The tech differnece requirement for vassals must go

[hhyy_best]

Now we have the 75% LA hat for oversea provinces.

And now we have only Christian can PU rule.

Combined with the tech efficiency difference requirement for vassals, it only mean one thing:

ROTW has NO alternative way to expand at all!

You either setup vassals in European and get 75 LA even you dip annex them. You cannot have colonial nations and cannot have trade companies there.

Or use your precious points to conquer your neighbors...

All those rules works perfectly for Europe: you can make your neighbors vassals, you can have colonial nations and trade companies and protectorates where you cannot setup vassals and have to have 75 LA.

But when things come to ROTW, all those settings are messed up. Why I cannot get my neighbors' vow but someone in the other side of the earth?


The solution to this problem is very simple: the vassal requirement should not be link to tech group but position: one should only be allowed to setup vassals in the same continent.

In addition.. we need trade companies in Europe for ROTW...

 

[kitemasaki]

Now we have the 75% LA hat for oversea provinces.

And now we have only Christian can PU rule.

Combined with the tech efficiency difference requirement for vassals, it only mean one thing:

ROTW has NO alternative way to expand at all!

You either setup vassals in European and get 75 LA even you dip annex them. You cannot have colonial nations and cannot have trade companies there.

Or use your precious points to conquer your neighbors...

All those rules works perfectly for Europe: you can make your neighbors vassals, you can have colonial nations and trade companies and protectorates where you cannot setup vassals and have to have 75 LA.

But when things come to ROTW, all those settings are messed up. Why I cannot get my neighbors' vow but someone in the other side of the earth?


The solution to this problem is very simple: the vassal requirement should not be link to tech group but position: one should only be allowed to setup vassals in the same continent.

In addition.. we need trade companies in Europe for ROTW...

You're absolutely wrong. You have even more ways to expand now, even with losing PU's (which didn't happen frequently since christendom is much larger/varied with nations than ROTW religion groups). Vassals are much easier to obtain now and to grow. Even if you wanted to speak to historical terms, which you have tried to bring up in posts in the past, you cannot try to justify PUs in most of the ROTW history. It was not something that occured as it did in Europe. That is a fact.

 

[hhyy_best]

"Even if you wanted to speak to historical terms, which you have tried to bring up in posts in the past, you cannot try to justify PUs in most of the ROTW history."

Did i try to justify PU at all now or before? I am actually quite happy that PU is gone for ROTW. I am just trying to state that the combinitation of all of those changes make it like this. You must think i am other people...

"Vassals are much easier to obtain now and to grow."

Yes, they are easier to feed, which is too ahistorical so i don't like it.
But easier to get? are you kidding? Try get a indian or east asia or afirica or north america vassal after westernization?

 

[Illianor123]

Once you Westernise, you can spend the saved points from changing techs groups on coring the lands yourself.

"Yes, they are easier to feed, which is too ahistorical so i don't like it"
So is Westernising with any ROTW country during this time period.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[blackchoas]

I mean you can still set up client states so I'm not entirely sure what the issue you is?

with client states you can annex territory via diplo points instead of admin as much as you want

If the issue is one of logic i would argue that having it based on where your capital is is just as silly, I mean the Ottomans are part of Europe technically does this mean they can't vassalize arabians? That would be pretty silly. Also Spain can't vassalize North Africans that doesn't seem right to me

 

[hhyy_best]

I mean you can still set up client states so I'm not entirely sure what the issue you is?

with client states you can annex territory via diplo points instead of admin as much as you want

If the issue is one of logic i would argue that having it based on where your capital is is just as silly, I mean the Ottomans are part of Europe technically does this mean they can't vassalize arabians? That would be pretty silly. Also Spain can't vassalize North Africans that doesn't seem right to me

client state needs level 22..... which is... after almost 2/3 of the game...

And for the Ottoman case, yeah, that need careful design. But that would be no worth than the LA: Arabic provinces for ottoman have 75 LA cap... But for north African, it should be considered Europe actually.....

 

[hhyy_best]

Once you Westernise, you can spend the saved points from changing techs groups on coring the lands yourself.

"Yes, they are easier to feed, which is too ahistorical so i don't like it"
So is Westernising with any ROTW country during this time period.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

That's true. If the game have a way for nations with 150+ tech speed to win france in late games, i will be happy to try not westernizing....

 

[kitemasaki]

That's true. If the game have a way for nations with 150+ tech speed to win france in late games, i will be happy to try not westernizing....

Funny you mention that. The game does have a way for nations with higher tech costs to get on even footing with nations such as France. Ready? It's called Westernizing. OOoooooh hmy:

 

[beckermt]

Well, this discussion devolved rather quickly.

OP: Can you restate your concerns clearly and concisely?

 

[Rajul]

The solution to this problem is very simple: the vassal requirement should not be link to tech group but position: one should only be allowed to setup vassals in the same continent.

Yes, of course yes. Should have been like that since COP release. This would have prevented horde and native protectorate madness without special rules, and of course what you are talking about.
I would just say "overseas" instead of "other continent". (so adjacent allows vassalization).

 

[Haccoude]

I don't really know what the issue is, AFAIK vassals are better than protectorates, and the tech group limitations is that better tech groups can worse tech groups only as vassals, while worse tech groups can have better tech groups as vassals rather than protectorates. So what exactly is the problem?

 

[hhyy_best]

I don't really know what the issue is, AFAIK vassals are better than protectorates, and the tech group limitations is that better tech groups can worse tech groups only as vassals, while worse tech groups can have better tech groups as vassals rather than protectorates. So what exactly is the problem?

The problem is that the westernized ROTW cannot make their neighbors vassals....

 

[hhyy_best]

Well, this discussion devolved rather quickly.

OP: Can you restate your concerns clearly and concisely?

The problem is that the westernized ROTW cannot make their neighbors vassals....

 

[MadDjinn]

no worries.

Given the speed of westernization in 1.8, your neighbours will soon be westernized like you and then you can vassal them.

 

[hhyy_best]

no worries.

Given the speed of westernization in 1.8, your neighbours will soon be westernized like you and then you can vassal them.

hmm, good point, but only one of my neighbours tried westernization in 50 years...... maybe just bad luck

 

[Karabas1543]

Protectorate them, wait a while. They will westernize and then you vassalize therm. Worked several times for me since the AI is more willing to westernize.

However, the problem in RotW still remains that one cannot diplovassalize outside of one's religion.

 

[hhyy_best]

Protectorate them, wait a while. They will westernize and then you vassalize therm. Worked several times for me since the AI is more willing to westernize.

However, the problem in RotW still remains that one cannot diplovassalize outside of one's religion.

Yeah, due to the fact that now you can click the button, i guess PI want to enable that and just forgot to remove the success chance modifier

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Once you Westernise, you can spend the saved points from changing techs groups on coring the lands yourself.

"Yes, they are easier to feed, which is too ahistorical so i don't like it"
So is Westernising with any ROTW country during this time period.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Most people don't like shooting themselves in the foot via limiting point expenditure to one (important) category.

Fortunately, you don't have to do so. Vassals that are such before westernizing will stay vassals after and can be fed in the same manner. Vassals can be inherited through full-annexing the overlord, and this includes "lower" tech group vassals. Failing that, there are hordes and westernized nations (AI nations actually westernize in 1.8 thankfully) to use.

The alternative is to basically only tech military most of the time, if you can manage to put enough points into expansion.