices must be made. The developers only have so much time and money, so not all possible features can be included. Also, they have stated that almost all features have been decided on months ago. Those good suggestion that are made now can't be included simply because they have no time left for those: they are hard working implementing the features they have decided on.

Nevertheless, the inevitable I told you so is no doubt en route. I will definitely purchase & play EUIII, but it will almost definitely be released as a rushed - and therefore, subpar - product. As I said in an earlier post, if we're in the alpha stage in September, how can we ship a finished, bug-free title circa January?

It's in Beta phase now: Beta testers. Also, EU3 is said to come out in the first quarter of 2007, so it could be march. That means they have about 6-7 months ahead. That's a lot of time to finish a game. How can you be so sure it is rushed? Nothing I've seen indicated that they are cutting corners or dropping features. It doesn't seem rushed to me. They are already working on it for about 2 years, so it's not like they havent't taken the time for it.

Deadlines are one thing, but having the EUII concept of no end of bugfixes to actually enable an almost unplayable game (out of the box) is absurd. Unfortunately, and I do stress unfortunately, I can see this being the case given the current timeframe, and so on.

From what I've seen, the newer games were a lot better in this regard than EU2. And if so, Paradox has an astounding good policy of making patches (for free) that fixes these problems. Recently, in no time there was a fix for Victoria: Revolutions.

Let's wait when the game comes out to say if Paradox have made a mess of it.

 

[Pioniere]

Terra incognita

I hope that Eu3 will manage to simulate some of the superstition and medieval mentality of the time. That is why I made this fuzz about the Terra incognita.

“West is west and east is east and never shall the two ends meet .Christopher Columbus”

 

[unmerged(58571)]

These areas were never explored in the time period, and furthermore, nobody in the period even had the capability to properly explore them.

But there were people living in those areas since long before the EU3 timeframe.

 

[unmerged(37697)]

But there were people living in those areas since long before the EU3 timeframe.

Oh, I wouldn't even bother lol. We've tried & failed; they're quite determined chaps these P'dox lackeys

 

[L'Afrique]

But there were people living in those areas since long before the EU3 timeframe.

But who would want to play as a uselss, isolated African tribe? I'd rather Paradox spend time on some feature that everyone will enjoy, rather than getting flags, shields, random monarch names, etc. for some unplayable one-province nation.

But then again, don't listen to me. I'm just a rabid Paradox fanboi, it's not like I could possibly support Paradox's decision because it makes sense.

 

[unmerged(37697)]

But who would want to play as a uselss, isolated African tribe? I'd rather Paradox spend time on some feature that everyone will enjoy, rather than getting flags, shields, random monarch names, etc. for some unplayable one-province nation.

No one's asking for any of these things; simply the ability to explore and colonise said area(s)

 

[Gwalcmai]

But there were people living in those areas since long before the EU3 timeframe.

But did they come out of those areas to influence the rest of the world? It can be argued that the areas marked PTI were not only inhospitable but also irrelevant.

I'd love seeing PTI disappear (those blobs of unknown jar my nerves), but well, if it's not going to happen, it's not going to happen.

 

[Gwalcmai]

No one's asking for any of these things; simply the ability to explore and colonise said area(s)

Regardless of the fact that those areas were not explored or colonized by any significant power during the time frame considered, right? And not because they didn't feel like it, just because they actually couldn't.

The Sahara or the Australian interior aren't colonized to any significant extent even now. People move around in those areas and scrape together a living. Other areas that are PTI in the game are occupied now, but because they produce something that was completely useless to people during the period but which technology made useful later. For instance, in Greenland there is a place that produced cryolite, a mineral required to make aluminium. It was first discovered in 1799, and a use for it not for nearly a century. Apart from cryolite, the place is pretty much irrelevant (and the town is deserted now the deposit ran out). What's the point of having a place like that be colonizable?

 

[unmerged(5822)]

But did they come out of those areas to influence the rest of the world? It can be argued that the areas marked PTI were not only inhospitable but also irrelevant.

I'd love seeing PTI disappear (those blobs of unknown jar my nerves), but well, if it's not going to happen, it's not going to happen.

I think the Mongolian PTI might be undesirable, though, as well as the one in the Urals. Siberia should otherwise remain as it is, however.

 

[Alexandre]

Regardless of the fact that those areas were not explored or colonized by any significant power during the time frame considered, right? And not because they didn't feel like it, just because they actually couldn't.

I don't understand why this has become the argument of supporters of PTI. It's just not true. For example, the Great Plains in North America were perfectly colonizable as soon as the tribes living there were driven out. A nation interested in doing so would have had no more trouble doing so than Russia had in conquering/colonizing Siberia.

I agree that there were areas that were in fact beyond the ability of 15th century Europe to colonize. I'd much rather see negative population growth and very low income undermine colonization or discourage economically unreasonable colonization than big white blobs that let me create ahistorical and artificial walls around my nation, allowing me to concentrate my armies at narrow corredors where PTI artificially forces my enemies to attack me.

Alexandre